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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Wanna fix your lift pump problems?

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) what is this?

Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Is this noise normal?

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Not an expert but...

Ken,



It sounds like your LP is dead. When mine went dead, mine did not buzz when the key was turned. It did nothing. That is a good indicator. But then again, I could be wrong, but I doubt it in this case (LP) only. Time to go see the st... woops, dealer.



PS. I've read all posts, and am glad to add my name to the list. I'm keeping my eye glued to this discussion, because I'll be making some changes to my truck now that its paid off. I love the email notification option when making a reply!



- JyRO
 
Coulda Woulda Shoulda.....

It's really too bad that Cummins and Bosch didn't collaborate a little more on the VP44 pump. They could have mated the design of the transfer pump section from the old Cummins PT pumps with the high pressure section of the Bosch VP44. The transfer pumps in those PT pumps never gave up the ghost, and they lifted and drew the fuel a lot further than we do on our Dodges!



The last Cummins I had with a PT fuel system on it (93 Pete, N14 Cummins) went over 700,000 miles before the first overhaul, at which time the PT pump wasn't even touched. The guy I sold the truck to is still running it up and down the road, but I don't know if he ever had to have any work done on the PT pump.



Not helpful information, but just food for thought.
 
Does anyone know if the lift pump gives any warnings before she dies... ??



Also... does the pump just get up and quit or does it die a slow painful death... ??





Gordon:D
 
mine seemed to die a slow death. I noticed the buzzing noise went away. Then the truck started "bucking" and now as soon as I get the truck rolling, it dies, it will idle fine, no power as soon as you put your foot in it.
 
I was talking to the dealer where I bought my truck from. :-{}



I asked him about moving my lift pump to different location and he said there is a good chance DC would void the warranty on it and the VP44... . :(



I asked if I left that area well enough alone but put some kind of a push pump back at the tank to feed the OEM lift pump and he said that would not present a problem.



Also double checked with him about installing a FP gauge to make sure that it too would not interfere with the warranty.



I am curious to hear if any one out there has had any warranty disputes after making similar mods.





Gordon... . :)
 
Behr... if you add a pusher you'll have higher than recommended DC pressures and your warranty should be voided more so than relocating the single pump. If it comes down to DC having to pay $2000, you'd better not have anything different and I'd bet that lift pump will come into question if your dealer has any doubts about anything. Relocating a lift pump a few feet closer while keeping all the same operating parameters of the OEM design more or less should be... "less harmless". Adding a pusher takes the whole system to a different level of performance. For someone to say a pusher is OK but OEM pump relocation isn't... sounds kinda fishy. Watch out. I'd get that in writing from them.
 
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I agree with Neil. Before you do anything get it in writing. I just use a Briar Hooper manual FG to check mine every so often. If the LP fails or it takes out the VP44 that is what my 5 year 100K warranty is for. After the warranty is up I will worry about modifying the system. I had a 2000 that I drove a couple of thousand miles with a dead lift pump and it was replaced under warranty and the VP-44 continued to work fine :confused:
 
Neil and Pit Bul... . you feel that even if I hook up a FP gauge that even might have an affect on DC warranty... . ??



I know what you are saying pitbull... once the warranty is up then fine... make the mods.



Don;t get me wrong... the truck is running fine... . no complaints... but its just when you see the number of LP failures. Either DC and Bosch messed up..... or the Carter OEM pump is just not up to what its needed to do.



I just do not want to see myself standed up in the north country on the side of the road.



Gordon
 
Thats the whole catch 22 here Behr. Something as simple as adding a pressure gauge could cause some dealers to say that you tampered with the integrity of the product and therefore your warranty is void. Its kinda a cheap way out... and rather cruel as well as being a little on the harsh side. But it is possible. Not all dealers look at it the same way. I really wish it was more uniform... I wish all dealers viewed it the same way. That could be good and bad but at least it could be understood.



On the other hand... a gauge can be easily removed if need be... as long as the install isn't something elaborate that requires alot of mutilation of the stock look. Dont get wild. Plus you gotta look out for yourself and your own peace of mind. You gotta protect yourself to some extent to keep from walking.



Don't expect DC or Cummins to throw hands in the air and say "Yes... we admit... we chose a bad pump and we will take care of everything and fix them all". It wont happen and they will stand by the OEM design when warranty is in question... whether what you did is good or not. Hopefully... carefully chosen modifications will prevent future failure and you wont need warranty at all. Thats the vision I cling to. :)



Its a judgement call most will have to make. The hassle of being stranded in the middle of nowhere with a 40 fiver and losing 3-4 days of a vacation has to be worth some $$$. At that point I wouldn't care if the VP was free or not. My time and safety has more value than a fuel injection pump.
 
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Ncostello..... well... . what you told me is not exactly what I wanted to hear... . but truth of the matter is you are right. Mmmmm... not fair... I agree.



Is there a way that a temp gauge can be hooked up... ??



I just about died when I got the price of a LP up here. Hate to see what the price will be by the time my warranty runs out. :--)





Gordon
 
About time for my 2¢.........

The only thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that the stock fuel filter is rated at 45 GPH. The stock 3/8" fuel line can easily carry this. Until the filter is addressed I don't see where larger fuel lines will be of any benefit.



A larger line will handle more volume, unless a lift pump is totally out, a positive pressure means adequate volume is being supplied.



The way I see it reliability is the issue. The stock location is no good and that contributes greatly to the failure of these pumps. Simply moving the stock pump with no other modifications should help its survivability. Or for those who prefer a pusher that will help the stock pump also. Although for some the added pressure from two pumps seem to scare some people off.



Do what your comfortable with and share your ideas. Just don't try and say your idea is the best, there is more than one solution to this problem.



Garrett
 
Well, what the heck, I'll throw our experiences into this pile as well.



Since us Canucks seem to have an even worse time of lift pump failures than our southern cousins, I took the time to pull apart 11 failed pumps that were sitting at my local Dodge dealership. In 8 cases, we discovered that the internal bypass had been well beaten, and that the pumps were kicking into a constant bypass mode, thus reducing fuel pressures to below minimum requirements. 2 of the other cases were related to bushing failure, and the 3rd was indeterminate.



Since the bypass valve was the obvious failure point in most cases, we decided (after talking with Carter and another pump manufacturer) that the long draw from the fuel tank was not causing the problem, but high outlet pressure on the lift pump was cauing the bypass to function more than it was designed to function. We then theorized that the restrictive lines/banjos from lift pump to injection pump was our problem. Techs from Carter agreed with us.



As a favor to me, the local Dodge dealer installed some high flow bolts on trucks that were seeing an inordinate number of lift pump failures. These were generally trucks used in heavy towing, and both were stock powered units. Lift pump longevity went from 20K to 80K, with no failure thus far.



We thought we had it beat, but after putting EZs and DD2's on trucks, the lift pumps began failing again. Trucks with EZs and RV275s appeared to be just fine. So, against my better judgement (pusher assemblies in ag equipment have a terrible reliability record), we tried a couple pusher assemblies using Carter pumps. Lift pump longevity seemed to be better, although pressures did begin dropping, however we ran into pusher failures in our harsh climate. The road salt and water ate the guts of the pusher pumps.



Then we switched to using Holley Black pumps, mounted in the stock location, and using 1/2 ID lines from the Black pump up to the injection pump. Last year, this worked like mad. We've got several 500 HP+ trucks, a couple with over 100,000 miles on them, and pressures are as good as the day they were installed. Again, we thought we had it beat.



Early this year, we attempted another 10 installs of Holley blacks with large lines. 8 of these installs were DOB (dead out of box). Unfortunately, after contacting Holley, we received the company line that their pumps weren't rated for diesel fuel, and as such, their warranty would not be honored. We pulled apart a couple pumps, and discovered that the internal bypass valves had some very rough edges that needed cleaning up and the bypass assemblies needed to be cleaned up with carb cleaner as the valves would stick open. After performing the procedure on a couple pumps, pressures went back to 16PSI at idle, 14 at WOT on 400HP+ trucks. But the experience with Holley has left us with a bad taste in our mouths. Two of our customers felt the same way, so they installed the Holley kits with factory lift pumps, and discovered that pressures were 16 PSI at idle, 12 WOT on their 375 HP trucks. Each has been running with this assembly on their trucks for ~20K now, and pressures have not begun to back down.



The Black changeover kits are a real bear to install on a factory lift pump equipped truck, so we found some custom 12mm to -8 fittings whose internal IDs are larger than any commercially available fittings. We're using these fittings in concert with 90 degree sweeps and -8 braided line, and feel this rigging will work well to the 375 HP mark. We don't feel that there is anywhere near enough vacuum being drawn by the factory lift at these horsepower levels to damage the pump.



For guys over the 375 mark, talks with Product Engineering out of California lead us to believe that these pumps will work great in our application. The PE pumps can draw long distances, as long as their inlet is no more than 1. 5 feet above the pickup, are warrantied for 2 years in diesel fuel applications, and are simply the best built pump I've seen in a long time. We're building a bracket mount the pumps on the frame rail, under the hood for ease of hookup as well as protection from the elements, and the stock line size from the tank to the lift pump will be plenty large enough to supply all the fuel the pump wants. The aforementioned -8 lines will be used to supply from lift pump to the injector pump.
 
This is a very informative thread. Ron S's info is very interesting and provides some insight into the problems and solutions. The question I have now is which PE pump were they looking at.
 
Rod, great post, I am encouraged by the testing you have done and agree that you have come up with a winning combination, the research and development of the fuel supply problem has been done justice and you need to be commended with a fine job.



Are you going to make a kit avail for the members so they dont have to hunt up parts? If you do they will be in huge demand.



GREAT JOB ROD :) :) :)
 
Originally posted by canblue

The question I have now is which PE pump were they looking at.



We're going with the 4200 pump, as PE feels this is better pump for our application. As well, others are using the PE pump with some success. The 4100 looks like it will hold promise for the 03 fuel system.
 
Originally posted by Whitmore

Are you going to make a kit avail for the members so they dont have to hunt up parts? If you do they will be in huge demand.



We were supposed to have a kit ready 3 weeks ago, but running true to Wildcat luck, we tore the transmission out of our own test truck. Thats back together again, and now we're just waiting on the sweeps to come in. The PE system should be along in a couple more weeks.



BTW, Kevin, I like your rigging as well. I am in agreement with everyone else that the lift pumps need to be as close to the fuel tank as possible, in an ideal world. The real world, especially the harsh climate up here with road salt and water, just eliminates that as an option.



Rod
 
Rod,

You are doing a great job on this. I have a couple of questions. I have heard that the maximum pressure that is prefferable to the VP44 is in the neighborhood of 15psi and no more than 18 - 20 psi. Can you confirm this? What maximum pressures are you seeing in using the PE4200 pump?



I am stock except for an EZ and I probably won't go any more as I tend to tow a lot. I would prefer not to keep adding new stuff and upping power and fighting EGTs. I know the time is coming when I will have to replace the stock lift pump (on my second one now) and I would like to go with your replacement when it is available. Any idea when your kit will be available?



Thanks for the info and keep up the good work!:D
 
I looked at that pump and the 4200 says 18-20 PSI and the 4100 is 12-15 PSI.



If we used the 4200 near the tank, would the PSI be a little lower up by the inj. Pump or should we use the 4100 to keep the PSI at 15?



I was told by Bosch that we shouldn't have more than 15 head PSI at the inj. Pump. This from an engineer from germany... .



Right now I have the 2 carters and I have high PSI (about 20 I think) and I was looking for a regulator but if this is better, would the 4100 keep 15 PSI at the inj. Pump if mounted by the tank?
 
Rod, This doesnt apply to me with my setup but for oem tank users ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... are you using the bigger line all the way into the tank or are you splicing into the existing pickup? I hope this includes a larger bore pickup as well.



Also just to confirm that I am reading your setup correctly... ... ... ... . the PE pump is being used as a stand alone pump in replacement of the oem L/P right? And if it is are you using the oem wireing lead driven by the ecm?



cheers, Kevin
 
To All- A lot of good ideas, but, does anyone ahve a chaeper price than the dealer for the OEm pump? I will be paying $222 US for a new pump. The way I read this, most of you say the pump will go out again. The dealer asked me when I called for the VIN ( I understand that to get the correct pump) Then they asked for my mileage. Why? The truck has 75K and I bought it in Feb 98, so I understand my warrenty is over, but why the questions from the dealer? Any ideas?

Unless someone convinces me strongly, I feel the OEM pump in the stock location works very well, I have puled with the truck since day 1 and love it!!



Ken
 
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