Water injection

[moparguy]

With predictions of $5. 00 gallon gasoline I'm thinking $6. 00 diesel in the next couple of years could happen. This has started me pondering using something other than 100% diesel which prompts this thread. The high price of diesel has already caused the wife and I to only use the diesels when needed to pull trailers, but I'd sure like to change that.



Over the years others have mused about utilizing a water injection system when running wvo or wmo to keep the combustion chamber and injector tips clean as opposed to using it as a power adder or for egt temp control.



Just wondering if anyone has actually tried this. With fuel headed higher, I'm thinking of driving the 95 more while using one of the alt. fuels. However with anything short of making B100 I worry about the conquiences. If water injection will keep things steam cleaned, it may be a worthwhile addition for that reason alone.



Any thoughts?

 

[Gonzo 1066]

Don't know about mileage claims on trucks. I do know that on my pulling tractors there is a LOT of horse power in water and alky mix. This should make the fuel go further in any rig. IT WORKS.

 

[Sticks]

You might be better going with a propane or LNG/PNG conversion.

The Water/Meth will only function when you are at higher boost levels - 15+, higher if you are running straight water. Otherwise you will get combustion quench and potential hydrolock.

As far as mileage increases, there may or may not be any, it is all a matter of how long you are driving at the activation boost levels. When you factor in the cost of Methanol if you are running it as a mix, you are probably falling behind when you think of it as $$$ per mile.

Yes it will steam clean the cylinders and valves which is not so much of an issue with proper bio fuels. Where people run into trouble is all the crap that gets dislodged in their fuel lines and damages the pumps and injectors.

Bio fuel is the devil and a super aggressive fuel system cleaner. IIRC there was also an issue with lubricity in the bio fuel. Unless things have markedly improved in the last 5 years, the US still has no official specs and requirements for bio fuel, and the fuel injection manufacturers got together as a whole and gave a big thumbs down to it in regards to warranties.

On a brandy new vehicle I might run it, with the proper additional filtration and additives. On an older vehicle, I'd be replacing every single part of the fuel system from the tank to the cylinder, along with making the upgrades.

If you look at the vehicles that are currently made, there are LNG/PNG, FLex Fuel, Straight Ethanol, and Diesel. Nobody has made a vehicle designed for Bio. That's gotta tell you something.

 

[DAWG-1]

I have a Brand New Snow Perfomance stage 2 water / methonal injection kit complete for sale. 425-355-3915 or -- email address removed --. Thanks, Saqm.

 

[Sticks]

I have a Brand New Snow Perfomance stage 2 water / methonal injection kit complete for sale. 425-355-3915 or -- email address removed --. Thanks, Saqm.

May I inquire why you are selling?

 

[DAWG-1]

I purchased the kit kit a couple of years back when I had a different plan. I was led to believe my surgerys would allow me to do more. Thanks, Sam.

 

[subodh]

if you look at snow i belive its possible to have a power setting for hp gain and one for

economy/mpg gain.

in theory water will make the turbo spin faster and is it spins faster with not that

xtra fuel isnt it going to give abit mpg then?

and the water cleans your cylinderwalls pistons on the way out

and a clean engine will work better!

so yes it will give mpg but it is a investment. .

belive ive read alot about this on dtr somtime in the past

or simply searth for water/meth. .

if your handy you could build your own

 

[Gonzo 1066]

if you look at snow i belive its possible to have a power setting for hp gain and one for

economy/mpg gain.

in theory water will make the turbo spin faster and is it spins faster with not that

xtra fuel isnt it going to give abit mpg then?

and the water cleans your cylinderwalls pistons on the way out

and a clean engine will work better!

so yes it will give mpg but it is a investment. .

belive ive read alot about this on dtr somtime in the past

or simply searth for water/meth. .

if your handy you could build your own

The first water injections systems I built were very simple, Just a container for the fluid (that will withstand pressure of manifold) a bottom outlet and a top inlet. From the pressure side of the turbo run a small line to the top of the fluid tank. From the bottom of the tank run a line to a nozzle that sprays into the intake before he turbo. Simple, when you make manifold pressure the intake will be misted with water. When you let off of the throttle the mist stops. This is not as hy tec as some of the manufactured systems but it works.

 

[ENafziger]

For maximum cleaning and fuel economy benefit, I'd suggest the progressive controller from Cooling Mist.

Coolingmist Water Injection, alcohol injection and Methanol Injection systems

You can easily adjust the min and max setpoint for boost or egt, and it will be progressive between the two. This obviously allows for much greater benefit across most peoples' driving cycles.

--Eric

 

[Sticks]

Wow, Cooling mist sure does make an issue of "Plastic" fittings. DOT and OTR trucks do not seem to have a problem with them on the brake systems.

Prices are competitive with Snow Performance. Have not tried Cooling Mist, or know anyone that has. I have had my Snow set up for 7 or 8 years now, no problems.

 

[MChrist]

I was on the phone with Labonte Performance yesterday, asking them about their systems. I really like their 250 psi pump and the fact that they use solenoids to interrupt water flow. This eliminates the dribble when other's pumps shut off. They are on YouTube so you can see the comparison for yourself.
Dan was the guy I talked to, and he said that the best mpg gain is using 50/50 meth/water. Claims he has an RV transporter customer getting 20 mpg towing. I personally find it hard to believe, but I don't know for sure, either.

 

[Sticks]

Remember, when you start adding anything other than water to the mix, you need to start thinking Dollars per gallon.

When my water/meth injection runs full time climbing a hill, it gets about 3 miles to the gallon @ 60mph. I run a 75/25 mix of w/m. That boils down to an additional $4 for a 8 mile climb up a pass.

I don't have time or the motivation to do the math on a w/m kit running full time and xxml per minuet to figure the additional cost for a 500 mile cruising range per 35 gallon tank of fuel, let alone what the additional weight of a 20-40 gallon tank of w/m mix is going to do.

IMO, w/m injection is an "As Needed" accessory to keep EGTs in the safe zone when the engine is under heavy load, and should in no way be considered to increase MPG of the engine.

You want better mileage, better tires (rolling resistance), aerodynamics of the truck and what you are towing, and proper engine tuning for what it is being used for.

 

[MChrist]

In my case, I would be afraid that the water turning to steam in the cylinder would increase pressure enough to blow my head gasket. I run at around 44 psi as it is, which seems to be close to max for stock head bolts. If memory serves, water expands 1600X when turning to steam. I would think that would have to increase cylinder pressure a lot, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Sticks]

It is not really steam. It is just really humid air going into the combustion chamber. The W/M evaporates making the air more dense and boost pressures increase around 3-4 psi.

 

[MChrist]

3-4 more psi may be the hair that breaks the camel's head gasket... While I agree that it's just humid air going into the cylinder, when it compresses and ignites with fuel, wouldn't it become steam then? My thinking is that the water droplets turn to steam, expanding 1600X. I'm still picturing that increasing cylinder pressure quite a bit.

 

[Sticks]

Be interesting to see the difference if one could install a pressure gauge in the cylinder while running.

Hard to do this on a Cummins as we have no glow plugs.

 

[MChrist]

Sticks, I notice you have ARP studs and a similar turbo setup. Did you do the studs preventively, or by necessity? How much boost does your setup give?
Thanks

 

[Sticks]

After nearly 7 years of saving money to upgrade my intake system, I finally opted for twins at the last minuet instead of a larger single. After I received them, and continued doing more research, my head gasket became a risk factor, so I ordered up the studs. I did the install of the twins, studs, injectors and exhaust all in 1 - 13 hour day.



I have yet to break 50 psi (IIRC the highest I got was 46ish and that was at high altitude... which boggled me). I also have yet to get the truck on a dyno other than for emissions, and the tires broke loose (disturbing sound while in the waiting room). Normal city driving I usually peak @ 30-35psi.



I am probably over aired now, but my emissions opacity was 4% & under (better than stock) and that was with the Edge Comp on.



Even when I have flogged her getting on a highway (0-80 as quick as I can row the gears) with the comp on 5x5, I have yet to breach the 1300* mark on the EGT.



Running unloaded up I-70 over Eisenhower I rarely break 1k* on the EGT so my W/M injection is more for entertainment value to watch the EGT drop 200* while pulling a 6%+ grade with the cruise control set @ 70.



Flat highway driving (more like rolling hills) runs 8-10 psi @ 70mph and 600* - 800*. @ 80mph on one trip I was holding 20psi and 700*-900*, which seemed a bit high boost wise, but there was a bit of a head wind.



I wanted to set my truck up for towing (old pipe dream) and I think I have it now. I could probably get away with 120 injectors instead of the 100 and still have manageable EGTs.

 

[AHolt]

Google CNG conversion Kit.

They sell a home kit. Couple years ago

diesel power had a article on Duramax, 40 mpg.

 

[MChrist]

Sticks, I appreciate the data. Basically mirrors my #s. Except my twins took me 12 hours by themselves!
I still have my converter in my stock exhaust, and I see you have a Rip Rook 4". I assume no converter and still passed emissions?