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Welding on truck

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Murle, I was welding for Navship in the 70's all welds were NDTed and/or sonic tested as well as x-rayed. If you read, learn and have a good steady hand you MAY be possibly a decent weldor... yes WELDOR as welder is the machine not the craftsman. My old buddy Ron worked the nukes from coast to coast and that guy would chat with you while doing some of the best welds I have ever seen... any position! On disconnecting batteries I never have and don't see a need to as the current will not "stray" from it's course i. e. electrode to ground. I heard this fear of cooking computers but have never seen or done it.

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9535hundred
 
Unhook the batteries???? Break out the double ought jumper cables and some 1/4" jet and go at it #ad
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So, as I understand the replies regarding this topic, welding without disconnecting the battery cables on a vehicle could, might, will or has fried an onboard computer. I'm certainly pleased that the "Law of Averges" hasn't caught up to me thus far and will disconnect for piece of mind, if for no other reason. Dave
 
I was a skeptic till damage happened to me, defiantly from welding,both leads on the tailgate. Another thing to consider is that almost every owners, service and repair manual for every newer rig, including tractors, that I've seen cautions against it. Do you think they would waste their time writing the caution if there was no reason?
 
Originally posted by OO:
Unhook the batteries???? Break out the double ought jumper cables and some 1/4" jet and go at it #ad
#ad
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I worked with an old timer who built a welding machine, it was an old 12 h. p. Kohler engine with a truck generator V belted to it! It worked, but I've seen better welds. This guy was a kick, his grandson got a pocket knife and cut a new garden hose into pieces. . none over about 2 feet. Well, Clyde's way of teaching the boy was to cut his bicycle into little pieces!



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9535hundred
 
Mike, I've seen where folks have made excellent welders out of the chargers they use to start jet airliners. You can pick them up surplus and wire in a rheostat then you're set.

As for cutting up the bicycle, seems a little severe. I would have given the kid a tube of superglue and told him to put the hose back together till it didn't leak !!
 
Ok, I guess I'll jump in on this one! My craft is "power mechanic" I work on the transmission,distribution,control and protection equipment for a utility company. The problem of "welding" on a automobile comes from "step potential" When you look at the diagrams of the wiring harness you will notice an abundance of "grounds". when the return lead for your welder is attached and you strike an arc the current flows thru the path of least resistance. The steel frame at times may not be that path. if the path of the current finds happens to be thru some sensitive electronics(via the "Ground" leads) AND the frame path is of sufficent resistance "Step voltages" (Ohm's Law) will result thru the "alternate path" and POOF! no computer! Other problems exist with TIG machines and the high frequency used to start the arc. If componets in the electronics have reactances either capacitive or inductive odd voltages may result and again destroy sensitive parts. Sometimes we put our money down and take our chances. I belive that you might still destroy your computer even if you lift you battery leads. Some weldors have responded to this forum. Their rigs are well "bonded" and they weld on a surface that provides a consistant return path.
Rich

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2001. 5 2500 ETH/DEE 4x4,Patriot Blue over Silver,Camper pkg, Trailerpkg,3. 54LSD, Agate Leather,Stainless Smitty Bars,Tow hooks,Amsoil... ... ... :) Except snowplow!
 
I work at a shop where we weld on big rigs all the time. We don't disconnect the batteries but we DO disconnect the computer and thats all the time. It took only one time to learn. #ad


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Rusty Mule 97 3500 5 Speed C/C 68,000miles 25,000# POP-UP HITCH, CAT GUTTED "MULE HAULER"
 
I am a Mecahnical Engineer (of the rare hands on variety) and have sectioned several frames in my day - I used to rebuild wrecks.

I find some of the 'don't weld between the frame rails' comments humorous, these are old wive's tales.

I have welded lotsa frames. Usually, the battery is out of the vehicle at the time for other reasons. I've welded frames on trucks with the batteries hooked up tho too. I had no problems but can see where stray current could raise havok. I usually try to disconnect the battery as cheap insurance.

I am one of 2 people who weld at the R&D Fuel Cell company that I work for, with regard to the High Frequency on the TIG welder - that is a bunch of BS that Miller (or whoever) puts in the manuals to cover their asses. I almost wasn't allowed to hook up our nice new TIG at work as a result of this BS, luckily, I talked to the right guy at Miller and was clued into the fact that grounding the chassis of the welder would prevent any and all potential damage to nearby electronics from the High Frequency on the TIG.

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91. 5 CTD 4X4, 5" Stacks, Tweaked Pump, 33" Boots (in the summer), Unlimited Slip,
Big, Bad Dodge
 
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I weld for my own stuff, not professionally, so I am speaking in terms of the "amature" weldOr and what basic stuff he should know.

Electricity will flow through the path of least resistance. So for both the best weld AND keeping the current where it belongs, the weldEr ground cable should be close to the weld being laid down. Disconnecting the battery isn't going to save the computer, since its grounded. While it sounds like a good precaution, I have yet to see any solid proof and factual details of how welding shoots the computer. That said, better safe than sorry, so unplug the computer at its harness.

As far as frame welding goes, its generally accepted as a taboo on most high tensile frames, but it can be done if ya use the proper stuff. If you stick weld, which is best (i think) for large hitches etc, keep in mind the structure of the weld and the area around it on the frame. Drilling the frame is about as bad, given that most frames that are labelled not to be welded are also labelled not to be drilled.

The comment on welding along the frame not across it is dead on, for a number of reasons. If you find that weld across the frame is necessary, weld a plate along the frame, and weld across it for the project. Use a "stitch weld", beads of 2-3" long and breaks of 1-3" between. This shortens the stress area and reduces the possibility of fracture. Do NOT weld across the ends of the plate, as this defeats the purpose of having a plate. Welds across the frame produce a lateral weak point. Welds along the frame create a longitudinal weak point, which is not as likely to fracture.

Next, if you stick weld, I recommend getting one of the free books mentioned, or invest a bit of cash, and get a good book. I have one pocket welding manual, and one textbook. Both have good info. Also, for a frame weld, find a good 70 series rod; I prefer a 7018. 70 is the tensile strngth in thousands, 18 is the position and coating of the rod. 1 is a general purpose rod, can be used in horiz, vert, and OH welds. 8 is a low hydrogen coating, which aids in a strong weld.

For welding horizontally, you need a bit of practice. Welding vertical, the pro's go from bottom to top, its a stronger weld. Guys like me run top to bottom, allowing the puddle to sit on the tip of the rod. Its not a great way to weld, but it gets the job done. Overhead welding takes lots of patience, practice and stamina. I recommend avoiding it unless you MUST do it. Of course, if you plate the frame, one of the welds will be on the bottom of the plate. Keep in mind, puddled metal is affected by gravity just like all else. Move at a decent rate, and keep the heat in one spot enough to melt the steel, but fast enough to allow it to solidify quickly. Yeah, its a practiced art, so go practice.

Speaking of puddles, I have found that if I keep a steady hand, and observe the puddle, it makes a nice whirlpool motion. If it does this, the weld will come out picture perfect. Some things that will screw ya up: Oils, dirt, rust, etc. The best tool a weldOr has is a nice hand held power grinder. Use it. Clean metal is the key. And that frame under your truck? Its dirty... has paint all over it. Thats gonna suck when ya try to weld it.

Good luck, and make sure you factor in the the possibility that its just easier to hire a pro.

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Y2K 2500 QC Sport 4x4 LWB
72 Dart 340
89 LeBaron GTC 2. 2 TI
 
I have never been called a WELDOR. Here in Texas we are WELDERS. Must be a Yankee thing. Of course a Yankee is anything above the Red River. #ad


[This message has been edited by Murle (edited 03-27-2001). ]
 
Originally posted by Big-D:
Max340, What a write up!!! Thanks for taking the time and energy to pass on your knowledge and experience. Lots of good information.

I for one would like to ask about grounding the weldEr properly. I have never done that and always felt the electrical supply (240 VAC)ground to earth was providing any necesary grounding of the machine. Can you voice a comment on what benefits are derived from grounding the machine? Is it for operator safety or benefit of the internal workings of the welder?
Thanks! Dave


This is my first post so please bear with a newby. I work for an outfit with 5800 vehicles. I have seen about 8 computers fried due to welding. Disconnecting the batteries is the safest. I know that Mac Tools sells a "computer saver" that clamps to both terminals of the battery and soaks up the crazy spikes that can damage the computer. It is about $80.
 
Oops forgot the signature Oh Well!

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01. 5 QC ETH/DEE 4X4 LB intense blue sport, everything but dead cow and cab lights.
 
Miller and Air Liquide (Liquid Air) both suggested that we ground the welder chassis with a 7' grounding rod (we drilled ours right through our slab) that's really all.

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91. 5 CTD 4X4, 5" Stacks, Tweaked Pump, 33" Boots (in the summer), Unlimited Slip,
Big, Bad Dodge
 
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Speaking of weldErs, the on/off switch is missing on a "snapon" 120Volt , 140 Amp[continous duty, or is it called 100%duty cycle}, I bought from a fellow. He just wired it direct so that when its plugged in its on. I don't like that and want to install a switch-circuit breaker. The guy I got it from "said" it was a 30amp breaker, but I lack confidence in his views. A Snap On they say its a manufacturer special order item at $91. 00 + shipping.
Anyone have one so you can tell me for sure what amp. the circuit breaker/switch is. Any one have a suggestion for a good replacement. If I cant find something better I will just wire in a regular circuit breaker.

Thanks for any advice

Vaughn
 
Max340, What a write up!!! Thanks for taking the time and energy to pass on your knowledge and experience. Lots of good information.

I for one would like to ask about grounding the weldEr properly. I have never done that and always felt the electrical supply (240 VAC)ground to earth was providing any necesary grounding of the machine. Can you voice a comment on what benefits are derived from grounding the machine? Is it for operator safety or benefit of the internal workings of the welder?
Thanks! Dave
 
The welding machine will have a tag on it telling you how many amps it draws, you must be at or SLIGHTLY above that amperage on you switchs rating. As far as 100% duty cycle, I have never heard of such a thing! I would check into that more.

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9535hundred
 
Snapon claims 100% duty cycle for their top welders, but sure couldn't prove it by me. I can barely use the thing--never mind understand it. Take a look at their top couple welders on www.snapon.com

Vaughn
 
Big-D, I think perhaps your "ground" and my "ground" are different. THe welder itself will be grounded through tis plug. My welder is one of those little Lincoln buzz boxes with the lopped off corners, a cheap decent welder. It is 240AC and has a three prong plug. It sounded like that was your question. My reference was to the ground side of the welding cables themselves. As to them, it is absolutely necessary to take the time and get a good ground on the metal you are welding, as any resistance tends to lower good penetration, since it lowers the amount of amperage arcing. Thats where the hand held grinder comes in.

Did that answer your question?
 
Max340,

I'm with you one hundred percent on the ground plug for the AC supply. However, on my both my L-TEC Mig weldEr and my Dialarc AC/DC weldEr there is a ground lug on the chasis frame.

As mentioned, I have never grounded either of these weldEr's to this lug before. I have welded out doors, on the ground and in the rain without getting shocked. Just lucky perhaps, but have always thought I should hook a good ground, separate from the wall outlet to this lug for operator safety. Have you done that? If so, for what reason is my question. Thanks again.
Dave
 
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