Well, my luck just ran out...time for new injectors

[JReichenbach]

What is the $375.00 x 2 clean and dirty HPCR?

 

[Crunch]

Unfortunate reality of the business model and practices when a substandard product cost significantly more than new when purchased thru certain channels. When they said they were warrantied for 12 months did that INCLUDE the labor to swap them if they do go bad? If it did not you might might find yourself on the hook for a $300-500 bill per injector to use that warranty. Again, this is the reality and cost we deal with to offload the responsibility and work. If that works for you then it is a good solution.

Given how simple it is to change these injectors with some basic hand tools, you could have bought new, had a better product, learned some new skills, and had some satisfaction and peace of mind. Hope the choice works out well for you.

I seriously doubt that labor is included in the warranty. I don't know of too many businesses in any industry that include labor costs with a warranty. I also realize that I could have shopped around and found injectors at a better price. But I don't know anyone locally that sells them, and other than Geno's, would not really trust someone I found selling them on the Internet.

And believe me, I would love to have been able to change out these injectors myself. It is something that is well within my capacity to learn. But having never held an injector in my hand before, this isn't a job that I would have attempted on the fly. I understand what you are saying about offloading the responsibility and work. But before doing it myself, I would want to have participated in the process by assisting a well established expert several times so as to understand exactly what is involved, what to expect and what complications and surprises may be in store. I agree that it is far better to know your vehicle and do the work yourself whenever possible. I have a decent set of tools, am mechanically inclined and like doing that kind of work. But some jobs, such as those that require a lift, pulling the engine or are better done when one has a good understanding of what is going on are the jobs I will offload. It's the age old question of time vs. money. I probably could have changed the injectors myself. But I couldn't have done it in the time the Cummins shop did it. I couldn't have done as good of a job that they did, and if something went wrong there is a good chance that I might not be able to rectify the problem correctly. But but by having the Cummins shop do the work I was able to rent a car, get out of town to be with family and come back to a truck that was up and running because someone more competent than I did the work. Yes, I paid money in order to gain time. But that money also bought a measure of peace of mind.

What is the $375.00 x 2 clean and dirty HPCR?

I think that was something they entered into the computer to account for the core charge (clean) and core refund (dirty). Because they did the work and had all six injectors, all that was needed was a single instance ($375 and -$375) to cover the value for that field in the database. If I had bought the injectors and taken them with me the invoice probably would have read HPCR Injectors $375 x 6 and HPCR Injectors -$375 x 6.

 

[cerberusiam]

Like I said before, what criteria is being used to gauge failure. If I can buy new for the same price as reman then the reman had better exhibit the same quality.

Reman compared to new, the remans do not consistently meet even the sloppy criteria of production run NEW injectors. This has consequences down the line that will add to cost. Cannot look at just number of sales and number of returns, there must be a quality modifier in there somewhere for a fair comparison.

 

[TCDiesel]

Like I said before, what criteria is being used to gauge failure. If I can buy new for the same price as reman then the reman had better exhibit the same quality.

Reman compared to new, the remans do not consistently meet even the sloppy criteria of production run NEW injectors. This has consequences down the line that will add to cost. Cannot look at just number of sales and number of returns, there must be a quality modifier in there somewhere for a fair comparison.

Well, find it than.... the only part of concern is the Body, Both Virgins and NON-Virgins see the same process / procedure to meet approval, any Body not meeting the standard is rejected, the NON wear parts are also inspected to meet Virgin standards.

Cerb This is not like you, its the 1st time that I can remember adamantly supporting something without proof...Now if you like them more or believe their better That's Your opinion and I won't argue that.

 

[cerberusiam]

That is what I am saying, I FOUND those issues that I believe constitute a failure of a reman that are outside of the typical failure definitions.

When I can see an issue on a scanner, feel it in engine operation, and hear it in engine tone, it is a problem. When I replace the offending injector and the problems go away I count that as failure. Quantifying WHAT failed is the real issue. Is it a mechanical issue that the inspection did not catch? Is it a setup issue with assembly? Is it a balance issue from setup or assembly?

I have installed and use several sets of new, reman, and BBI injectors. Consistently I have encountered more issues with remans than the others combined. I cannot address balance and setup issues, do not have the knowledge or tools to do it correctly. If an injector is showing 106% contribution percentage it is failure right from the start. If it shows 104% and I can validate that will follow the injector and it is creating either a wobble at a certain rpm or some aberrant noises in specific circumstances it counts as a failure. All these failures show very little variation in standard testing procedures, but, the variances are much more pronounced in actual operation. I know this because I have them tested with the typical methods used, then, had them tested and adjusted with very tight tolerance and QC methods.

I am extremely picky, to the point of being anal, about injector operation in these CR trucks, with good reason. They melt pistons, break rings, foul the oil, and in extreme cases window blocks. I still come back to: why buy remans when for about the same price you can buy NEW injectors?

I can only comment on my experiences and relate that the processes used were and are as identical and repeatable as possible for consistency. Whether it mirrors bulk sales statistics really is a moot point for me. I see consistent issues with the remans that others do not and will not due to a difference in criteria. The question is still; What constitutes a failure?

 

[Crunch]

What constitutes a failure?

I think you hit the nail on the head in that this question is the crux of the biscuit in your disagreement with TCDiesel.

I have installed and use several sets of new, reman, and BBI injectors. Consistently I have encountered more issues with remans than the others combined. I cannot address balance and setup issues, do not have the knowledge or tools to do it correctly. If an injector is showing 106% contribution percentage it is failure right from the start. If it shows 104% and I can validate that will follow the injector and it is creating either a wobble at a certain rpm or some aberrant noises in specific circumstances it counts as a failure.

Help me out by expanding on the above definition of failure. If an injector does show one or more of the characteristics you describe above, but lasts 200K miles with no ill effects on the truck, is it still a failure? Also, how certain are you of the provenance of the remanufactured injectors you tested? When I was researching this a couple of weeks ago I found a lot of information about remanufactured injectors being sold as new, and Chinese knock-offs and other substandard injectors being sold as injectors remanufactured by Bosch.

 

[cerberusiam]

All the remans are directly from a local Bosch authorized dealer and are certified Bosch remans.

On the flip side, if the injectors would last 200k and the engine self destructs would that be an engine failure or injector failure? Postmortem on the engine failures I have seen and been involved with, injector failed and was not caught until the engine failed. These engines are tough and they will take a lot of abuse, but, you over fuel a little too much and work them hard it takes very little time to melt a piston or break rings or worse.

Basically, you start seeing contribution percentages getting out there over 104% or down in the lower 90 percent range and you start seeing kill tests that do not drop rpm enough or make significant difference in engine operation and sound, it is a situation that won't end well. If you find an obvious issue do you run it until some big breaks or fix it now? Knowing there is an injector showing aberrant behavior do you go ahead and load it up to whatever you tow and make a 2000 mile round trip hoping nothing will happen? An extra $200-400 now, or, a $5k engine build later. Choices, and that influences things like a definition of failure and what we will tolerate for settling.

I have had remans go bad in 60 days or so, both subtle failures and knock like crazy making it obvious. I have has them go bad after the 12 month warranty is up and I footed the bill to replace them because I could not in good conscience balance the injector cast against an engine cost. I have had ONE new injector go bad after 3 years and over 100k. Never would have found it but for chasing another problem as it was not obvious. The replacement injector is not perfect either BUT its contribution and kill test is within parameters, it is just a little out of balance and it is noticeable when one is used to smooth quiet operation.

I do not doubt TC's data, it is in line with what Bosch publishes and pretty much what I get quoted at the sales counter at every Cummins shop I deal with. Go in the back and talk to the mechanics and it isn't the same story, but, they have to deal with policy and company processes. Trying to quantify "What is a fialure?", still working on that as it isn't a hard and fast rule.

 

[Crunch]

All the remans are directly from a local Bosch authorized dealer and are certified Bosch remans.

On the flip side, if the injectors would last 200k and the engine self destructs would that be an engine failure or injector failure? Postmortem on the engine failures I have seen and been involved with, injector failed and was not caught until the engine failed.

I'd say that the provenance issue is settled then. As for your hypothetical above, my opinion is that it comes down to causality. If the engine self destructed due to a change in performance of the injector or injector integrity, it would be injector failure. That said, at 200K miles the exact same scenario could happen with either new or remanufactured injectors. People here have had new injectors fail before 200K miles, and others have had them last longer than my 342K miles. I guess another way of phrasing my hypothetical example would be this: If someone replaces their injectors with remans and they get 200K miles out of them before something changes the normal operation of their truck, would that be reason enough to regret getting remanufactured injectors instead of opting for new injectors? Since new injectors could fail at 200K miles and cause the same damage to the engine, I would say it isn't reason enough to regret the decision.

What would be nice is to see industry statistics that map average injector life for new and the highest quality remanufactured injectors, along with a curve showing how many miles are put on them when they fail. Something like A, B, C representing new injectors and X, Y, Z representing remanufactured injectors. Then plotting a curve where A%/X% of injectors fail below 100K miles, B%/Y% of injectors fail at 150K miles, C%/Z% of injectors fail over 200K miles. If those numbers are far apart for A and X, yet close together for C and Z, it would be an indication that if remanufactured injectors last 100K miles there is little long term difference between new and remanufactured injectors. But it would also show that remanufactured injectors have a higher failure rate in the short term.

 

[p-Bar]

I agree with you Crunch in regards to stats. Google did this with hard drives and was very interesting.

 

[cerberusiam]

Part of the problem with trying to correlate injector failures to miles is the mileage on the engine. Who is buying reman injectors and putting them in a new engine? That isn't happening as the 5.9 is out of production, no more new engines. Anybody rebuilding an engine with new parts is probably not considering reman injectors if they are even the least bit educated. There is always the percentage that are doing a budget rebuild but for the most part if one is dropping $5k on a rebuild trusting that investment to anything other than new in the entire fuel system is hard to fathom.

That leaves the majority of injectors going into high mileage engines, relatively speaking. If the engine fails then comes the question of was it the reman injectors or was it the previous set of injectors that were replaced for a reason but maybe not soon enough that is the actual root cause. Hard data on real root causes of engine failures due to failed reman injectors, or even new injectors, is almost impossible to correlate. High volume resellers simply will not have and info on where the injectors went, what the condition of the target engine was, usage, loose nut behind the wheel, etc, etc, etc. Even small shops are not going to have anything useful in the area. Would you go back to shop that sold you on reman injectors knowing there is no warranty on collateral damage, then, you had your engine expire 5000 miles later for whatever reason? Trying to get true valid statistics info on actual failures of a commodity product like CR injectors is near impossible. ALL that can be seen is this many were sold, this many were returned as bad, if that is even kept separately from cores. Is it really feasible to think that cores are being sorted for what was originally new and is a core, what was a reman and is a core, how many miles or hours were on an injector when it actually failed. ALL that can be seen is how many were sold and how many flagged as warranty returns in the 12 month warranty period.

It is statistical information, the same numbers can be just as easy compiled to convince or to deceive. All I can comment on is my experience, it is not on a par with what the other statistics present. The news is not all bad, I see a 30% failure with realistic expectations. That means there is 70% chance that of NOT failing.

 

[TCDiesel]

What, I have Bosch Remans in My race motors ( New), We have customers that Have new engines Built by us that cost over 100,000.00 @ 2000HP+ that we put Reman Bosch, Have yet to see a failure. We have customers that freshen there Pumps By us (TC Diesel) and By Remans at every 250-300K miles that are over 800K miles on same rotating mass. I set the miles and Hrs and its up to the owners to decide to follow the recommendations or not.

 

[sojoe]

Cerb-do you see failures on BBI remans?
I have read what is commented on BBI`s sales site(Source Automotive) regarding BBI remans.
Just would like to draw from your experiences.
TC and Cerb-IO do appreciate how you both comment in a PROFESSIONAL manner and do not use personal attacks-
My hat is off to Crunch also for stating his case so eloquently.
Thanks for being civil.

 

[cerberusiam]

I have not used a set of BBI remans so no opinion on them. Knowing the way Martin set sup the injectors that would be my first choice from now on for remans, they should be equal to new in balance and adjustment which is where I see the most deviation. Pretty sure he is a lot more discerning about what gets used for the build stock also.

 

[Crunch]

Trying to get true valid statistics info on actual failures of a commodity product like CR injectors is near impossible. ALL that can be seen is this many were sold, this many were returned as bad, if that is even kept separately from cores. Is it really feasible to think that cores are being sorted for what was originally new and is a core, what was a reman and is a core, how many miles or hours were on an injector when it actually failed. ALL that can be seen is how many were sold and how many flagged as warranty returns in the 12 month warranty period.

I think accurate statistics could be teased out of the data, provided the sample universe is viable. For starters, I would eliminate data from mom and pop shops. They may not keep great records, and may also be more likely to use lower quality remans. Performance shops probably keep good records and use high quality remans, but collecting the data from performance shops spread all over the country would be a real chore. So the sample I would suggest is Dodge service departments, and limit the data to the 5.9 engine for the 3rd Gen trucks. Dodge service departments would use high quality remans, keep good records--and more importantly, those records are likely in a central corporate data base that can be easily accessed and collected.

In examining the data I would document the odometer mileage the first time the injectors were replaced (R1), the second time they were replaced (R2), etc, and whether replaced injectors were new or remans. The odometer mileage documented at R1 can easily be converted into an accurate average number of miles for new, OEM injectors. Odometer mileage documented at R2, R3, etc can be separated into remans and new replacements, and the average number of miles can be calculated through subtraction (R2-R1, R3-R2, etc). I don't know how many times most people replace injectors before they give up on the truck, but the results would also reflect injector life relative to overall engine wear. In separating new and reman replacements the data would reflect any differences between the two in older engines. I don't know if Dodge service departments download engine hours before replacing injectors. But if they do, the same formula above could be used to calculate new and replaced injector life in hours, which may or may not be as important as miles to an individual owner.

The only variables that would be near impossible to control for would be whether the injectors were replaced because they outright failed, were providing decreased performance or were replaced as part of a preventative maintenance routine. So any averages derived from the results would be aggregate averages reflecting all reasons injectors were replaced.

 

[cerberusiam]

Dodge service departments would use high quality remans, keep good records--and more importantly, those records are likely in a central corporate data base that can be easily accessed and collected.

That is a non-starter as dealers use the WORST reman injector available out there.

 

[Crunch]

That is a non-starter as dealers use the WORST reman injector available out there.

I find that both surprising and disappointing. I would have thought that Chrysler had higher standards and would have demanded that Dodge service departments source only the highest quality injectors, considering how much a properly operating engine depends on them. I guess all is not lost, though. Any results from data collected would just show expected mileage from low end injector replacements. It's the scaling up for high quality injectors that would require some guesswork.

 

[cerberusiam]

This is what I meant when saying that using remans is a crap shoot. This engine has less than 200k for all we know as it is a re-power when the original engine dies an untimely death from knocking a tip off an injector. #5 cylinder shown had an injector fail when we were just sorting out the truck after purchase. Failed bad enough it was hammering and chattering, took out the head gasket, etc. Both #5 and #4 showed bad on tests. Replaced #4 and #5 injector, #4 was stock injector, #5 was already a reman. The scoring was NOT there as of 6-7k ago when the HG and injectors were replaced. #6 went south during a 4k trip with a heavy load. #4 started drifting contribution percentage and was again replaced after about 4 months due to showing percentages in the 104-105% range on testing. #5, the second reman, is still showing solid contribution numbers BUT between #6 and #4 failing under load it took out the HG again even with ARP studs and a good Cummins MLS gasket. Head was checked and smoothed before first gasket.

BTW, this is a fully deleted 07 6.7. Common held belief is the 6.7 injectors are better but in reality that does not seem to be the case. Based on what I have seen with this engine, 4 injectors in less than 200k, 2 remans failing in a relatively short period of time, 1 reman in a 5k period, it is a fallacy the 6.7 injectors are much if any better than the 5.9 versions. Regardless, the results of a failed injector are the same in as much a broken rings are a high probability in either engine and a HG failure is almost a given in a 6.7 engine. Trend or random bad luck, your choice what the answer is.

Since the engine now MUST come out it will get new rings with gaps opened up to hopefully negate breakage, new bearings with a 1 piece thrust bearing, and a fire ringed head and special gasket. Since we do all our own work the cost will be mainly parts and machine work on the head, but, if one is hiring this done you can pretty much guess what the final bill will be for the same result we will achieve for about $2k. Balanced against the cost and the work we have done so far we likely could have replaced all injectors with a new set of .75 BBI's and been ahead of the game. Note this is a very high level comparison if, all things being equal, the factory HG held and there were no OTHER issues. Really hard to say because may other factors contribute. Needless to say, after this is fixed, the G56 is rebuilt because whomever did it did not pay real close attention to detail, and a HE451VE is swapped in place if the factory turbo, which we already fixed once for a weird failure, a set of BBI's will be front and center and done BEFORE any more towing trips.

I had forgotten that Bosch is collecting statistics by VIN number of reman injectors. They have stats for whatever they are worth but I doubt somehow they will share the raw data. However this exact instance does present a problem with accuracy. The VIN of this truck is now showing 4 reman injectors that I have done, only one will show as a reman replacement when in reality it is 2.

 

[ColemanR]

Interesting thread for sure. Just a note from someone that probably has close to the most miles with BB1's. I finally broke a ring on my 06 at 773K the BB1's had 275K on them at the time. When I sent them back in to be rebuilt they said they looked great and to keep what doing whatever i was doing. We changed out the tips to the 03/04 style tips to match the engine build. I'm currently at 100K on my rebuilt BB1's so far so good.

 

[promisedland]

Not sure if it was said, hpcr injectors in the 5.9L trucks really need extra fuel filtering, protect your investment !

 

[Crunch]

I had forgotten that Bosch is collecting statistics by VIN number of reman injectors. They have stats for whatever they are worth but I doubt somehow they will share the raw data. However this exact instance does present a problem with accuracy. The VIN of this truck is now showing 4 reman injectors that I have done, only one will show as a reman replacement when in reality it is 2.

I think that there is still some good data that can be extracted from those stats, including cross-brand results that wouldn't be available from stats only from Dodge service departments. Miles at first replacement would show average miles for new injectors. Miles from subsequent replacements would show average miles for remans, including how it might decrease as the engine ages. But like you said, it depends on whether they share the data. But they may publish their results somewhere and it would be good to get a look at that. It also wouldn't show why the injectors were replaced, i.e. failure or preventive maintenance. Because mine were replaced for failure, and by request they were probably not tested, at least by the Cummins shop so I'll never know which one actually failed. And based on Ozymandias' statement that he hasn't heard of cracked injectors on a stock truck I might never know for sure what actually happened to allow fuel in the crankcase. I've got 500 miles on the replacement injectors, so I have to think it was an injector problem, but other than a cracked injector, what can fail on them and let fuel into the crankcase?