What did Jesus write??

[Sled Puller]

Ol Trail Dog,



"The devil made me do it" doesn't fly, eh?



How about a, for lack of better term, politically correct way to say that?



"The Lord works in mysterious ways. "



That ought to cover a whole boatload of things gone wrong!!!!

 

[tractorseller]

I didn't see anything in Jim's post to indicate he thought he was "buying his way" into heaven. If he gives time and money to his church, then God bless him! Tithing is Biblical (from God). It's not "made up" by men. If you choose not to give anything that's your business. If Jim decides to give that's his business. This whole notion that churches are somehow evil "extorters" of money is hogwash. Churches are run by men and women who are subject to the same mistakes and temptations that any of us are (Jim Baker and his PTL Club come to mind, as do the more recent Catholic sex scandals). But I'll tell you flat out that I have seen more good done by churches than any other institution in this country IMHO. Since when is helping people heal their hearts and souls, teaching them to obey laws and to help other people and love their neighbors a bad thing???



Why some people feel a need to personally attack people who are trying to do good things is beyond me. Discussing issues is one thing, but accusing a man of trying to "buy his way into heaven" is wrong.

 

[PRyker]

Guys,



You have to remember that you have what you have because of our lord Jesus. It was never yours to begin with. We are here for a short period of time and then will spend eternity in heaven.



10% is the minimum!! I strive to always tith more than that! After all, it is all his to begin with. Imagine how silly it is of me to not want to give back some of what he has given me?? He died on the cross for our sins... He created what I have. It is because of him I exist. Even my Dodge CTD is a mere material possesion that I would give up in a heart beat if it would mean spending an eternity with the father.



Do not conform to the standards of this world... Greed, selfishness, revenge, ambition, etc... The lord has always paid me back 4 fold for the money that I have tithed.



Psalm 24:1,

The earth is the Lord's, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it.



The last of the ten commandments says: "Thou shalt not covet. "



Jesus said in Luke 12:15, "Beware, and be on your guard against every form of covetousness (or greed). "



And in Colossians 3:5 Paul calls covetousness "idolatry. " Wanting things too much is incredibly dangerous for your soul. Hebrews



13:5 says,

Let your character be free from the love of money, being content with what you have.



And MOST importantly:



Malachi 3:10,



Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.



HOW AWAZING!!! God is testing us to tithe... If we do he will reward us back many times over.



It works for me!!



Phil

 

[Sled Puller]

Asking and accusing are two different things.



10% minimum?

I tell you what, get me Gods account numbers and I'll make a direct deposit.



But I refuse to donate money or time, to a local chruch that blew several MILLION dollars on a building.



I respect the local Amish more, who go to a different neighbors house each Sunday, to worship.

 

[PRyker]

Sled Puller,



You have stated your position on the matter clearly and by posting in a discussion forum I will never be able to change your mind... Church's build buildings as a way to increase their size and accommodate all of the people they have reached. When you see a church erect a large building you can pretty much bet that they have contributed many more times the cost of that structure to many worthy causes and have helped many, many people. Have you been a member of a church who has improperly used funds or are you just guessing that is what happens? If you are concerned you can easily find out as they will glady provide with a break down of how the money is spent. Are you a member of a church now? I can tell you that church's are made up of good people that are brought together to worship the lord and help their communities as much as they possibly can. Your position is quite ridiculous.



With that said, as I stated above, I know this has done nothing to change your mind. I hope you do find the lord someday. I mean no offense by that.



Phil

 

[Sled Puller]

And if I do, I am sure it won't happen in a church!! No offense taken, none meant.



Yes, I was forced to join when I was a kid, and got away from it as soon as possible. And, I liked that preacher, he was a good man, trustworthy.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Got to thinking that I would much rather have the Holy Ghost than a personally penned and autographed edition of the Bible by Jesus.



Besides it reminds me of Lazarus and the rich man.



Luke16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



Point - it shouldn't take any direct writing from Jesus either.

 

[The patriot]

Point - it shouldn't take any direct writing from Jesus either.

That's what faith is all about.

Eric

 

[CGriffith]

Reasons to believe has a lot of good reading. Dr Hugh Ross is the founder. His whole purpose is to create a scientific explanation and backing for a creator. His books and articles helped me understand a lot of things because I'm kind of scientifically minded. I had a hard time taking god and religion at face value without some scientific explanations. It's undeniable that there is scientific proof of a creator. If you can understand that, then Jesus being our savior is easier to believe.

 

[Mike Ellis]

(on edit, removed a long ramble)



We may not like to hear things like Sled says, but there is little doubt that monies contributed to the glory of God are all too often frittered away on the preferences of the faithful. We Christians can do better, BE better stewards of the Lord's dollars. We just have to remember that church is more than quilting bees, seminars, retreats, fish fries, gold clubs, choir groups, and expensive carpet - and that a man can find Jesus Christ and accept Him as his savior without ever once crossing the door of a church. All it takes is belief.



Think about it.

 

[tractorface]

Too late

I read your long ramble and was very impressed with it. You really hit a nerve because the constant "money grab" is what really turned me and my family off in the first place.

Thanks

 

[loncray]

It was that constant money grubbing that caused Martin Luther to write his theses and post them on the church doors.

 

[RichB59]

Who wrote the bible

All Scripture (the bible) is given by INSPIRATION OF GOD and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Second Timothy 3:16 God is a person of 3 parts known as the TRINITY... ... God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Ghost. God inspired men (God the Holy Ghost) to write the words down about Jesus (God the Son) in the New Testament and words about God (God the Father) in the Old Testament. God is revealed to us in 3 persons known as the Trinity which completes the DIVINE GOD! So, God (The Trinity) wrote the bible, inspired words to men revealing His truths to us and by FAITH we believe and receive salvation.

 

[Sled Puller]

We may not like to hear things like Sled says,.

What are you trying to say, Mike?

 

[PRyker]

Mike,



I read your longer version and found it to be a very interesting response. The only problem I have with it is this...



If you are a true believer in christ, take the bible as it is literally written and believe you need to live your life by the word of god then shouldn't you focus on doing that? Shouldn't you follow his word? The bible has many versus that both point to one tenth of your earnings should be tithed as well as the proper place to tithe being your church. If more people would focus on self improvement and humility and less on what others are doing then the world would be better off.



Yes, as it is with everything else, there are people who will not do the right thing. I am sure there are times when money is used improperly, however, Are you a member of a church? Do you go to business meetings to understand the decision that are being made and for what reason? Do you take and active role in the church? You have the power to help decide how the funds are used. Don't whine about it, do something if you disagree.



So many times I see people criticizes "church" because they claim all they want is money. These same people show up on Sundays get into "god mode", listen to the pastor and then leave and forget everything that was taught. They do not get more involved instead they expect everything to simply be "worked out" for them behind the scenes so when they show up next Sunday they can hear the word again.



It amazes me... IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW THE MONEY IS BEING USED THEN SIMPLY GET INVOLVED!!!!! Then if you see issues with how the money is being spent then speak your mind. If then you have a problem with what is happening find another church.



My point is that you cannot point at the church and say they are the reason why you cannot follow the word of god. It is true that you can find Jesus without going into a church but most people need help being educated on gods word. Just like you can learn to speak english at home but to be any good at it you must get an education. Jesus does believe in church and wants everyone to belong to one.



Bottom line, find a good church and then get involved.



Phil

 

[tractorface]

"If you are a true believer in christ, take the bible as it is literally written and believe you need to live your life by the word of god then shouldn't you focus on doing that?"



PRyker

Are you saying that in order to believe in Christ one has to take the bible literally. Maybe it is me being oversensitive but all my life I have heard a somewhat condesending tone from the "True Believers". What is wrong with having questions and wanting to know more? To me it is ridiculous to take the bible at face value. Does that make me somehow less of a believer than one who follows it literally?

$$$$$ are a big deal and remember the people in charge of the funds are human. I have sat through 45 minutes of "begging" for money for this or that and than watched the priest race past the religion in order to make sure the congregation was not in church for more than an hour as many have "more important stuff to do". I was raised Catholic and this was a common practice... ... and people wonder why I ask so many questions. :-laf

 

[PRyker]

I take the bible literally because that is how I believe god wanted us to accept it as. As someone pointed out above the bible has was given to us by god through men. I believe that our Lord knew exactly what he was doing when the prophets wrote the bible and was in complete control of it's contents. I believe Jesus was born from a virgin (not that ridiculous Davinci Code nonsense) and I believe the only way to heaven is through him. So, yes. I take the bible literally and I believe that true christ centered, bible based believers should do the same.



I am sorry to hear that you attended a church where the pastor was more concerned about getting people out of worship and home than brining people closer to christ. As I said (and you said) church is run by men. I would find a church with a more christ centered philosophy and one that takes worship seriously.



Phil

 

[Jumbo Jet]

I regularly attend church. I am not as 'good' as I would like to be even from all the church involvement. Sometimes old habits are hard to break.



The church has one mission - spread the Gospel of Christ, at home and away from home. To every creature.



Churches sometimes get so wrapped up in activities, programs, and traditions that they leave behind their true mission. Churches have the same fallabilities (sp. ) as the members. Selfish desires. Me first. Wants vs. needs. Cliques. One upmanship. Etc. The things that Satan wants to keep stirred up. Then we see the highly visible examples of pastors and preachers succumbing to the desires of the flesh. Is what they do worse than what we do? Shouldn't they have known better? Shouldn't we know better?



The true church belongs to God. There are independent 'churches' that belong to the minister and the collection goes to him. The church is made up of members that support the 'needs' of the church. We meet the needs of the ministers, the operation of the church plant, maintenance and operation of vans, fellowship hall, youth building, training and development center, etc. Is the money always carefully spent? I hope so because we are held accountable to spend the money to support the one mission of the church. Some people designate their contribution for specific purposes. This is good as long as they don't attach selfish feelings to the object/program they funded.



Is there a perfect church I can direct you to? Well, if there was and they let me or you join up, they would quickly lose that perfect characteristic.



The Apostle Paul said he was the "chiefest of sinners". I am sure I run a close second. Jesus came to seek and save sinners.

 

[crobertson1]

tractorface,



I have a feeling that the Lord is tapping on your shoulder trying to get your attention. He won't force His way into your life, but He wants more than anything for you to come to Him. He loves you and wants fellowship with you. That voice inside of you asking these questions isn't there by accident. I can't put into words what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I do know it's real. The joy, the peace, the confidence, I wish I could explain. I know the Creator of the world! You can too. I know you probably think I'm luny, but I'm really not. To follow Christ is the most important decision you'll ever make. And by far, it's the best one you'll ever make.



I also would recommend "A Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel. He went on an objective investigation about Jesus after his wife came to faith. He asks a lot of hard questions to a lot of different people. It's a good read.



Churches are operated by man. Anytime, man gets involved with anything, egos, pride, selfishness all get in the way. Many, many people are turned off by Christianity because of man. The hypocrisy is horrible. It's understandable how people automatically want to throw "religion" and churches into the trash pile. It's also very tragic. Please don't let man's problems keep you from a relationship with Jesus. We'll let you down everytime, He will never let you down. You'll be in my prayers.



Craig

 

[tractorface]

You may be right

I have been very interested in actually learning the answers to questions I have had for years. Funny, it all started when my wife made me go with her to a basic canoe class. We took to it like mad and have had a blast. The wonders of mother nature really started pulling me in and we began hiking some of the back country trails in the National parks (love the grand circle). There was something almost magical about the feeling I would get in the presence of mother nature. Anyway, this led me to start thinking about the religion I was raised with. The arrival of my son a couple years back really turned up the questions in my head. He is almost an exact duplicate of me in almost every way, so I really want to try and have some reasonable answers for him as he is learning about religion. I know from my experience that telling him to "believe it or else" will turn him off. For me it has to make some sense. That does not mean I am not willing to take a leap of faith on some points.

I have read some books about indigenous peoples and their believes. Fascinating stuff that cannot be wholly dismissed. In fact I think it all fits together nicely at times. I'll keep asking questions until I die