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What did Jesus write??

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tractorface, asking is not wrong. wanting to know is not wrong. Matthew 7:7, Luke 11:9, James 1:5,6.



seeing God in nature is scriptural, Romans 1:18-20.





if you see something done in the name of "religion" that's does not appear acceptable, check the guidebook. 1 Kings 18 is a good example of misdirected zeal.



tithing was part of the Law of Moses, removed by Jesus sacrificial death, but 2 Cor. 9:7 indicates we should donate cheerfully not " of necessity". if the $$$$ aren't being used in a way that the guidebook would indicate, maybe the "church" is not the right one.
 
PRyker,



I have been a member of the Baptist church for a few decades now, and my family and I have gone years without missing a Sunday service. I deleted my long ramble because I did not want to come off as a whiner or discourage fellow believers, however every word of it was based on REAL experience at churches I have attended.



You will notice that all the Biblical enjoinders about tithing 10% come from the Old Testament, and they were put there because of the way the Jewish priest class was constructed. If you are going to have a priest class, that lives off of the people as a whole, you must have a tithe in order to support them - it is simply a religious tax so that the priests can survive. Without it, all you could afford would be lay ministers - a heretical idea indeed before Jesus came along, and still so to many Christians to this day.



The New Testament does not have as many exhortations about following such a rule, one reason being that Jesus brought us all the Word - now we have the priesthood of the believer, and are not dependent upon a PRIEST or PREACHER to usher us to the gates of Heaven. We do not have to make burnt offerings, or buy temple coinage to make donations, or receive a priestly blessing or accolade to be assured of reaching heaven, or pay large sums to have sins forgiven.



Under the New Testament, Jesus has given us DIRECT ACCESS to God. There are many benefits to belonging to a church, to participating in Bible study and fellowship, but they aren't REQUIREMENTS. Neither is paying out large $$$$ to support a sumptuous BUILDING, elegant choir ROBES, or a lavish dwelling for a preacher. If a congregation wishes to do these things, all well and good - but we should never make the mistake of thinking that DOING these things makes us more worthy, or more Christian than anybody else.



As I said in my deleted ramble, it is a powerful feeling to stand in Capernaum and look at the remnants of the tiny home where Peter lived during his days as a fisherman. His dwelling could just about have fit into the living room of an American home, and was made from rough undressed volcanic stone gathered from the local plain. This tiny, humble little place was good enough for Jesus and His first chosen disciples to begin their ministry, while a stone's throw away stood a large synagogue full of the pomp and circumstance of the Jewish priests with their lavish robes and ceremony. When Jesus wanted to speak to the crowds, He met them on a hillside - people sitting on rocks and grass, not fine cushions. No doubt the Jewish faithful in their beautiful robes and their deluxo synagogue laughed at all the "poor trash" meeting out in the hot sun without even an official priest to sanction the service on that long-ago day when Jesus preached the Sermon on the Mount. And yet what could any of the upstanding Jewish citizens have ever said, to match the beauty and spirituality of what Jesus handed out on that hillside for free?



It AIN'T about the money, folks. It AIN'T about how many hours Mike's butt has sat in an oak pew, or how many hymns I know, or how many dollars our church collected to send the kids to Colorado skiing.



What it IS ABOUT, is Jesus Christ and His mesage in the New Testament. It is right there in black and white, and any person on this planet can sit down, read it, and accept Jesus' message WITHOUT having to pay a tithe, or have a preacher or priest's blessing. That may offend some of us who like organization and structure to our worship, but that's the way it is. No point getting all het up about it. Just smile and remember, all things work to the Glory of God in the end
 
to Mike Ellis' point from above:



"..... belonging to a church, to participating in Bible study and fellowship, but they aren't REQUIREMENTS"



Hebrews 10:24,25 would seem to indicate assembling together is a requirement so as to provoke love, good works and exhortation to others as well as ourselves.
 
Assembling together can be as simple as reading the Bible with your family or a few friends, undoubtedly sharing the Word with fellow believers is beneficial and we should avail ourselves of it if possible.



However, Jesus was very clear about how we get to heaven, it doesn't have a thing to do with the church we attend, tithing, circumcision, what we eat, what we wear, or anything else under the sun... . EXCEPT for what we believe.



If you don't want to go to church, don't go to church. But never let that stop you from developing a relationship with Jesus Christ fellows, He is ALWAYS there for you and he won't ask you for single red cent - all He wants is your faith and love. Sometimes it may seem there isn't a single person in the world who gives a rat's patootie about you and your problems, but that's just despair talking to you - There is ONE who is always there, all you have to do is reach out to Him. You can talk to Him anytime, anyplace, anywhere - you can rage at Him, cry out to Him, confide in Him - He is always there for YOU.



Don't let anyone ever convince you different.
 
Good discourse Mike, similar to what my Dad told a preacher years ago, when he was being chastized on his front porch cause he did not go to this preachers church, which happened to be the biggest and most popular in the community.



Now that I am building a place in Amish country, I like their idea of going to a different home each Sunday for services rather than a specific building, and they are as serious as anyone about their beliefs, but they keep it simple and direct.
 
Mike Ellis said:
There is ONE who is always there, all you have to do is reach out to Him. You can talk to Him anytime, anyplace, anywhere - you can rage at Him, cry out to Him, confide in Him - He is always there for YOU.



Don't let anyone ever convince you different.



Honestly, how can any one believe there is a magic spirit (for lack of a better term) out there, that built everything out of nothingness??



I just don't get it. It seems pretty far fetched.



We mad fun of the Indians, called them savages, for making a god up to explain every natural phenomenon, but is Christianity so much different?



For instance, the Virgin Mary. Lets assume Joseph was deeply religious, she fooled around on him, gets pregnant, and knows she has to come up with a good reason, well, Joe, its Gods son. He buys it, because he KNOWS she wouldn't cheat on him, and starts telling people, soon enough many more buy it, and Mary can't come clean now, because so many believe it. It kind of snowballed from there, and as the story got retold, it was added to, until someone finally wrote it down(and of course made their changes)



Not saying I really think that, but to be honest with yourself, you have to look at both sides of the coin.



As much as I wish it were true, it just seems more and more like a crutch, to hide form reality. :(
 
Sled Puller said:
Honestly, how can any one believe there is a magic spirit (for lack of a better term) out there, that built everything out of nothingness??



I just don't get it. It seems pretty far fetched.
Sleddy, I can only relate my own personal experience. As an engineer by training, I find it takes much less faith for me to accept a supreme being who created the heavens and the earth than it does to accept that we're nothing but a cosmic accident - that we just happened to emerge (contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics) from the chaos in the universe.



Rusty
 
"However, Jesus was very clear about how we get to heaven, it doesn't have a thing to do with the church we attend, tithing, circumcision, what we eat, what we wear, or anything else under the sun... . EXCEPT for what we believe. "



Sure seems to my basic sence of logic that the Bible indicates there are some things we can do that would cause us to not "inherit the Kingdom of God" 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Therefore I personally do not agree with the above quote from this chain.



Many people disagree as it is more convenient to do as you please and not try to conform ones life to a higher authority. The words of the apostle Paul ref'd above indicate changes can and should be made as a result of our beliefs.
 
Sled Puller said:
Honestly, how can any one believe there is a magic spirit (for lack of a better term) out there, that built everything out of nothingness??



I just don't get it. It seems pretty far fetched.



We mad fun of the Indians, called them savages, for making a god up to explain every natural phenomenon, but is Christianity so much different?



For instance, the Virgin Mary. Lets assume Joseph was deeply religious, she fooled around on him, gets pregnant, and knows she has to come up with a good reason, well, Joe, its Gods son. He buys it, because he KNOWS she wouldn't cheat on him, and starts telling people, soon enough many more buy it, and Mary can't come clean now, because so many believe it. It kind of snowballed from there, and as the story got retold, it was added to, until someone finally wrote it down(and of course made their changes)



Not saying I really think that, but to be honest with yourself, you have to look at both sides of the coin.



As much as I wish it were true, it just seems more and more like a crutch, to hide form reality. :(





Sled Puller,



It seems your hypothetical responses are coming to light. I respect a person that says what she/he means and means what he/she says. It's good to pose healthy questions and enter into good healthy dialog.



You mentioned you'd like God's account # so you could direct deposit. I don't think you would, based on your comments above. God knows the heart of a man. He knows how important our money is to us. If we are willing to part with our money freely, it is a true reflection of our heart (i. e. , beliefs). God asked us to give. We should give. If you feel the church is wrong so be it. Do you find good Godly humanitarian agencies thru which to give? God works in many areas that need our funds. I don't give to try to buy my way into heaven. Quite the contrary. I don't give enough. The mere fact there is oxygen in my lungs is a living testimony to His Grace. Any good we do as people is God's loving mark upon humanity. Before He turned me around, there was little other than hatred and malice dripping from my very lips.



No man or statistics or bible verses will convince an unwilling heart. Only the Spirit of the Living God working thru people that carry His love and Word will penetrate such a heart. I understand what you said about it being far fetched. So is macro-evolution. I studied it in a state university for 3+ years. Interestingly, I found my thin faith being strengthened by what I learned about the 'natural mechanics' of the world. All the pieces began to fit together like never before. Micro-evolution and Creationism fit together very well. Macro-evolution is being disputed and reputed by elite scholars in the field. Few among themselves agree on much. It takes more than faith to claim all that is in existence was the result of a big-bang, and furthermore claim life spontaneously happened on its own. It just didn't. Scientists have been doing everything possible to re-create conditions they think existed when 'it happened' in hopes of getting it to happen again.



Question: Would you willingly die nailed upside-down on a tree for a good teacher?

No matter how much I admired or believed my teachers, I don't think I would.



As for the crutch, I'd call it a gurney or a wheelchair. Many people don't see the real need. Just like in His day. The people looked for a military deliverance from Rome. He offered deliverance from sin. They nailed Him to a tree for it. Every Word, every doctrine, every story, each book within the bible is all God’s Grace, undeserved unearned unmerited Grace.



As to your issue with Mary: please read Matthew 1:19 for a different account.



Sorry for the long ramble.



HvyD
 
It has absolutely nothing to do about liking one's questions. It has to do with our heart toward God. I apologize, if that is how I came across.



God descended to our level to show us His love. If we don't receive it, that's our choice. I place no labels on you or anyone. We are all on a path. Where that path leads is not known. I can only imagine what kind of labels people may have given me before I came to know the Lord. All I can do is tell of His love for you, and hope it helps to break down walls.



I have lots of unanswered questions. I have pain and baggage from my past to work thru, but I know that despite all the crap I've endured, God loves and cares about all the crap I've been thru. I find that comforting. I hope you are able to see God's love thru the difficulties of life, someday.



I do not think you have a black heart, nor do I think you are a heathen. If you are asking sincere questions, I think you can embrace the God of the universe, not for any man's sake, but for the Glory of God, and the peace of your heart.



I offer my most sincere regards, Sled Puller,

Derek
 
Mike Ellis said:
PS - As far as churches, organized religion etc - no matter what style of coaching or support a man prefers, in the end only he himself is setting the sights and pulling the trigger. Set your sights on the right target, keep your focus, and don't worry about the rest. People may disagree with your technique or your style, but if YOU hit that target - they can't argue with results!



I know what my target is. Oo.



Excellent thread... ... ... please keep on as many are watching. ;)





J. R.



#ad
 
Sled,



Accepting the existence of God is a pretty stiff challenge for some folks, at one time or another most of us have looked around at the seemingly random universe and wondered about our place in it. How did we come to be? Are we an accident, thrown together by some fortuitous gathering of ingredients in the emptiness of space? Is it really necessary to postulate the existence of a God, when our direct day-to-day experiences fail to show any measurable proof of a "magic spirit" keeping things in order?



We look at the chaos, the suffering on our planet, and we wonder how a Supreme Being could allow such pain and misery to exist. After all, in our pride as rational humans, we assume that a Supreme Being would view all the events on Earth just the same as we do, and use those "magic spirit" capabilities to make life pleasant for everyone. But our daily experiences show us in often brutally clear fashion that the universe ISN'T being shaped to suit us, so we conclude bitterly that there MUST not be a God! Prideful creatures, ain't we? :D



The interesting thing about our existence, is that things are far, far less random than people would have you think. We know that the universe is subject to the inexorable forces of entropy - everything, over time, will trend toward disorder and decay. Jigsaw puzzles don't put themselves together. Matter may coalesce into a rigid crystalline matrix of a given element, but stack enough of it together and under the force of gravity etc it will become subject to greater and greater pressure and heat along with all the other goop that gets attracted until it eventually gets molten down and spit back out. That beautiful stone you find in the riverbed might be a diamond today, but in a million years it may find its way back into a subduction zone in the earth's crust, meet up with some lava, and become a random swarm of carbon atoms once again. Entropy gets everything, sooner or later.



And yet, here is this interesting phenomenon called life - that produces order from chaos, that has (so we are told) gone AGAINST entropy over billions of years by continually evolving into more and more and more ORDER. How did all this happen? By trillions upon trillions upon trillions of fortuitous accidents that made things "better" in some way as these specks of life ordered themselves into varmints of assorted size and complexity. And somehow, this process of evolution miraculously occurs across the board. When a cosmic ray sizzles down and zaps a proto-monkey's DNA to produce an opposeable thumb, it also happens to enough OTHER proto-monkey's to produce a viable population that will filter the opposeable thumb down into billions of descendants. But hey, that seems improbable! Let's suppose instead that evolution occurs when a SINGLE individual experiences a beneficial mutation... and is lucky enough to survive the brutal process of natural selection long enough to pass its genes along into a viable population.



OK, so we get out our calcu-la-mator, start poking the numbers - lessee, four billion years here on Earth... . start with a single atom, that has to meet another atom, and another, and with this mix that is "just so" form a molecule... and then meet ANOTHER "just so" molecule to form a protein chain, and then meet up with OTHERS to form a blob, and then jiggle around mysteriously until we are suddenly ALIVE AND REPLICATING - woo hoo, we did it but we won't really worry about how! :D So we start off as a prion, or virus, and work our way up the ladder toward single-cell status - NOW we're cooking! And we finally can start up a division of labor, by dividing ourselves and starting to branch out into different specialties. "Hey you! Form some sulfur-eating bacteria! And you - see if you can evolve some flagella so you can get into fluids and move around! Step it up, we don't have all day!"



Of course, there is no intelligence to these primitive blobs, so they only get to evolve when chance permits. A cosmic ray, perhaps a molecule HERE gives an advantage over a molecule THERE... . and maybe after a billion or two years we have some progress.



So those single-cell beasties slowly join into multi-celled beasties (completely by accident, surviving only by natural selection), which keep joining together to form successful variants while SIMULTANEOUSLY branching and branching and branching to create varmints that live in water, air, earth - lots of fortuitous things happening at a rapid, rapid pace.



And then one day, evolution has carried us along until consciousness and intelligence arise. A relatively furless ugly ape stands up, scratches itself, and decides to invent language. Civilization soon follows, and out of all that natural selection we modern humans have at last arrived. Not knowing where we came from, we speculate that some "magic spirit" produced us. We actually run across some supernatural beings, things that can't be explained by what we know, see people rise from the dead - and our beliefs in those "magic spirits" are reinforced.



Eventually we burp out a Darwin, and he says that things happen purely by natural selection, all characteristics we possess having been chosen purely because of the survival advantages they convey. The biggest problem with that theory, trying to figure out the survival advantages of DEATH, is brushed under the table, along with all the human characteristics that have no obvious survival benefit - compassion, love, beauty, laughter. Lower forms get along fine without them, and are STILL HERE for that matter, although we are told that these evolutionary changes that provided a survival advantage should have resulting in the old variants being squeezed out. Hmmmm, well we won't worry about that.



And we develop new sciences that let us look into things at both a cosmically huge scale (astronomy) and almost unimaginably fine scale (atomic physics). We suddenly see a whole lot more order and formalism than the hypothesized random structure might imply. Hmmmm, well we won't worry about that too much either :D :-laf



In truth Sled, the universe is not as random as things may seem. The odds of a cosmic series of incredibly fortuitous accidents producing are vanishingly small. The hallmarks of intelligent design are all around you, and that design was penned by the hand of God. The living God did indeed walk amongst man 2,000 years ago, and literally hundreds of people saw Him after He rose from the dead. All those things that were written REALLY did happen, and to this very day you can visit Israel and see the places and the works that were wrought by those ancients with your own eyes.



Take a few years to study science, and think about the leap of faith required to believe that life on Earth won the cosmic lottery trillions of times over BY ACCIDENT... . then take a few years to study the word of God, and ponder the idea that we are here because a supreme architect WILLED it to be so. That "magic spirit" may not seem so far fetched! :D



The truth is out there waiting for you Sled, one of these days you will get out to check your oil and it will be lurking there under the hood to grab you! I hope on that day that you will take Jesus to your heart, and offer Him a ride in your truck... . it'll be the greatest day of your life!



PS - And you don't even have to be in a church for it all to happen, Jesus has been known to co-pilot many a Turbo Diesel :D Oo. Oo.
 
Sled Puller said:
For instance, the Virgin Mary. Lets assume Joseph was deeply religious, she fooled around on him, gets pregnant, and knows she has to come up with a good reason, well, Joe, its Gods son. He buys it, because he KNOWS she wouldn't cheat on him, and starts telling people, soon enough many more buy it, and Mary can't come clean now, because so many believe it. It kind of snowballed from there, and as the story got retold, it was added to, until someone finally wrote it down(and of course made their changes):(



Historically..... at the time everybody had a "Virgin Birth". If your wife couldn't conceive you wouldn't marry her. They didn't have Social Security back then. So you had make sure she could produce kids or you were going to be screwed when you became old and feeble.
 
Mike E. I am enjoying this thread immensely (better then most of the religious threads here). But with all of this intelligent design being thrown around I think it was an oversight on the average IQ of humans. I think God should have jacked it up to about 200 and we would have had a better world. In fact now that I'm thinking about it the fact that we are so stupid (as a species) proves there is no evolution. In fact, based on the news its more like a devolution.
 
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