What Happened to Dodge???

[brods]

Don’t get your hopes up too high, unfortunately the SAE J2807 spec is voluntary.

All manufacturers are strongly encouraged to use this test for tow ratings beginning with the 2013 model year.

So not until 2013 at best and it would not be surprising to see it pushed back further. And unless ALL the manufacturers chose to use the standard it will be ineffective. Ford currently claims 11,300 lb trailer capacity for its 1/2 ton. Think that will pass the SAE J2807 spec? :-laf



There is this

The standard can be applied to passenger cars, multi-purpose passenger vehicles and trucks with a GCWR of up to 16,000 pounds.

If that is correct then it rules out the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup market and potentially some or most of the 1/2 tons as well. Seems pointless if that is the case.



The standard has been discussed a little on TDR: https://www.turbodieselregister.com...rum/226281-new-sae-towing-standard-j2807.html



It would be a good article for the mag, especially if they could get the facts straight from the SAE committee and clear up if it will apply to all pickups.



Edit: It is always best to go to the source. Looks like our trucks will be covered by the standard

Scope

This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow vehicle trailer rating for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and light trucks up to 19500 lb GVWR (Class 5).

 

[Larry Willard]

Well with us being fulltime RV'ers we need do to be mindful of the numbers. Drive out of the lot, load up and head down the road and you are overloaded. We're just noticing that the Chevy-which neither of us cared for-had the best numbers for people pulling large 5th wheels like us. I just feel Dodge is missing a large and growing audience of RV'ers who want a Dodge but also has the numbers needed for those of us who tow. Diana

Diana, I have to agree with yoou completely. Dodge needs to get it together and lead the way like they did when your truck came out.

Larry

 

[PToombs]

Well with us being fulltime RV'ers we need do to be mindful of the numbers. Drive out of the lot, load up and head down the road and you are overloaded. We're just noticing that the Chevy-which neither of us cared for-had the best numbers for people pulling large 5th wheels like us. I just feel Dodge is missing a large and growing audience of RV'ers who want a Dodge but also has the numbers needed for those of us who tow. Diana

I think you are missing the point a little bit. Most of the responses have been that your truck is as capable as the other brands, and that the other brands numbers are probably inflated.

I read once, (and can't remember where, an auto magazine of some sort) that Ford rated it's towing capacity by the cooling system. It could tow X lbs before the engine over heated, and that's the towing capacity.



Would you buy a vehicle to tow with using that standard?



If you are that worried about capacity, do as previously suggested, buy a 4500 or 5500 Dodge/ Cummins, and you won't have to worry.

 

[ringneck]

most people on the carriage club are ford owners,and own a 450 or 550. they dont know a dodge with a 6cly can do the same job and better. also 15000 cheaper,remenber short stroke 8cly meins horse power. dodge is a long stroker it will get your rig over that steep pull every time and in style,and lest fuel.

 

[HBarlow]

I have read recently including here in TDR forums that a new federal towing standard will soon be in use requiring light truck manufacturers to test and report towing ability based on an industry wide standard.

In other words, Furd and GM will no longer be able to publish their pie in the sky make believe towing numbers when the new standard is enforced.

To me, one of the most important towing characteristics provided by the Cummins engine is it's ability to tow heavy loads up steep grades at low rpm. When compared to Furd and GM light duty V8 diesel engines towing the same load up the same grade the V8 diesel will be turning much higher rpms. Lower rpm means less fuel consumed and less wear on the engine.

Also, I agree completely with GAme's observation. I just returned home from two weeks on the highways towing my own fiver. The working trucks on the roads and in the truck stops of America with huge heavy trailers behind them are Dodges.

 

[champspa]

400 hp at 2800 rpm and 800 ft lbs at 1600 rpm that's impressive for a stock diesel truck , I'm hoping Cummins will make a few engines for Ram that powerful , as of now Cummins only offers a 750 ft lb engine in a 6. 7

 

[Grizzly]

400 hp at 2800 rpm and 800 ft lbs at 1600 rpm that's impressive for a stock diesel truck , I'm hoping Cummins will make a few engines for Ram that powerful , as of now Cummins only offers a 750 ft lb engine in a 6. 7

... and if Cummins doesn't raise the HP and torque, I'm okay with that. I'm a very satisfied Dodge/Cummins owner.



george

 

[HBarlow]

400 hp at 2800 rpm and 800 ft lbs at 1600 rpm that's impressive for a stock diesel truck , I'm hoping Cummins will make a few engines for Ram that powerful , as of now Cummins only offers a 750 ft lb engine in a 6. 7

All Dodge would have to do to increase power output of the Cummins ISB6. 7 to 1000 ft. lbs. of torque and 600 hp would be to hire one of the marketing execs from GM or Furd who creates the specs for the brochures and television advertising. It would be cheap and easy and as effective as Furd and GM's claims.

 

[HBarlow]

Perusing the forum for my brand of RV. I came across this info:
Here are the October 2010 YTD sales for pick up trucks,
Ford F series 29. 9 % inc Volume 434,920
Chevy Silverado 15. 6 % inc 301,998
Ram 2. 0 % inc 158,205

That lead to more research to this article:
Chevy vs. Ford in Heavy-Duty Rumble in the Rockies - PickupTrucks.com News

I was shocked to see that Dodge couldn't keep up with the others.
I don't understand why Dodge can't offer the GVWR towing capacities that the others have. Sure would just hate to have to go over to the dark side when we need a new truck!
With so many RV'ers out there, Dodge needs to get on the ball.
We absolutely love our Dodge but she does have 286,000 miles on her and most of that is towing. Is there any hope that our next truck will be a Dodge????? Diana

I think you are confusing numbers and getting concerned about a non-issue. The GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) figures between the three trucks are very similar if not identical. GVWR is the total allowable weight of the TRUCK or TRAILER alone.

It is the GCWR gross combined weights and trailer towing weights that differ because Furd and GM make inflated claims about their trucks. Those numbers are only published in factory brochures and other advertising copy and are not known by DOT officers because DOT doesn't give a whit what those numbers are. Exceeding them does not mean you are overloaded or illegal in any state.

In other words, because Dodge only claims 26,000 lbs. of gross combined weight for the truck and trailer combination DOT doesn't care one bit if your rig weighs 28k or 30k as long as you have registered your truck and trailer for whatever the actual weight is.

I think the factory gross combined weight specified by Dodge for my '08 3500 C&C is actually 24,000 lbs. The GVWR of my truck is 12,500 lbs. and the GVWR of my trailer is 14,100 lbs. The truck and trailer are each registered for those weights in my home state of TX making it completely legal anywhere in the US or CN weighing 26,600 lbs. over the road. When I was transporting trailers and towing new unregistered trailers with a transport company license plate my previous two Dodge Ram duallies were registered at 26,000 lbs. even though they only had GVWRs of 10,500 ('01) and, I think, 11,500 or 12,500 on the '06.

There are thousands of older, high mileage Dodge Ram duallies all over the interstate highways and truck stops of the US and Canada towing heavy gooseneck flatbed trailers or slant car haulers with combined weights of 30,000 to 40,000 lbs. in hotshot hauler or other commercial service. It is very rare to find a Furd or GM doing that kind of commercial service and the ones that are don't do it for long.

 

[AClayton]

I think this whole entire thread is ridiculous! I am all for buyers choice... ... GM, Ford or Dodge! The OP is complaining about GCWR and then worrying about power, but then contradicts herself saying that there Dodge Cummins does everything it is asked to do. Do a search or stay on TDR often enough to research this subject thoroughly and they will soon realize that Dodge is indeed the best NEW truck one could want for towing. The price is thousands cheaper when compared to the others, don't require DEF, and the 4th Gens are much better than the previous gens... ... ... 'that is my opinion' . The GM is a nice truck and as advertised..... plenty of power and torque, however all that power comes at a price, and that is - how much DEF fluid it required to do the same job as the Cumins did... ... ... . only a few truck lengths behind. I'd rather keep the money the DEF costs in my pocket and save myself the hassle of re-filling that stupid tank all the while watching the Duramax pass me on the grade. For a lousy couple mpg savings in fuel costs, I would consider the truck that doesn't require DEF right now. If and when Dodge does require DEF, the mpg figures will improve also.



On another note and with op's original concern with GCWR, the GM AAM is the same exact axle that Dodge uses also. And with all the discussion regarding what DOT cops look for, it is axle weight ratings. That thought alone should steer you toward the direction of Dodge. If not and as previously suggested, go with the 4500 or 5500 and be completely confident with no hassles about being overweight



Alan

 

[Dutch & Di]

Well, I don't thing the entire thread is ridiculous at all. I thought TDR is a place for all posters to post.
I guess even though I love my Dodge and had the Chevy brochure in my hand which stated higher GVWR ratings than Dodge, it's just not worth arguing with people who read my post then add comments that I didn't make. I will state my facts then wish you all a Happy New Year.
I was not complaining I was stating my disappointment that Dodge doesn't want to see & take advantage of a growing market of RV'ers that have larger heavier 5th wheels and are on the road much more who still want to tow with a pick up truck.
Again, my Dodge does do everything I need it to do BUT if I'm going to get a new truck, I would want it to be in spec. If you say Chevy & Furd fudge on their figures then I would be naive to think that Dodge would not do the same.
If I'm going to tow with a truck ---THAT I LOVE--that is rated to tow less, I see no reason to put out big bucks on a Dodge that still won't make me "legal"
Yes, I know there is are 4500 & 5500's out there but that is just not something we're interested in.
For those who don't tow or tow very little, this is a moot point but for fulltime RV'ers like us, it is just something we are going to have to face somewhere down the road. Diana

 

[RVTRKN]

Well they have real numbers in axle weight capacity. That is what you should base your decision on. Open the doors of the compitition and see what legal numbers work for you. That is what DOT cares about, not the hyped numbers that Ford or GM uses. The axle ratings should be your first concern, BTW D/C has increased the front axle ratings for the 4th gen.

 

[NIsaacs]

If you can hold out on a new purchase, Dodge will come up on the numbers soon, they always do. Keep in mind, when they do, they will have improvments to back it up. One of the big factors in towing with a Dodge, they have always indorsed exhaust brake's, something the competition has been slow to compete with. They are worth their weight in gold!



Nick

 

[THoltz]

Call me paranoid, but, in the event of a serious accident in which you may be at fault, any lawyer worth half his hourly rate is going to make an issue of negligence if you were towing a trailer that weighed enough to exceed the GCWR of your truck, even if you were within the GVWR and axle weight ratings. And with the weights of trailers today, exceeding the GCWR is a distinct possibility. The published tow rating and GCWR of the "other" trucks is an attractive advantage, maybe not a real world, on the road, material advantage, but real enough if it means not having to answer questions in a court of law about why you chose to exceed your GCWR. I think Dodge would do well to beef up their trucks ratings. An accident is just that, an accident. Negligence is not an accident (there is no such thing as accidental negligence) and the payout is much more and potential ramifications on ones financial world much more serious. And besides, a little more horse power/torque never hurts.

 

[HBarlow]

Call me paranoid, but, in the event of a serious accident in which you may be at fault, any lawyer worth half his hourly rate is going to make an issue of negligence if you were towing a trailer that weighed enough to exceed the GCWR of your truck, even if you were within the GVWR and axle weight ratings. And with the weights of trailers today, exceeding the GCWR is a distinct possibility. The published tow rating and GCWR of the "other" trucks is an attractive advantage, maybe not a real world, on the road, material advantage, but real enough if it means not having to answer questions in a court of law about why you chose to exceed your GCWR. I think Dodge would do well to beef up their trucks ratings. An accident is just that, an accident. Negligence is not an accident (there is no such thing as accidental negligence) and the payout is much more and potential ramifications on ones financial world much more serious. And besides, a little more horse power/torque never hurts.

Okay, you are paranoid . . . and also making a frivilous argument. The manufacturer's gross combined weight rating is a meaningless figure in a discussion of legality and financial responsibility that is most often made by those who tow lightweight trailers and wish to throw rocks at those who own and tow larger ones.

Provide a cite of a civil trial where someone has been sued and found responsible for damages incurred as a result of exceeding the mfr's GCWR and I'll take your argument seriously.

If the federal DOT or state DOTs considered GCWRs a meaningful figure federal law would require it to be published on the door post along with GVWR and it would be an enforceable and enforced number.

My truck and trailer exceed the mfr's gcwr but with Dexter HD oversized brakes on the trailer and a BrakeSmart controller it will easily make controlled stops in short distances.

 

[Road Dog]

Call me paranoid, but, in the event of a serious accident in which you may be at fault, any lawyer worth half his hourly rate is going to make an issue of negligence if you were towing a trailer that weighed enough to exceed the GCWR of your truck, even if you were within the GVWR and axle weight ratings.

You're paranoid. In BC the allowed legal maximum licensed weight (i. e. GCWR) is 330 pounds per hp or 77,550 pounds for my 235hp '02. I'm not planning on exceeding that any time soon and I would exceed my GVWR or GAWR long before I reached that number.

 

[NIsaacs]

Wow, I have never heard of that formula. Is there a maximum? In Arizona, a big truck can't go over 34,000 lbs per tandem axle regardless of what the axles and tires are rated at. There is also a distance formula from the drive axles to the trailer axles. If you get under the minimum distance, the weight capacity is reduced. In general, a five axle big truck is rated 12,000 steer, 34,000 drive and 34,000 trailer for a total of 80,000.



Nick

 

[RVTRKN]

Call me paranoid, but, in the event of a serious accident in which you may be at fault, any lawyer worth half his hourly rate is going to make an issue of negligence if you were towing a trailer that weighed enough to exceed the GCWR of your truck, even if you were within the GVWR and axle weight ratings. And with the weights of trailers today, exceeding the GCWR is a distinct possibility. The published tow rating and GCWR of the "other" trucks is an attractive advantage, maybe not a real world, on the road, material advantage, but real enough if it means not having to answer questions in a court of law about why you chose to exceed your GCWR. I think Dodge would do well to beef up their trucks ratings. An accident is just that, an accident. Negligence is not an accident (there is no such thing as accidental negligence) and the payout is much more and potential ramifications on ones financial world much more serious. And besides, a little more horse power/torque never hurts.

Dodge warranty only, but if your not registered for the extra weight, thats when the lawyers swoop in.

 

[Grizzly]

Call me paranoid, but, in the event of a serious accident in which you may be at fault, any lawyer worth half his hourly rate is going to make an issue of negligence if you were towing a trailer that weighed enough to exceed the GCWR of your truck, even if you were within the GVWR and axle weight ratings. And with the weights of trailers today, exceeding the GCWR is a distinct possibility. The published tow rating and GCWR of the "other" trucks is an attractive advantage, maybe not a real world, on the road, material advantage, but real enough if it means not having to answer questions in a court of law about why you chose to exceed your GCWR. I think Dodge would do well to beef up their trucks ratings. An accident is just that, an accident. Negligence is not an accident (there is no such thing as accidental negligence) and the payout is much more and potential ramifications on ones financial world much more serious. And besides, a little more horse power/torque never hurts.

I have a solution for anyone who is paranoid about exceeding the GCWR.



Go buy a Furd or GM!

I'm sure you'll be much happier.



george

 

[Road Dog]

Wow, I have never heard of that formula. Is there a maximum? In Arizona, a big truck can't go over 34,000 lbs per tandem axle regardless of what the axles and tires are rated at. There is also a distance formula from the drive axles to the trailer axles. If you get under the minimum distance, the weight capacity is reduced. In general, a five axle big truck is rated 12,000 steer, 34,000 drive and 34,000 trailer for a total of 80,000.



Nick

Some full sized trucks little motors. My friend's single axle Mack truck is 190hp 4 banger which limits his allowed weight. Plus there's the usual axle limits, length limits, and on and on. Plus the right driver's license. If the trailer is over 4,500kg (10,000lbs) then your regular license won't do.