what happened withe G56 SBC was tearing apart

[ilovetrains]

still wondering

Hmmm, that's funny. Because the torque rating of the g56 is far less than the nv5600.



It will be interesting to see how the solid flywheel actually works out over the long run. If is actually doesn't hurt the g56, don't you think DC could have saved a lot of money using it instead of the dmf?

Still wondering where you can find those torque numbers.



I decided to do a 3rd gear launch last night. I usually start in 2nd, actually the only time I used 1st or L as it has now been named, was when I had 10K on the ball starting up a hill. Not really sure I need it then. anyway, so I am sitting at a light, put it in third lay the pedal down and let the clutch up quickly. I expected some hop, driveline shudder, maybe even a lurch. Instead the tires started smoking like I had 69 Mustang with a blown 302 back. I really miss that car. There was not even a hint of driveline shudder, lurch, etc.

 

[steved]

After all the issues they had in the late 80s/early90s... I'll keep my NVG5600... I have read about a few guys twisting input shafts off in the G56 already... and they weren't even towing/straining... And I have read about several dual mass flywheel problems... not that the clutch in my NVG5600 is perfect (it makes noise), but it is a lot less pricy to fix.



And if this is the same "Tim" that I have seen on other boards (I believe it is since he bought his truck not too long after I bought mine)... he was banned on several others... nice guy, but very abrasive at times... most people end up not liking him.





steved

 

[South Bend Clutch]

Sorry for the delay folks. We have not forgotten about this.



As for Tim being the test truck, we decided not to use his truck for a few reasons and I will keep those reasons off line. We did, however, get a transmission and had it sent to Blumenthals. We tore the transmission down and low and behold, no plastic gears. :-laf



As for the transmission, it does look pretty stout, however, I was asked to hold on my comments until a complete pictoral was done for the magazine. As for the clutch, I don't see why the transmission will not support a solid flywheel conversion. There will have to be a few tweaks done to the clutch to make it fit, but very capable. Blumenthals is suppose to be butting the system up this weekend.



Between Blumenthals and myself we should have an awesome writeup compairing all 4 transmissions with pictures. A couple of other things that were liked about the g56, without going into great detail, is the shifter rack mechanizm along with each gear being independent. The transmission we looked at had about 70,000 hard miles on it. The sincros and gears looked in good shape but all of the bearings had significant wear. (this part I will leave to you oil experts/debaters to determine the fix for that) The OEM oil for the g56 is ATF-3.



I promise I will have more to come and be able to answer more questions here in the near future.



Peter

 

[hasselbach]

Still wondering where you can find those torque numbers.

Several press releases on the g56 put the torque rating at 475 foot lbs.



I've seen significantly higher ratings for the Nv5600 on the manufacturers web site. Check it out for yourself, as I can't recall the exact numbers right now.

 

[Hercules130]

Sorry for the delay folks. We have not forgotten about this.



As for Tim being the test truck, we decided not to use his truck for a few reasons and I will keep those reasons off line. We did, however, get a transmission and had it sent to Blumenthals. We tore the transmission down and low and behold, no plastic gears. :-laf



As for the transmission, it does look pretty stout, however, I was asked to hold on my comments until a complete pictoral was done for the magazine. As for the clutch, I don't see why the transmission will not support a solid flywheel conversion. There will have to be a few tweaks done to the clutch to make it fit, but very capable. Blumenthals is suppose to be butting the system up this weekend.



Between Blumenthals and myself we should have an awesome writeup compairing all 4 transmissions with pictures. A couple of other things that were liked about the g56, without going into great detail, is the shifter rack mechanizm along with each gear being independent. The transmission we looked at had about 70,000 hard miles on it. The sincros and gears looked in good shape but all of the bearings had significant wear. (this part I will leave to you oil experts/debaters to determine the fix for that) The OEM oil for the g56 is ATF-3.



I promise I will have more to come and be able to answer more questions here in the near future.



Peter

what magazine? TDR?

 

[tsi_2baad4u]

Several press releases on the g56 put the torque rating at 475 foot lbs.

And DC puts it behind the 325/610 from the factory? Call me crazy but there is no way a manufacturer is going to use a product at 128% of it's max rating. Did you mean 745? What am I missing?

 

[Cattletrkr]

And DC puts it behind the 325/610 from the factory? Call me crazy but there is no way a manufacturer is going to use a product at 128% of it's max rating. Did you mean 745? What am I missing?

That's why we're all so interested in how it holds up. Those are the numbers put out there. No, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[steved]

That's why we're all so interested in how it holds up. Those are the numbers put out there. No, it doesn't make any sense.

That makes me glad I got a "noisey" NVG5600. That doesn't even make sense... unless DC sees the $$ from future repairs (you know they factor that into their $$ making scheme somewhere) as a good reason.



You do understand why they dropped the NVG5600 don't you??? It was too noisey (It is???) and too hard to shift... durability didn't even come into the equasion... it was about the "general" public (weenies) crying about a manual diesel truck not being pleasant to drive like their subcompact car. That is also the reason for the CRD... noise... the NUMBER ONE complaint among diesel owners... ?... I alway thought that was the reason to own one...



So out the door with reliability and strength for a few people who want a quieter truck... go buy a gasser then, leave our trucks alone.



steved

 

[Tomeygun]

That's why we're all so interested in how it holds up. Those are the numbers put out there. No, it doesn't make any sense.

Those ratings for the G56 were for a euro-spec unit used in a commercial truck, I bet the internals are different for the dodge application, AT LEAST I hope... .

 

[ilovetrains]

Those ratings for the G56 were for a euro-spec unit used in a commercial truck, I bet the internals are different for the dodge application, AT LEAST I hope... .

That is why I wanted to see link to something that specifically gives the torque number for the G56 being placed in the Dodge trucks. The fact that it may have been released with different numbers for other applications may not be applicable here.



Bottom line, if DC purposely put a transmission in a truck that is rated at 610 torque but the transmission can only handle 475 there are looking at a huge class action lawsuit.



Does anyone have a link for these torque numbers?

 

[steved]

Those ratings for the G56 were for a euro-spec unit used in a commercial truck, I bet the internals are different for the dodge application, AT LEAST I hope... .

Well... unless European torque is different... foot-lbs are foot-lbs. I could see a commercial truck being rated less since it would most likely see that input the majority of the time whereas the dodge trucks only see that once in a while... it would be rated for a durabilty factor and not a peak instantaneous torque to make the car enthusist happy.



And I don't see why they would have multiple versions of the G56... a G56 should be a G56... that would be like having two or three versions of the 48RE all with different ratings... but they don't, there is the 45, 46, 47, and 48RH/REs... only makes sense... right?



steved

 

[Grey Wolf]

I think this article by Bruce Mallinson might be of interest concerning High Torque and Transmission life... ...



http://www.dieselinjection.net/frames.html



Select

Bruce's Horsepower & Torque Articles

Then

High Torque and Transmission life. More on Proper Driving Habbits

 

[Tomeygun]

Well... unless European torque is different... foot-lbs are foot-lbs. I could see a commercial truck being rated less since it would most likely see that input the majority of the time whereas the dodge trucks only see that once in a while... it would be rated for a durabilty factor and not a peak instantaneous torque to make the car enthusist happy.



And I don't see why they would have multiple versions of the G56... a G56 should be a G56... that would be like having two or three versions of the 48RE all with different ratings... but they don't, there is the 45, 46, 47, and 48RH/REs... only makes sense... right?



steved

Ahh, but remember the first NV5600? It was only rated at 560 ft-lbs, But when the bigger engines came out, the rating was upped - because of changes or because of legal need?



I think dodge will never tell

 

[ilovetrains]

Well... unless European torque is different... foot-lbs are foot-lbs. I could see a commercial truck being rated less since it would most likely see that input the majority of the time whereas the dodge trucks only see that once in a while... it would be rated for a durabilty factor and not a peak instantaneous torque to make the car enthusist happy.



And I don't see why they would have multiple versions of the G56... a G56 should be a G56... that would be like having two or three versions of the 48RE all with different ratings... but they don't, there is the 45, 46, 47, and 48RH/REs... only makes sense... right?



steved

Keep in mind that DC puts a 241 transfer case in a TJ Rubicon and a RAM. They are compeltely different cases, different input shafts, different output shafts, everything. One is designed for the 4. 0 straight six and the second for the HEMI. But both carry the 241 designation. As far as that goes there are "HD" versions of the Dana 44, different shaft material and different spline count, plus a different bearing design.



The moral of the story here is that the case may be the same, but what is inside is what counts. Which is why I am would like to see a link to something that gives the actual input ratings of the G56 as used in the Dodge trucks.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Ahh, but remember the first NV5600? It was only rated at 560 ft-lbs, But when the bigger engines came out, the rating was upped - because of changes or because of legal need?



I think dodge will never tell

Didn't the diameter of the input shaft get changed/upgraded on later NV5600's - maybe some internal tweaks as well?



I tend to suspect hopes/rationalizations as to several fairly radically differing G-56's is grasping at straws...

 

[opjohnny]

You don't get to use all 600 or 610 ft-lbs of torque in the lower gears. The computer reduces the output until your in 3rd or 4th. That is how the transmission can be rated like that. I don't know if the auto is the same. You are not putting the same kind of stress on the transmission in the upper gears. This info was printed on the bottom of a dyno chart from Cummins.

 

[tsi_2baad4u]

As for differences between Europe and America, there are all kinds of different autos that use the same name. A Volvo, BMW, Mercedes and even Fords sold in Europe are completely different than their exact same name USA spec counterpart. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to have a US spec and European spec transmission with the same name. Whether that is the case I have no idea but it certainly isn't anything out of the norm anyway.



Lower gears are torque multipliers. The torque input to the transmission would be the same (unless the computer really does limit output but I doubt it). Hook up a load and see, you apply more torque to the ground in 1st than in 6th.



All that aside, I still don't believe a company would use a product at 128% of it's rating with the way lawyers are today.

 

[RMachida]

You don't get to use all 600 or 610 ft-lbs of torque in the lower gears. The computer reduces the output until your in 3rd or 4th. That is how the transmission can be rated like that. I don't know if the auto is the same. You are not putting the same kind of stress on the transmission in the upper gears. This info was printed on the bottom of a dyno chart from Cummins.

With a manual trans, I don't believe the ECM doesn't know what gear you're in.

 

[klenger]

As far as I can tell, the CTD does not defuel in any gear with any transmission. I think that's a Chevy thing. The Dodge manual transmissions do not have any gear logic to the ECM that I am aware of, but I suppose the ECM could figure it out from speed vs RPM calculations, but that seems like more trouble than it's worth.

 

[steved]

Keep in mind that DC puts a 241 transfer case in a TJ Rubicon and a RAM. They are compeltely different cases, different input shafts, different output shafts, everything. One is designed for the 4. 0 straight six and the second for the HEMI. But both carry the 241 designation. As far as that goes there are "HD" versions of the Dana 44, different shaft material and different spline count, plus a different bearing design.



The moral of the story here is that the case may be the same, but what is inside is what counts. Which is why I am would like to see a link to something that gives the actual input ratings of the G56 as used in the Dodge trucks.

Ahhh, but all of those tcase HAVE a different designation... the NP241D, the NP241DHD, the Rubicon is a NP241JR (IIRC), and there is a NP241C (chevy), and others I presume... and a D44HD is the same as a D44 short of number of lugs at the wheel (general statement, I know there are a few oddballs)... they all have 16 spline (old) or 30 splines (new) at the carrier, they all have 1-1/16 (old) or 1-3/16 (new) ujoint caps... and ALL those D44s have different designations D443BFJ, D443EF, D443CF, etc, etc, etc... in general short of the addition of CAD, the center portion of a D44 hasn't changed much since 1970.



So I would expect the same for the G56 (maybe we aren't privvy to that information??). And the NV4500 had the upgraded input shaft midproduction... I don't believe the NV5600 was ever really "touched", but I agree with the numbers... they can write down different numbers all day long that look good, but are for conditions we would never see (ie. low torque, high HP, hi torque, low HP, low speeds, hi speeds, etc, etc, etc. ).



steved