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What is BUSH Doing???????
- Thread starter hammersley
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
Can't get the link to work, what did it say?
Off road engines have had certain emmission requirements for some time. We had a bucket loader in the shop, brand new from overseas with a 6bt in it, we had to take the non certified engine out and put a certified engine in to make it legal for sale. This was a couple years ago. Only difference I saw between the two was the AFC version of the VE pump.
I used to be one of the biggest proponents of black smoke and such around. I guess my views have changed as a smoke belching truck makes me sick. Why? you can get virtually the same performance nowadays without all the smoke. (Mean no offense to all the sled pullers out there. ) Personally I can do without another dose of cancer, its bad for the personality.
All I got out of the article was the pushing the ultra low sulfer fuel, which is coming regardless. The big problem will be the expensive soot traps everyone will need ( $6000 a piece at this time. ) Competition will eventually bring the prices down.
Look on the bright side. Pretty much every new model of engine that has come out lately, has had less emissions and better performance than prior model years.
A Johnson
I used to be one of the biggest proponents of black smoke and such around. I guess my views have changed as a smoke belching truck makes me sick. Why? you can get virtually the same performance nowadays without all the smoke. (Mean no offense to all the sled pullers out there. ) Personally I can do without another dose of cancer, its bad for the personality.
All I got out of the article was the pushing the ultra low sulfer fuel, which is coming regardless. The big problem will be the expensive soot traps everyone will need ( $6000 a piece at this time. ) Competition will eventually bring the prices down.
Look on the bright side. Pretty much every new model of engine that has come out lately, has had less emissions and better performance than prior model years.
A Johnson
The problem is that the BUSH Administration HAS Already Adopted this for Over the ROAD Vehicles -
Here's what it said:
Bush wants cuts in off-road diesel pollution
Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration today proposed ordering reductions of more than 90 percent in non-highway diesel engine pollution blamed for thousands of premature deaths, heart attacks and respiratory ailments.
The proposal would force manufacturers of diesel-powered bulldozers, farm combines, marine engines and other equipment not used on roadways to install modern emission controls between 2008 and 2014. It also would require cleaner burning diesel fuel that contains 99 percent less sulfur.
"This is a proposal to dramatically reduce emissions from non-road diesel engines used in construction, agricultural and industrial equipment," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. "It will require stringent, non-road engine controls and reductions of sulfur in diesel fuel. "
The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that by 2030, the White House-approved proposal will have prevented 9,600 premature deaths, 16,000 heart attacks and 260,000 respiratory problems in children. The proposed rule would take effect next year after EPA evaluates public comments.
Construction, farm, mining and marine engines are the main sources of off-road diesel pollution, such as sulfur dioxide that causes acid rain, microscopic soot linked to respiratory problems and nitrogen oxides that form smog.
By regulating these engines, EPA essentially would be bringing the requirements for off-road vehicles and their fuel in line with those for large highway trucks and buses.
Taken together, the package of regulations "will be the most far-reaching diesel programs in the world today," EPA Administrator Christie Whitman said.
Environmental groups such as the Natural Resources Defense Council praised the agency's move.
When it takes effect, said NRDC senior attorney Richard Kassel, "Gov. Whitman's bold proposal will be the biggest public health step since lead was removed from gasoline more than two decades ago. "
EPA already has imposed tougher emissions requirements for diesel locomotive engines.
EPA released the proposal after it learned that two advocacy groups, the American Lung Association and Environmental Defense, were issuing a report Tuesday calling for tougher standards for the off-road diesel engines and fuel.
"The breathtaking hazards posed by diesel exhaust stand in stark contrast to the lack of a comprehensive program to control diesel emissions from all their sources," says the report, which said current federal regulations of diesel engines and fuel are "a chaotic patchwork. "
Particularly susceptible to the effects of diesel exhaust, it says, are children, the elderly, and people with asthma, cardiopulmonary, lung and chronic heart diseases.
Here's what it said:
Bush wants cuts in off-road diesel pollution
Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration today proposed ordering reductions of more than 90 percent in non-highway diesel engine pollution blamed for thousands of premature deaths, heart attacks and respiratory ailments.
The proposal would force manufacturers of diesel-powered bulldozers, farm combines, marine engines and other equipment not used on roadways to install modern emission controls between 2008 and 2014. It also would require cleaner burning diesel fuel that contains 99 percent less sulfur.
"This is a proposal to dramatically reduce emissions from non-road diesel engines used in construction, agricultural and industrial equipment," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. "It will require stringent, non-road engine controls and reductions of sulfur in diesel fuel. "
The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that by 2030, the White House-approved proposal will have prevented 9,600 premature deaths, 16,000 heart attacks and 260,000 respiratory problems in children. The proposed rule would take effect next year after EPA evaluates public comments.
Construction, farm, mining and marine engines are the main sources of off-road diesel pollution, such as sulfur dioxide that causes acid rain, microscopic soot linked to respiratory problems and nitrogen oxides that form smog.
By regulating these engines, EPA essentially would be bringing the requirements for off-road vehicles and their fuel in line with those for large highway trucks and buses.
Taken together, the package of regulations "will be the most far-reaching diesel programs in the world today," EPA Administrator Christie Whitman said.
Environmental groups such as the Natural Resources Defense Council praised the agency's move.
When it takes effect, said NRDC senior attorney Richard Kassel, "Gov. Whitman's bold proposal will be the biggest public health step since lead was removed from gasoline more than two decades ago. "
EPA already has imposed tougher emissions requirements for diesel locomotive engines.
EPA released the proposal after it learned that two advocacy groups, the American Lung Association and Environmental Defense, were issuing a report Tuesday calling for tougher standards for the off-road diesel engines and fuel.
"The breathtaking hazards posed by diesel exhaust stand in stark contrast to the lack of a comprehensive program to control diesel emissions from all their sources," says the report, which said current federal regulations of diesel engines and fuel are "a chaotic patchwork. "
Particularly susceptible to the effects of diesel exhaust, it says, are children, the elderly, and people with asthma, cardiopulmonary, lung and chronic heart diseases.
All they're doing is extending some of the regulations already in place for on-road diesels to off-road diesels. There's nothing new in this that will affect our trucks. Frankly, if you knew the emissions levels of some of these off-road diesels, you would understand why this is being done.
Not worth getting one's knickers in a twist, IMHO.
Rusty
Not worth getting one's knickers in a twist, IMHO.
Rusty
Here in southeast Georgia the pollen counts are really really high and naturally occurring. North Florida and South Georgia have some of the highest per capita lung cancer rates in the country. The point is, most of the pollution occurs naturally and is not produced by humans. Does this necessitate the need to disqualify efforts at making cleaner burning vehicles? No, but I think a bit of perspective is required here. This is another money grab by the politicians in Washington and that's all. Follow the money trail is all I say. Look at the price of diesel fuel relative to gasoline. Diesel fuel is considerably cheaper to get to the pump than gasoline, yet it has averaged 7 to 10 cents more per gallon than 87 octane gasoline for the better part of the last four years in this area. Translation: taxes and gouging of the trucking industry.
John,
Yes, being a middle distillate, diesel may require less refining than, say, 87 octane gasoline. However, principles of supply and demand are at work in this case. Unlike European refineries, American refineries are optimized to produce light distillates (such as gasoline) at the expense of middle distillates (such as diesel fuel). This is because of the relative demand for the products when the refineries were designed and built. Bear in mind that, because of emissions regulations, no new refineries have been built in the United States in at least the last 20 years.
With that driving the supply side, if diesel (and jet fuel) demand has gone up relative to gasoline since the refineries were built, we have a higher demand versus supply for the middle distillates than we do for the light distillates. Put another way, product mix requirements have changed. Higher demand equals higher relative prices. If you don't like diesel prices now, wait until the European "low sulfur" 55 cetane diesel becomes mandatory - that will strain our refineries even more as less low sulfur higher cetane diesel can be produced per barrel of crude oil.
The only way that it's a government "money grab" would be if the taxes on diesel were unreasonably higher than the taxes on gasoline. I submit that higher taxes on diesel could conceivably be justified if the premise is that diesel fueled over-the-road Class 8 trucks produce more road damage than a gasoline fueled passenger car, and the additional taxes are required to fund road maintenance. In that case, the caveat should be that the road tax paid per vehicle road mile is proportional to the stress each type of vehicle places on the transportation infrastructure.
(And, yes, I'm a conservative Republican. I'm also a pragmatist who deals in facts. )
Rusty
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Its all a bunch of hysteria ...
Once again Bush is "going along to get along", which will never work ... the "greeny-weinies" Commu-Nazi's will never like/vote for him.
Off road diesel equipment's emissions is so negligent it is laughable compared to everything else.
It is just more hysteria put out by a few groups with no basis or proof for making their claims that thousands of people will be saved if the emissions be reduced.
It all boils down to the gov't extending it control bit-by-bit over our lives, via this time, from the EPA.
Pray that the next civil war will come soon so we can put these Socialist-Nazi want-a-bes out of our misery.
Once again Bush is "going along to get along", which will never work ... the "greeny-weinies" Commu-Nazi's will never like/vote for him.
Off road diesel equipment's emissions is so negligent it is laughable compared to everything else.
It is just more hysteria put out by a few groups with no basis or proof for making their claims that thousands of people will be saved if the emissions be reduced.
It all boils down to the gov't extending it control bit-by-bit over our lives, via this time, from the EPA.
Pray that the next civil war will come soon so we can put these Socialist-Nazi want-a-bes out of our misery.
Re: Its all a bunch of hysteria ...
Harris County (Houston) Texas is a EPA emissions non-attainment area. Off road diesel emissions (remember, we're a port city with large marine diesels) account for approximately 30% of the NOx and more of the particulates. Hardly insignificant, I daresay... .
You know, to this old engineer, it would really be refreshing in one of these discussions to see some mature objective analytical thought based on logic and fact rather than chalking everything off to John Birch Society-sanctioned One World Government conspiracies.
JMHO... .
Rusty
Harris County (Houston) Texas is a EPA emissions non-attainment area. Off road diesel emissions (remember, we're a port city with large marine diesels) account for approximately 30% of the NOx and more of the particulates. Hardly insignificant, I daresay... .
You know, to this old engineer, it would really be refreshing in one of these discussions to see some mature objective analytical thought based on logic and fact rather than chalking everything off to John Birch Society-sanctioned One World Government conspiracies.
JMHO... .
Rusty
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Way to go Rusty. But your never going to convince some of these guys who already KNOW that diesel particulates do not cause health problems and drive up the cost of everybodies insurance coverage.
But the part of the arguement I can't ever figure out is: What are the Commie/Eco/EPA weenie, etc, conspirators supposed to gain by regulating diesel emmissions?
But the part of the arguement I can't ever figure out is: What are the Commie/Eco/EPA weenie, etc, conspirators supposed to gain by regulating diesel emmissions?
Gas Oils
The fraction below diesel is called gas oil. This fraction is hydrocracked to produce additional diesel and aviation fuel. There is a light and heavy gas oil fraction. I don't known where they draw the line between middle and lower distillate.
The fraction below diesel is called gas oil. This fraction is hydrocracked to produce additional diesel and aviation fuel. There is a light and heavy gas oil fraction. I don't known where they draw the line between middle and lower distillate.
Rusty, your points are very well articulated, but my problems with the price of fuel, particularly diesel fuel is the tax that is added to each gallon of fuel that we pump into our trucks. What I'm about to say is germaine to the area where I live. Other experiences may vary. The summer of 1999 is the first time in my life that I saw diesel fuel prices jump octane 87 gasoline prices. They haven't dipped below regular gas prices since then. What caused the price spike that summer? And if it was just a spike due to supply/demand, why didn't it return to pre-spike prices? I've read a number of reports that show people driving more and more over the last couple of years. More people are buying SUV's, as well, yet regular 87 octane gas prices have not surpassed diesel fuel, nor has it's per gallon pump price risen or declined in a proportionate manner relative to the fluctuations in the price of diesel fuel since 1999. Again, this is what I have noticed in this area of the country. Did taxes on diesel fuel go up dramatically in 1999? What about gasoline? 1999 was the year our engines were introduced. We know that the 24v engine was the product of stricter federal emissions requirements. While supply and demand are overwhelming factors in the price of diesel fuel, taxes and environmental lunacy are playing a large part as well. No conspiracy there, just pretty much a fact of life.
Lee Weber: Come down to my neck of the woods sometime and tell me what you smell? There isn't a high incidence of lung cancer in this area because of emissions from diesel powered vehicles. It is because this area has naturally occuring phenomena that produces very high pollen and mold spore counts. We are just now getting over our annual spring dusting. No matter how hard you try, you can't keep anything clean because of a fine yellow dust that settles on everything. Last I checked my pickup or the Class 8's weren't producing that kind of crap.
I am a long distance runner and train throughout the year. There are some nights in the summer that I can taste the air as I inhale and exhale. Imagine the smell of mold in a stagnant room and that's what I experience. As I said before, my truck is not causing that to occur. Good ol mother nature is.
Lee Weber: Come down to my neck of the woods sometime and tell me what you smell? There isn't a high incidence of lung cancer in this area because of emissions from diesel powered vehicles. It is because this area has naturally occuring phenomena that produces very high pollen and mold spore counts. We are just now getting over our annual spring dusting. No matter how hard you try, you can't keep anything clean because of a fine yellow dust that settles on everything. Last I checked my pickup or the Class 8's weren't producing that kind of crap.
I am a long distance runner and train throughout the year. There are some nights in the summer that I can taste the air as I inhale and exhale. Imagine the smell of mold in a stagnant room and that's what I experience. As I said before, my truck is not causing that to occur. Good ol mother nature is.
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"..... The *** **** Germans got nothin to do with it!!!!... "
Jackie Gleason, Smokey and the Bandit.
Originally posted by Sled Puller
"..... The *** **** Germans got nothin to do with it!!!!... "
Jackie Gleason, Smokey and the Bandit.
:-laf
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