Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) What Would Cause This---Pilot Bushing?

[Dave M]

I pulled the starter a few days ago in my 97 3500 5spd 4x4 to rebuild the starter contacts with Larry B's contacts. I found what looked like copper or bronze metal flakes in the starter gear and the recess in the bell housing where the starter fits.



The only thing I can think of is when I installed my SBC MU 13-1. 25 ConO clutch kit with flywheel last December I messed up the pilot bushing. I had trouble getting the transmission input shaft to engage with the flywheel pilot bushing so my son installed the bell housing bolts and slowly drawed the transmission (connected to the bell housing) into the flywheel. I know... . it was a stupid thing to do but I was tired and desperate at the time.



Could the pilot bushing have been messed up. I had a thread describing my problem... . read starting from post 50-56 on page 5:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com...ns-remove-stock-install-new-sbc-clutch-5.html



I figure I'll get a new pilot bushing and throw-out bearing.



The transmission has seemed a little notchy getting into gear. Not a smooth as before the new clutch but my 2 sons and wife say they don't notice anything wrong..... go figure.



I can't think of anything causing the copper looking flakes to be on the starter gear other then the pilot bushing.



Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this. I may wait a week or two before tackling this since its a big job.



Dave

 

[R C Cola]

Pilot Bushing

Just replaced mine at 250K Bushing $2. 75 , Labor $550 experience priceless. Normally when the bushing is going out there will be a noise when you push in the clutch that very gradually gets disgustiingly irritating. I think I went about 20k before it annoyed me to action. I am told if you let it go way too l long it can take out the front bearings in the transmission, mine are fine. I would not wait that long next time.

 

[GCroyle]

Dave,



I'm not sure that debris from a pilot could migrate all the way to the pinion area of the starter. Does the starter have a bushing supporting the armature in the nose?



Your comments about using long bolts to pull in a trans does lead to the possibility of actually moving the bushing or bearing out of the flywheel and not support the input shaft as intended. Possible causes, incorrect disc position during trans installation, use the alignment tool, check carefully. While you have it apart inspect the dowel sleeves and dowel sleeve holes. These control the alignment of the trans to engine, do not compromise these components.



The attached picture is from an R&R installation, engine side of F/W, that we did shows the displaced pilot, had one dowel sleeve missing.



Good luck.

 

[hsmith]

My ConO with new flywheel came with a ball bearing pilot. You can get some bronze dust from the starter bushings, so you may want to look at that.



Also my new clutch was not smooth and a little grabby 'till I put some miles on it. OK now.

 

[Dave M]

Thanks guys for the great info and especially Gary for the great pic and your input is much appreciated.



I just did not see any damage to the starter gear. I cleaned it up and did not spend time looking at the starter since (of course) my wife needed the truck right away, so I slapped it together quickly.



The starter seems to be working but prior to replacing the contacts it was taking a few seconds more than normal to start. My wife and son drive the truck most of time but when I drove it it seemed to be starting quicker.



I'll pull the starter and look it over but it appeared to be sealed tight and I can't see them copper flakes coming from the starter motor. I sure don't want to pull the transmission if I don't have to.



What symptoms (that weren't already listed) would indicate a messed up pilot bushing? Could anything else in the clutch pack cause the flakes, like a throwout bearing failure?



When I did the SBC clutch kit it came with the clutch, flwheel (came with the pilot bearing in it), throwout bearing. I replaced the trany input shaft retainer with new race and bearing installed, pivot ball and clip and rear Cummins crank seal.



I haven't notice any change in the clutch operation since December when I replaced the clutch.

 

[GCroyle]

Dave, thanks for the comments, hope you find the problem.



The only yellow metal (brass/bronze/copper) in a clutch that I can think of would be in a pilot BUSHING. You have stated that your system came with a bearing in the F/W.



I do not think that the T. O. B. that is commonly used has any yellow metal in it. Covers do not use any and I don't think I have ever seen any in a disc. The only "yellow metal" in a disc could be in certain types of friction material the organic facings have a brass wire in them.



What facing type is installed in your truck?



Is one of them a button type and are you seeing facing debris from the button?



The pilot supports the input shaft. It is "active" with engine running, clutch released (pedal on floor) transmission in gear, truck stopped. This condition has the input shaft at zero RPM and the engine is at engine RPM. With the clutch engaged, pilot is not seeing any RPM difference between crank and input shafts. During shifts, the RPM differential decreases with engagement as the disc gets up to engine RPM.



Let us know what you find.

 

[Dave M]

Gary-The color of the flakes was a dark reddish brown. My SBC clutch is organic not feraceramic. I don't believe there are any buttons on it.



South Bend Clutch - 13-1. 25 Con O



I'm going to call SBC and see what they think. As you can tell I am always worrying about stuff... . just can't stop... ugh!



Thanks again.



Dave

 

[Dave M]

Update:



Just got off the phone with SBC clutch. The organic facing on the clutch material has bronze material woven into it. As the clutch wears it is normal to see the flakes from bronze in the oranic material. I might add there was other blackish type dust with the bronze flakes and I was not sure how that got there. The bronze flakes were mixed into that other dusty clutch material debrie that I was seeing. After 8 months I guess that is normal wear and breakin for this clutch.



Look at this link with an inset pic that shows the "Type of Facings" and look at the "Performance Organic Material" bubble that expands the view of the facing. It looks like bronze/copper wires in the facing:



South Bend Clutch Dodge Clutch Kits Catalog



I'm leaving it alone for now. If it wasn't such a task for me to remove that clutch I would do it just to see if my install goof caused any damage. I'm gonna stop worrying now..... Well I will try.



Thanks all you guys for the moral support and help and especially Gary.



You guys are great!



Dave