When is the aftermarket...

[CM_Guest]

Diesel Power Magazine Training worked for you.

 

[mwilson]

Another use for fuel is as a coolant for the ECU. I know Cat used to use fuel to cool their ECUs and I think Cummins did too. That sounds crazy, but there's a LOT of heat involved with the kind of current flows it takes to operate those big EUIs. They run 90-100 volts in the EUI circuits just to keep the amperage down as far as it is. Of course running fuel through an ECU ALSO is a good deterrent in case Bubba get's the urge to start poking around in the ECU on his new 3406E the way he poked around in the governor on his 3406B. Those early Cat 3406Es had "personality module" installed in the ECU and if I remember correctly, there were 435s and 465s. Something like that. Anyway, when a customer that previously had an old 425-hp 3406C that had been "tweaked" came in complaining about low power on his new 435-hp 3406E, it was real easy to just slip a 465-hp personality module in for a quick fix. Of course once ONE trucker knew about that trick they ALL did and they were lining up at the Cat truck shops to get fixed up. I know that the truck shop at the Cat dealership I worked at had a WHOLE PILE of 465-hp modules sitting there. Until Cat figured out what was going on and made them take pictures of them before and after they'd smashed them with a hammer. And that was done a LOT. I suspect Cat was monitoring parts sales on their new engines. I think I mentioned earlier that they didn't start using fuel coolers for increased performance. They started using them because it's necessary to keep the fuel and fuel system components cool, lubricated and sealed. It's nothing new, by any means.

I remember that going on and saw a few CAT employees get walked out through the exit door as a result.

Mike.

 

[mwilson]

"I should have added that fuel heaters are used in the diesel industry too. Not so much today because the engines "turn over" the fuel in the tank more quickly, but 20-30 years ago you'd see in-tank fuel heaters on a lot of trucks. And I image they are still used a lot up north. They're basicallly just like a heater core - a coil with engine coolant flowing through it that sits in the fuel tank. And there are fuel heaters on some injection pumps, too."


You don't that many in-tank heaters anymore in this area. Any that do exist need either a thermostatic coolant valve or a manual shut-off for warm weather operation as fuel that is too hot will cause power loss.
I drove and wrenched back in the day (before this clean hands job that I have now) and fuel that is too hot will drop you an extra gear or two in the hills. We hauled heavy on the same basic route for weeks at a time so that was a good chance to notice anything that affected performance on a truck that was under powered to start with.

Plus I remember seeing a video in the past where vapors from over heated fuel caused a fire while refueling from static electricity when the fuel nozzle contacted the filler neck. I remember that the fumes when fueling were far worse when you were low on fuel and had been working the truck hard. Of course we used to leave them running while fueling, either from habit or the fact that they probably would not start again without a tow....

A fuel cooler has been standard equipment as a rule on a Daimler Product Class 8 with a single fuel tank. Optional with dual tanks.

Mike.

 

[cerberusiam]

Your laughing has a hollow sound as even Cummins directly disputes what you are trying to force out of the data. The VP-44 is a perfect case in point. Cummins made the statement that did not work out so well in the Dodge platform yet most of the other platforms it was used in had many fewer issues. It just begs the question WHY??? The answer to that lies directly in the platform and usage differences.
The actual differences between platforms the ISB is used in and the ultimate results are pretty well know and documented. It does make me wonder what your agenda is by flat out denying these even exist.

Fuel heaters not used so much today? I can see why if you are seeing 140 degree fuel temps in tractors. Their usage scenarios are such it is not needed and the fuel temp is already beyond the threshold for good injecion\combustion. Contrast with a 2014 Ram that has TWO fuel heaters, yes TWO, and if they are not functional in common usage scenarios the truck either quits or is way down on power for no discernible reason. Tell me, what happened the last time you drove that JD tractor down the hiway at 60 mph with ambient temp sitting at -25 F? Please, explain HOW you equate these conditions to conditions a tractor is designed, built, and used for?

Do you think that nobody has heard of injector cleaning solutions, or, are familiar with what they do? Give us a little more credit than that. You basically poo-pooed the idea injectors could be bad and suggested all one had to do was this magical cleaning thing that only you knew about and all would be right with the Cummins. This was in the same context you claimed that injectors could NOT be the problem with 5000 hours of operation (this is about 200k at 40 mph average, I can figure this out with the hour meter and odo on our trucks). Just to make sure you know the whole story, the injectors were cleaned with SeaFoam prior to replacing. While it did address some issues the underlying problem was still there as VALIDATED by contribution and injector kill tests. As the injectors were replaced 1 at a time and subsequent tests done we could SEE what was happening and tell the differences in both idle quality, acceleration, and injector noise. Stock truck, stock filtration, one ower, 198k and ALL the injectors were way beyond spec as verified by testing. The total hours were actually not much over 4600 total. Again, how do you equate this to your claims of injector life in a tractor?

Where did I ever say you did not know what you are talking about? I told you that your assumptions were wrong but that is far from saying what you interpreted. Take your panties and put them in a drawer so they don't wad up on you. Its a forum with a wide range of opinions, experience, in a lot of areas. You post something obviously hinky SOMEONE will call you on it.

Lets just answer your original question first, the aftermarket has multiple solutions for excellent filtration and fuel delivery systems. Whether or not you think they are is another discussion. You still have not detailed WHY you think they are bad just more general theorizing. Maybe you should look at the filtration and delivery systems on a 2014 Ram and decide whether the OE finally came up with something useful. It is pretty close to aftermarket systems in what it achieves.

 

[JLandry]

Here is a picture of my Airtex...

I can't believe I see dirt under there!

John L.

 

[CM_Guest]

I'm not surprised. And if they worked at a dealership, they weren't Cat employees. They were dealer employees. I've gotten that many times - that I work for John Deere. No, I work for a Deere dealer. But that's what happens when the government gets involved and tries to "govern", which means CONTROL. Eventually, the crap rolls downhill far enough that someone is going to pay for it. When a Cat engine customer comes in complaining about low power to service personnel who basically LIVE to solve problems and help people and have actual loyalty to the brand, or dealer or at least themselves; they're going to do whatever they can to help. Once upon a time when a customer came in with a low-power complaint and everything was fine mechanically, it was HIS fault for trying to outwork the machine. And if he wanted more power, he could either buy a bigger machine or pay for a litte "tuneup" and take the risks. If he did, the seal got broken or the lockwire cut and his "problem" go solved. Then the government decided that they could control "pollution" by somehow crippling engines with emissions that reduced the power. A given amount of work requires a given amount of power. If you reduce the power of each unit doing it, you have to increase the number of units. A 5% reduction in emissions isn't a 5% reduction if you have to have 10% more engines to create it. It's simple economics. But like I said, the crap always rolls downhill and there was a scare campaign aimed at technicians and dealers threatening them with fines if they tried to fix a problem. The manufacturers covered their @sses by making the systems "harder" to tamper with but still making it possible to tamper with them. And then they produced products that were were supposedly superior in every way but yet couldn't do the same work as the old technology they replaced. When it backfired, it sure wasn't the suits or the union employess at the manufacturers that were going to take the heat for lying about the benefits of the product and since the government was FORCING them to lie to stay in business, the government wasn't going to hammer THEM for the problems. Instead, $15-$20 per hour technicians with $50,000 grand in tools to pay for took the heat when a $30,000 engine had to be modified to do what the manufacturer claimed it would do. All that crap about violating emissions laws or altering pollution control systems and threatening anyone who does so with a FINE at the same time you can buy and endless variety of products to do EXACTLY that. But as long as the end user or installer takes the heat, it's allowed. Why do you think they call them "delete" kits? Because that exact same ENGINE is available without all the crap SOMEWHERE in the world and with diesel vehicles it's the ENGINE that has to meet emissions standards, not the vehicle. But you have to test for aftermarket emissions with the engine in a vehicle AND you have to certify that your engine will meet emission standards in ANY vehicle its installed in. Or you can pay the piper and buy your way out of it. Or quit. That's why Cat quit building OTR truck engines. They couldn't make it pencil out no matter WHAT their "profit" was. Cat was trying everything imaginable to meet emissions specs with their "new" engine design from the 90s but couldn't do so reliably and yet Cummins was somehow able to take THEIR antique design and do it profitably? No way. Theres no way an ISX can make the fuel economy it does AND meet emissions standards. But of course Cummins doesn't have anywhere near as many bills to pay as Cat does, so they no doubt have the excess cash to buy off the government. And eventually the customer still foots the bill. Last I heard, it's $25,000 minimum to overhaul an ISX and you have to take it to a certified repair center to do it and they OWN you. I don't think ANYONE makes "will-fit" parts for them so you're screwed if one lays down. Most Cummins dealerships don't work 3 shifts or even 2 shifts the way a lot of Cat engine dealers do so you're going to be sitting there until their "schedule" catches up with you. Personally, I think its hilarious that Cat just said screw it and left all the guys who complained about Cats endlessly and were a PITA to deal with just hanging there with nowhere to go but Cummins or Detroit.

 

[mwilson]

No, the ones that I referenced were CAT employees. Not saying that it did not take place at TEPS dealers as well but those two were in house. Bad for the career.

As far as the ISX, it seems to be one of the most expensive engines to overhaul that I have ever seen. When a turbo is pushing four grand there is a problem somewhere. It is going to kill the second and third tier markets if they don't get the pricing in line with the other big players.

Mike.

 

[JJPage]

I can't believe I see dirt under there! John L.

I was going to comment that it looked very similar to my Walbro setup, minus all the road debris .

 

[SnoKing]

Yes I believe the Walbro and my Airtex pump are very similar. Vulcan quit sell the Airtex claiming that people had them fail, however knock on wood, mine has been fine! I installed it in Dec 09 or Jan 10. Chris

 

[CM_Guest]

Its hilarious how much you DON'T know and that you're repeat ANY diesel industry rumor b.s. Only the aftermarket had solutions? Yeah. When you take OEM or OEM-replacement parts of the shelf and combine them to make a "solution" it's a big achievement? Uh, when we had some injectors failures VERY early on with the first Deere HPCR engines the OEM fuel system manufacturer was ALL OVER fixing it. We replaced the entire filtration and supply system on tractors and went to 10-micron/2-micron.

But guess what? Your focus on filtration systems and the aftermarket STILL doesn't change the FACT that those injectors you claim have a 200,000 service life are built to last MUCH longer and DO. And now you're sitting here talking about injector cleaning systems and still claiming they can't "fix" an injector problem when I know they CAN and DO. Sorry, but I can read between the lines and see you still don't have ANY IDEA what it is we use and you KNOW you got owned. That's your problem. Not mine. You're OBVIOUSLY an aftermarket shill with a Diesel Power Magazine degree in diesel technology augmented by a little truck stop knowledge and years of hearing 10th-hand stories that get passed along and embellished just like any OTHER rumor or gossip.

We're talking about the quality and capabilities of OEM fuel system components. Whether or not a manufacturer USING them is willing to pay to support and improve their products is pretty irrelevant IF they choose not to do so and someone is arguing that a manufacturers failure to support their products is proof that the technology is flawed or less reliable than it is. The fact is that you started your comments claiming tractors and trucks can't be compared on any basis and now here you are several comments later comparing Dodge to other manufacturers while being careful to NOT acknowledge that the OTHER claim you made is COMPLETE b.s. using your own criteria.

Remember when it was only $$$ that made the difference? And that the more expensive a machine is the more reliable it will or SHOULD be? Shall we talk about how ridiculous it is to compare a $300,000 farm tractor built to do an entirely different job to a $50,000 pickup and use the difference in price as "proof" of your argument. Basically stating that the $50,000 pickup has a "cheaper" engine and fuel system even though the components can be basically be identical in price at the OEM level? Maybe THAT'S what all your b.s. is really about and why some Dodge Cummins guys seem to have a hard-on for a Deere technician that comes here to talk Cummins engines.

To accept my LEGITIMATE comparisons and to put all the b.s. aside and just TALK ENGINES instead of extraneous b.s. about OEM engine/OEM vehicle manufacturer politics that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand would require you to face the fact that guys buying new Dodge Cummins pickups are spending 1/5th of the cost of a brand new, state-the-art, technology-saturated, best-you-can FARM TRACTOR. A machine that comes with the the kind of diagnostic, service and product support from the dealer AND factory you have NEVER gotten from Dodge and NEVER will. Why? Because it's cheaper for Dodge to BUY an engine than BUILD an engine and their markup on that engine is probably 50% of their profit on that truck. Dodge makes a killing too, and yet guys are standing in line to overpriced new pickups and crappy service support from a "dealer" that is nothing but a BUILDING and a commission-only salesman that doesn't see anything but a commission check and doesn't care if he ever sees you again because he doesn't HAVE TO.

Our service rate is under $100 per hour. Even out in the farmers field. What does your local Dodge dealer charge? Have you seen much APPRECIATION in the value of your pickup lately? There are 10-year-old Deere tractors in AVERAGE condition bringing more used than their new MSRP. Maybe it's time to admit that what we're REALLY talking about here isn't a difference in technology or cost. It's a difference in VALUE and on THAT basis, you are OBVIOUSLY getting screwed. And when someone with actual knowledge and experience with diesel engines AND customer support AND that has information you DON'T have and is talking about FACTS you haven't heard the RUMORS about yet, it drives you nuts. I find that funny, but also somewhat sad. It's not my fault that what you "know" doesn't match up with the facts. And that's PART of the reason I like posting here and putting out some REAL OEM-level KNOWLEDGE and REAL diesel industry experience. To MAYBE keep some guys from getting HOSED by Dodge and Cummins.

Because if you have ANY REAL experience on the SERVICE side of things, you'd KNOW that Cummins will screw you over just for the FUN of it and that's BEFORE they realize they can make a profit doing so. John Deere builds a SUPERIOR 6.8-liter engine with ALL of the same technology and that meets the SAME emissions standards with INFINITELY better product support, that a pickup manufacturer COULD put in a pickup and that Deere would probably be HAPPY to sell them AND support, but no doubt that would be more expensive for everyone involved, the profits would be lower and they're not about to throw away profit buying something better as long as people keep buying what they're selling. Even IF they could make MORE money selling it. And that Deere engine? It's a true heavy-duty diesel with cylinder liners. Have a nice day.

 

[SnoKing]

OK everyone all together now!

#ad

 

[JJPage]

Have you seen much APPRECIATION in the value of your pickup lately? There are 10-year-old Deere tractors in AVERAGE condition bringing more used than their new MSRP.

I have a 10 year old Dodge pickup that I purchased for $32k. It's in above average condition, with 42k+ on the odo, though I doubt "appreciation", I'll be surprised if I see much of a loss...However, that is dismissing all that has been spent on upgrades (it may be worth more if left completely OEM). These trucks hold their value extremely well, as far as I have noticed.

 

[CM_Guest]

Did you do that ALL BY YOURSELF? You really DO have some technical skills, DON'T YOU? Did you figure out how I "built" that 48RH transmission in my '94 yet? That has to be quite a shock to someone so smart he can sit back and bring NOTHING to the table on a tech forum besides CARTOONS. To find out that you DON'T know everything about Dodge Cummins powertrains? OBVIOUSLY Diesel Power Magaine must NOT have done a 48RH build yet and you must not have a friend who has a buddy who has a cousin who knows this trucker that saw a YouTube video where a guy had one with a triple-disk converter, billet shafts, Goerend valvebody, Mag-Hytech deep pan that lived behind a 800hp Cummins with FASS, 4000rpm GSK, cold-air intake, ARP studs, and o-rings head ported and polished, a "sled-pulling" cam, ATS twins, Scheid P7100, Industrial Injection laser-drilled "injectors", Banks Power Elbow intake w/intake heater delete kit, cold-air intake, 2-stage methanol injection, 3-color pillar gauges, 5-inch MRBP exhaust, and HAND-POLISHED VALVE COVERS WITH A CUSTOM CUMMINS LOGO AIRBRUSHED ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE HOOD. THEN you would know that there are 48RH transmissions. Me? I'm not as smart as you and I don't know Dodge Cummins "facts" like you do. So I just looked up my VIN number.

 

[SnoKing]

#ad


B5....

B9....

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[CM_Guest]

They do hold their value. And a case could be made that that's based on a reputation the OLDER trucks earned that NEWER truck owners benefit from. Because the overall quality of the trucks has gone downhill if you're talking about durability and longevity in a REAL work-truck environment. The bodys have gotten thinner and thinner and more and more of the most VULNERABLE part of a pickup - the FRONT END - is plastic that hitting a PHEASANT can shatter, much less a deer. These days you're pretty much guaranteed an estimate that is going to START at $5000 if you hit a deer when it used to be $5000 would fix a deer strike and repaint the whole truck. But GMs and Fords are no better, so why not lower your quality while you increase your prices if all it takes to convince someone to buy is a "new" engine or exterior redesign?

Farm equipment prices have gone up about the same percentage-wise, but when each new generation of machine is more capable than the last and when the manufacturer is upgrading the entire machine AND producing the engine and under the hood and has the costs and expenses that go with building engines to EPA specs, the increases on the ag or construction side are more understandable and justifiable. Is there anything a $60,000 2014 Dodge can do that a $20,000 2004 or $8000 1994 can't? When you put "value" in THAT context, the equation shifts somewhat.

And leaving one stock or only doing upgrades that can be easily returned TO stock is the way to preserve that value. But even low-mile, well-maintained STOCK trucks are taking a hit in value thanks to the hot-rodders out there all over the internet butchering and modifying and abusing their their brand-new or near-new trucks. And then bragging about how they can do it without voiding the warranty or leaving any evidence on the ECU. The fact is that a LOT of guys that USED to be okay with buying a used pickup will now bite the bullet and pay more for a NEW ONE or just keep driving their old diesels for work trucks and go buy a late-model gas burner 1/2-ton if they're only really wanting more comfort and lower miles in a daily driver. Most dealers won't touch a truck that's been even MILDLY modified truck with a ten-foot pole and if they do take on on trade they wholesale it to some other dealer ASAP. And you can't blame them.

 

[CM_Guest]

Did you have to buy a DTT smart controller to compensate for something? I can see I'm going to have to update the profile on my '94. I forgot to to mention the brake controller and B&H hitch and "custom" trailer wiring. And I didn't mention the Optima batteries, BD steering brace, AGR steering box, Borgeson steering shaft and BD track bar. And I didn't put anything in there about my tires and wheels and the stereo. Hell, I even forgot to mention the BD 215-hp nozzle "upgrade" I did when I installed my "custom" zero fuel plate. Then there's the 450,000 mile stock '90-something turbo I bought off ebay for $250 because I needed one fast and cheap and didn't want to dick with putting a big downpipe on it. That's CRUCIAL information. Oops, I forgot my Isspro boost gauge, too. I didn't put a a "pyro" in it yet because I couldn't figure out if I should put it at least one or two exhaust-pipe diameters BEHIND the turbo like OEM truck manufacturers do so they get accurate EGTs or right up next to or in FRONT of it like the real diesel experts do. Apparently so they have a "high EGT" problem to fix with MORE BOLT-ONS. And THAT means they get to update and expand their signature so it's really a win-win. Now I have access to a real diesel expert. So where did you put yours?

 

[cerberusiam]

Uh, when we had some injectors failures VERY early on with the first Deere HPCR engines the OEM fuel system manufacturer was ALL OVER fixing it. We replaced the entire filtration and supply system on tractors and went to 10-micron/2-micron.

Uh, did Dodge fix the problem let alone even acknowledge it after they were made aware of the isues by Cummins and Bosch? No, WE as users came up with the solutions. Those solutions are reflected in the aftermarket use of of-the shelf products that COULD have been used by Dodge but weren't because it wasn't the plan. Get real, the whole difference between equipment and throw away vehicles is due directly to the public buying trends and what we will put up with. If JD did not address the issues they would end up with a dropping market share, thats is the reality.

But guess what? Your focus on filtration systems and the aftermarket STILL doesn't change the FACT that those injectors you claim have a 200,000 service life are built to last MUCH longer and DO. And now you're sitting here talking about injector cleaning systems and still claiming they can't "fix" an injector problem when I know they CAN and DO.

Oh, but it does change how long they last in practical application. Fact you seem to want to ignore even though you validate it every chance you get. The rest is pure BS. You really want' me to believe an injector cleaning is going to cure a galled pintle rod or an ovalled pintle seat or worn return orfices??? That is total crap no matter HOW you want to portray it. You work on tractors NOT Dodge trucks with a Cummins engine by your admission. Why would anyone believe a theory that is directly refuted by hard fact? Answer, we do NOT!

We're talking about the quality and capabilities of OEM fuel system components. Whether or not a manufacturer USING them is willing to pay to support and improve their products is pretty irrelevant IF they choose not to do so and someone is arguing that a manufacturers failure to support their products is proof that the technology is flawed or less reliable than it is.

BS, the fact that better components exist and are NOT used is the crux of the differences. You are trying to compare costs, life expectancy, and all the rest of the parameters that directly affect an engine then say it doesn't matter. Your whole rant at this point is now taking the shape of JD is better than Cummins, everybody is getting raped by Dodge and Cumins, blah, blah, blah.

News flash, we KNOW that, have for years, and WHAT are the choices? Duramax? PowerStroke? Tell me, does JD produce an engine used in a pickup truck? Whether or not they can, whether or not they are better is NOT the point. DO THEY DO IT? Resounding NO is the answer so now we are back to what we have.

You started this thread asking about aftermarket fuel delivery systems then took it into a political rant because you feel that JD is getting the short end of the stick. Every time you are asked to provide even a small explanation of the concepts you go off and accuse everybody of being dumb, ignorant, and out of touch. What exactly is your agenda?

One last question, are your initials really HB?

 

[SnoKing]

Did you have to buy a DTT smart controller to compensate for something?

Yes is takes care of most the issues that Cerberusiam explained to you on your 47RE thread, where you are trying to learn about your transmission! It keeps the torque converter locked for the exhaust brake to function. I also locks the TC in second gear if you manually shift to 2nd to descend a steep grade on the exhaust brake. Has lots of adjustment to over come the issues that you are seeing, giving the user control of the lockup and when the transmission shifts into OD. It also has an override setting to unlocked the TC at a given throttle amount to protect the TC clutches. However they do not sell it anymore. There are others out there, but DTT's was maybe the most robust one available. But heck what do I know, I am just an un-education user according to some on this board. Chris

 

[SnoKing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG65TvPq9VY

 

[SnoKing]

Look what I found!

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...emperature-input-to-VP44-80*-100*-your-inputs

Chris