Who are 3rd party FCA inspectors?

[endoscott]

Long story short, the "broken valve spring" I was talking about in another thread was tip of the iceberg. #6 piston and cylinder just hammered. No idea what led to the broken spring but mechanic was speculating about "hydrolock", not sure exactly what that means or what the cause would be. It's a 2014 with 78,000 miles and it blew up driving down the freeway. Not really grenaded, just sounded like driving over expansion joints for a minute along with loss of power. Immediately pulled off, fortunately it happened right at an exit. Got towed to the Lithia dealership in Eugene, huge shout out to those guys, best service writer and service manager of any dealership I have worked with. That part of it could not be better. The MaxCare warranty experience was great for the tow, but after that not so good. I am open to upgrading my opinion of them as it goes along, but for now my question for the more engineering oriented people on the forum is this: who are these 3rd party FCA "inspectors" and what are their qualifications. Should they recommend a "long block" over a complete remanufactured Cummins engine, what would they base this on? Are they qualified to determine that none of the components to be re-used on a long block would not have been the CAUSE of the failure to begin with? I mean once the head was pulled the other 3 valves were hammered, probably the valve seat fell out and rattled around for a minute and piston and cylinder wall just wrecked. I can't attach pics due to super slow internet where we are currently, but will try again later.

I have tried to be a reasonable customer and I am not that mad about having it blow up because I understand its not a perfect world and stuff happens. But this truck has never had any mods, always maintained exactly by the book by DEALER (just had fuel filter done recently, ahead of schedule since we had a big trip planned), and always cooled down before shut off, never idled a long time, really driven by the book. Usually we are towing a 5th wheel so it could have been way worse, but still, out of town catastrophic failure is a bad thing especially at such low mileage. Is there anything adverse that could possibly result secondary to fuel filter change? That was the most recent service, along with oil change.

So it happened last Sunday, towed to dealer who shoehorned us into schedule, found the broken valve spring, got head off Tuesday AM, to find piston cylinder destroyed, and I called Max Care at 11AM, talked to a guy and was told 24-48 hours for inspection. OK, fine. "No way to expedite, that's as quick as we can do it". So....should be there by Thursday 11 AM right? Uh, well, he didn't actually "call it in" until 1PM whatever that means. So then it's Thursday 1PM. Nope, nobody shows up. Service writer calls them and ALSO gets the old runaround. I mean I have called multiple times, talked to 5 different people and got 5 different (BS) stories. Last gal told me 3-5 days for inspection. What the fork! Friday we just gave up and got a rental car to proceed to our destination where we need to make sure our 5th wheel is OK after a year of Covid. Inspector finally shows up Friday at 6 PM but we didn't know that until today.

He implies to service writer they will cover a "long block". I say BS, unless you KNOW none of the peripherals actually LED to this catastrophic engine failure, give me a complete reman Cummins.

What say you all? Is the inspector they sent out from a Cummins engineering background and qualified to determine the actual cause of failure? Or does this engine need to go back to Cummins for that. Of course they won't give me any way to contact the inspector at all. Only the dealership can talk to the inspector. I don't like the lack of transparency and I am very disturbed to have catastrophic failure on an engine with NO MODS EVER, all maintenance by the book, by a dealer, and I drive it about as soft as you can for a truck. 5th wheel is only 10,000 fully loaded, should be cake for a CTD right? I thought these engines will go a million miles!

Can these inspectors DEMAND a long block and DENY a Cummins re-man complete engine? Who are these guys? Who do they answer to? What are their qualifications? What is the nature of the relationship between FCA and these "3rd party" inspectors?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[endoscott]

piston and cylinder....I know they are not the same thing!

 

[Ltngdrvr]

Well, back when my valve spring failure happened, it took the dealer 28 days to get it done, and quite a bit of that time was waiting for those 3rd party inspectors to come around and look at the damage found, and yes, they take their own sweet time doing it! And then you wait for them to give their report to the warranty administrator.

And, so, it was not just the valve spring that failed on your engine, sounds like it dropped the valve, or the valve head broke off and destroyed the cylinder and piston and the other valves as it bounced around.

A long block is perfectly fine to replace your damaged engine, the only other worry I would have, would be any debris from the destroyed cylinder getting blown out through the turbo, damaging it in the process. No other parts they would transfer from the old engine to the new long block should be affected by the cylinder damage.

Now, a good tech will give that his due diligence and check the turbo when he pulls it. Is the tech working on the truck that good???

Of course, if the tech determines the turbo is bad, that will mean another call to the 3rd party inspector and another wait for him to show up...

Also, I can't see any way the cylinder could have been damaged by any hydrolock to cause the valve spring to break.

 

[Ozymandias]

Whats wrong with a long block? That is a whole new engine.

 

[Ltngdrvr]

Also, the 3rd party inspectors are independent technicians that FCA warranty contracts with to be their eyes, keep the dealer techs honest, and not spend any more of FCA warranty money than absolutely necessary to get the vehicle back on the road.

 

[Ltngdrvr]

Whats wrong with a long block? That is a whole new engine.

Not a "whole new engine", a long block is the basic bare engine, does not include any outer parts like the timing cover, valve cover, manifolds or any exterior parts. All of those parts would be transferred from the old engine to the new long block.

And, I'm sure the long block would be a reman, not brand new.

 

[Ozymandias]

Not a "whole new engine", a long block is the basic bare engine, does not include any outer parts like the timing cover, valve cover, manifolds or any exterior parts. All of those parts would be transferred from the old engine to the new long block.

And, I'm sure the long block would be a reman, not brand new.

Yes I know, why should they give away all these parts for nothing? They are perfectly fine to reuse.
A turn-key engine would really be a total overkill in that situation were only one piston is gone.

Don't forget that we all together pay these warranty claims included into the MSRP.
The more (unnecessary) warranty claims the higher the new car prices, that's why Stellantis is so much into that and does not accept every claim that a dealer sends in, they had way to many returned parts that were not broken at all, just exchanged randomly.

 

[Tuesdak]

IMO the broken valve spring was the cause. The valve would have been hammering the piston until something else broke. Depending on where the spring broke it could have run awhile or broke the valve quickly. A dropped valve seat doesn't break a spring so the broken spring was first.

The long block is replacing most of the damaged parts. As noted debris could have hurt the exhaust side of the turbo. A good tech will check the intake and exhaust for remaining debris before bolting in a reman engine.

Hydrolock would have ventilated the block from a busted rod at speed. Normally it's found on attempted startup with a bent rod as a normal result. Or driving into water that's too deep...

I sincerely don't think a "complete reman Cummins" is any different than a "long block", no matter the included parts, to address the failure cause (broken spring) and damaged parts. The only question is again, possible turbo damage.

On the plus side a reman long block is better than fixing yours esp. for waiting time. I am curious what incidentals you may be charged like oil and filter.

 

[Topzide]

As others have mentioned, Tech should be check all the parts that will be reused as they due the tear down. I would be in contact with service dept. to discuss your concerns about the debris that may have traveled through the system. Nothing wrong with having the long block done. Sounds like the service dept. is doing what they can for you, just keep those lines of communication open! Warranty repairs are difficult to navigate through. We feel that they are being to "cheap", but they're a business that is operating to turn a profit. It's a risk/reward on our part when we purchase extra warranty let alone the factory warranty when new. They hedge a bet on the money collected will outweigh whats paid out on claims. Good luck and sorry that it happened with what sounds like a very well kept truck. Anything man makes can have issues! We're not perfect,"yet".

 

[lpennock]

Since they have it torn down anyway I would ask them to check the grid heater bolt. Even if they say it is fine I would ask them to replace it, even if I had to pay for the part.

 

[mwilson]

Long block is pretty much an industry standard in your situation. No worries.

If any other damaged or suspect parts are found they will be replaced as required...with the exception of consumables and normal wear items...

 

[endoscott]

Thanks so much! TDR is such a fantastic group of people. I should hear back today on the final decision. Will post some pics if my internet works. We are kind of out in the sticks right now.

 

[endoscott]

 

[Tuesdak]

Might ask if they are having the injectors tested in case one got hit by the derbies. It would be clear on startup if one was bad.

the broken spring and valve would be interesting pictures. Did the spring break or did the keeper fail and drop the valve? The head off my 2003 looked way worse. Esp cause someone cleaned it up and slammed it back on.

All pushrods need to be checked for being bent. But a longblock should have a different set already installed.

 

[endoscott]

I never saw the spring, not sure if the tech found the pieces or not, will check though. I think the Cummins long block includes injectors.

 

[endoscott]

It seems like the #6 cylinder is where most of these problems occur. There must be some reason for that.

 

[lpennock]

It runs hotter.

 

[Ltngdrvr]

View attachment 127630 View attachment 127631 View attachment 127632

Yeah buddy, made a big old mess out of that cylinder!

They will most definitely not try and repair that, only a replacement of the long block will be done in that situation.

Might ask if they are having the injectors tested in case one got hit by the derbies. It would be clear on startup if one was bad.

the broken spring and valve would be interesting pictures. Did the spring break or did the keeper fail and drop the valve? The head off my 2003 looked way worse. Esp cause someone cleaned it up and slammed it back on.

All pushrods need to be checked for being bent. But a longblock should have a different set already installed.

If you look at that 3rd pic of the top side of the head, you can see the valve stem is still in the hole, so the valve head broke off, as I suspected from endoscott's description, and that bouncing around in there did all the damage. I imagine the broken spring stayed in place after it broke, but allowed the valve to drop enough that the piston hit it and broke the head off.

As to the injectors, not sure if they are supplied with the long block or not, definitely would be better if they were.

And, the long block will most definitely have the pushrods already installed.

 

[Ozymandias]

Can someone with insight tell us what a long block from Cummins through RAM includes?

 

[bcbender]

My brother broke a valve off like that in a Jeep 2.5L engine back in the 90s (over reved it)... Punched a hole in the piston, destroyed the head, and when I pulled the valve head out of the bore, it was pounded square! I kept if for years a paper weight / discussion starter.....