Who had the Coldest start. How did it go?

[zstroken]

My 97 before it was a puller, and bone stock, fired off a few years back at -10. Now it struggles to fire off below 60 without ether assist.

 

[JJW_ND]

From my experiences...

I have had serveral cold overnight starts in the mid -20s. Most times it started sometimes it did not. The average stock 12V in good mechanical condition would have problems much below -25. Here is what I base that on. Most run dino 15W40 yearround. It quits flowing at -15 and puts a tremendous drag on engine at that temp and below. A 5W full synthetic oil makes a noticable differencce. I run 5W40 yearround. The grid heaters pull a crazy amount of amps. We cycle them once, twice, three times. Then crank 10 - 60 seconds to attmpt to get the engine going. A good battery (x2 of course) will most likely not allow a second attempt if it had a overnight cold soak at temps below -25. Batteries that have some age or less then normal output will probaboly not even crank very long the first time if at all after the grid cycles. We are so used to starting with no throttle, you will most likely need to add throttle and it has to happen the first time. Winter fuel with #1 does not start as good as straight #2 (that is treated). I also believe the current ULSD is not as winter friendly. I run Straight #2 treated with Stanadyne or Amalgamated. It makes a differnce that I notice when cold.



Things like bigger injectors, thicker headgaskets, high timing all will raise (warmer temps) the temp a engine will successfully start.



We have a dozen mix of Ford and Dodge Diesels (mostly late model). They sit outside all then time and rarely are plugged in. They all have their issues with starting. As they are all stock with 15W40 (do not use then alot in the winter) when it is below -20. . there is a 50:50 chance any one of them will start successfully.



Here is what I do that seems to work for me when you have to do a cold start not plugged in:



Cycle the grids twice. Crank as soon as the second cycle ends. If it does not fire in the first few seconds (and you feel you have good batteries... . cranks pretty fast) quickly cycle the grids again one more time and crank. If it fires, keep cranking until it runs on its own. Many times it will fire but dies when you release the key. If you get it to fire keep cranking until it runs... add throttle on the 12Vs helps. Once it runs for a few seconds and you got oil pressure, try to increase the idle to 1000 - 1200 and let it warm.



Plug in below -10 is always the best bet.



jjw

ND

 

[EKlem]

I still rest by my statement about compression... taking the grid heaters out of the equation, and a Cummins will still start. If the compression is even a point off, that would definitely make a difference in starting. IDI/DI might play a part, but if the fuel is reaching the cylinders, then they should pop off.



steved

Yes, compression is really important. A higher compression engine gets the cylinders hotter which will help ignite the fuel. However, a high compression engine takes more to crank so it must have appropriately sized batteries and starter. There is a reason why the guys running reduced compression ratios because of things like thicker head gaskets and different pistons have trouble starting.



Another important factor if you look beyond the world of pickup trucks is cylinder size. A larger cylinder will have a higher volume to surface area ratio so it doesn't loose as much heat to the block. Again, the starting system must be appropriately sized but if it is, a larger engine will start better.

 

[nickleinonen]

with the idi engines, you loose a lot of heat in the pre combustion chamber. . if your glow plugs are not working well, the air in there will cool real quick and the fuel being sprayed in the cup will help cool the air down even more.

with the di engines, you have a finer atomized mist of fuel and it ignites easier. in a idi, the injectors are more pintle nozzle type. they get the fuel in the hole, but don't do near as good of a job atomizing the fuel. .

kinda like putting some varsol in a spray bottle. . when set to a fine mist, it ignites very easially with a match, when set to a stream spray, it tends to put out the match before igniting.

 

[Skydiver]

Now I get it.

Thanks again.

 

[I-6DZL]

I'm sure you're aware of the PS steering pump issues in the 2nd gens... I had a whining PS pump in the cold, finally changed the fluid out (incrementally) to a full synthetic. It helped a lot (no more whining PS pump when it was cold and I never had PS issues in that truck).





steved

Yea i'm aware of them, just too lazy at the moment to do anything about it! Still need to find a good synthetic p/s fluid.



Curtis

 

[Highfinance97]

Yea i'm aware of them, just too lazy at the moment to do anything about it! Still need to find a good synthetic p/s fluid.

Curtis

My brother just finished his last night (Box And Pump) and he put Royal purple in.

Ill keep you updated on that


Michael

 

[steved]

I ran Valvoline synthetic PS fluid in mine with good results... dad current has 280k on his truck with the same stuff. We routinely saw temps approaching -10*F every winter.

Remember, some trucks called for actual PS fluid while others are spec'd for ATF... figure that one out!

steved

 

[BILLVO]

Just got back from Colorado (Pagosa Springs) and didn't plug in. New batteries and I had to cycle the heaters 4 times and with some starting fluid to get it to start

You must like fireworks, starting fluid and gridheaters are not a good combo together. You got lucky. If you must use starting fluid unplug the grid heater relay first. I saw a 5. 7 diesel buick blow both heads and the intake clean off the block. It really humped the hood up quite a ways also after he loaded it up with ether.

 

[rbattelle]

Wow, for the first time ever the Powermaster gave a response that is, for the most part, useless. I'm gettin' a bit worried about the goings on over there in Columbus!



What I asked:

Dear Powermaster,

Some of us over at TDR were debating about just how cold you can start a 5. 9 with and without the grid heaters (assuming no block heat).



Anyway, can you shed some light on this? I assume you've tested the 5. 9 to find it's minimum start temperatures.



So, what are the minimum start temperatures for a 5. 9 with:



P7100 injection pump

VP-44

Common Rail



With and without grid heat.

Solution:

Thanks for your Email message. You have contacted Cummins, Inc. at our Customer Assistance Center located in Columbus, Indiana. This is our worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins founded the company February 3, 1919.



Anytime the temperature is below 40 degrees Fahrenheit the grid heaters will automatically activate. Thusly the lowest temperature would be 41 degrees Fahrenheit without the aid of the grid heaters.



It is important to go when you get oil pressure at those temperatures. Otherwise the engine may never get hot enough to see efficient combustion.

I'm going to re-ask the question. I guess I wasn't clear.



Ryan

 

[JR2]

I tried to start an 06 6ltr Ford today at -35 F. It had not been plugged in for two days. The thing turned over once and that was all she wrote.

As for my 24v, I have started it at -10 to -15 a few times. No problems, just cycle the grids twice and all is good. I have an ESPAR now so no cold starts for me.

 

[MCummings]

Here's mine. . 010 shaved pistons, . 020 over Headgasket, and Smarty/Comp Box.



It was 32*F for a day or two, and the truck had been sitting for 48hours or so.



<embed src="http://video. thedieselgarage.com/vidiac. swf" FlashVars="video=ea50ec41-2e8d-4b69-93af-98c10187fe5c" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" width="428" height="352" name="ePlayer" align="middle" allowScriptAccess="sameDomain" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed>



Merrick

 

[rbattelle]

Wow, Merrick, that was amazing. Now I know what they mean by "washing machine full of rocks". Actually, that sounded like a washing machine full of 1 large rock.

Ryan

 

[I-6DZL]

My brother just finished his last night (Box And Pump) and he put Royal purple in.



Ill keep you updated on that





Michael

Thanks for your reply. I didn't know Royal Purple made synthetic p/s fluid, but that's great news because i use RP in the diffs.



Thanks

Curtis

 

[DMcLeod]

Interesting read. When I first moved to Fairbanks, I started her up at -31F one morning after cold soaking for 2 days. I recall giving 2 cycles on the grids and a little throttle just after she fired. I believe your typical 12V lead acid battery can be more limiting than the engine itself at these temps. At -30F, a lead-acid battery is only about 18% efficient and somewhere just below -40F this battery approaches 0% efficiency (according to some charts I have). These figures seem to hold true in real-life Alaska conditions, which explains why everyone around here also uses a battery heater when plugging in.

 

[tgordon]

Wow DM, that information abou tthe battaries is interesting. Growing up we had a 1256 IH that had no block heater and I have started as low as -15 with a little huff of either, the 706 IH with the 310 has started down around -13 without even using either. Guess that is why those were our generator tractors JD 4850 starts getting hard to start about 40, and at 30 you better have a outlet nearby or either on hand.



If all parameters were combined IE high compression, large displacment per cylinder, cranking capaity, timing advance, and more, I wounder what the coldest a diesel can start without any assistance would be?????



Troy

 

[WDaniels]

DMcLeod,

Glad to hear from you. But battery blankets and pads are the worst thing for our batteries, save a bullet through the middle of it. As the battery starts getting older the lead sulfate falls to the bottom and the heat from the pad or blanket sets up convection currents and will pile the sulfate up under the strap that connects the plates and short out the battery. If the battery has a full charge it will not freeze no matter how cold it gets. If you plug your truck in it will not matter about the batteries being cold. I would love to see the specs you found on the batteries in the cold. That would be educational for me.

Thanks.

If you want to get together for a cup of coffee or something, let me know.

WD

 

[BILLVO]

WDaniels



I have on many occassions taken batteries out of cold rigs that wouldn't even make a full revolution. Put them in a warm place to warm up, I have put them in a tub of hot water then reinstalled them and it cranked over like it was warm out. No charging them just warming them.



I once went on a service call to a redneck construction co and saw the scariest thing I have seen. They would actually take a steel bar and throw it across the posts and dead short the battery for a few seconds to warm the battery up that way. I stood about 100 yards away when I found out what they were doing. I have seen batteries blow but they claim to have never had anything bad happen. I saw them do that to about 6 pieces of equipment that day that wouldn't start and all but 1 started by doing that.



I just kept my distance.

 

[steved]

An old trick I was told was to turn the headlights on for a few seconds just prior to starting... this supposedly causes the battery to warm and start better in cold temps.



My grandfather magnetized things by shorting them across a battery... watched him magnetize and demagnetize screwdrivers and wrenches all the time...



steved

 

[EKlem]

An old trick I was told was to turn the headlights on for a few seconds just prior to starting... this supposedly causes the battery to warm and start better in cold temps.

I have heard this as well. I would think that on our trucks, the grid heaters take care of this.