Competition Would there be any interest in an aluminum cylinder head?

[Morse]

I just got off the phone a little while ago with a shop that is at the top of the game in the LS1 cylinder head field. We were discussing the possibility of creating a high flow billet aluminum cylinder head for our cummins motors. It is possible, though not cheap at all. . I would have to fund the project, and he would produce them. A lot of people say an aluminum head isn't great for a diesel, though the dmax has been living through huge EGT numbers and lived. When it was said and done, he said we would have to sell them for atleast $2,000-$3000 to hopefully recoupe the initial costs? In the diesel world nowadays, that didn't sound out of the question to me at all. .



Do you all feel a new high flow cylinder head could be a good addition to the diesel performance market? Do you all feel that kind of price would be out of the question if the performance was increased significantly? This idea is just that, an idea. .

 

[RacinDuallie]

Provided that the port size is increased with room to grow, larger valve size, and keep in mind the height of head- for cowl clearance when removing rocker cover... ... it would have a lace in the market... ... .

 

[Big MAK]

I think it would have a place for sure. But keep in mind the reason it works in the dmax is they also sleeve their cylinders to protect the pistons/cylinders from the diifference in the expansion coefficients of the different metals. So if boring and rebuilding sleeved it would probably work great. But not so great w/o the sleeves. So. . how thick do the sleeves have to be to protect the cylinder from getting tore up by the piston and is there room to bore to that size in the B5. 9 block?

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I would buy a streetable/water jacketed aluminum head that flowed like an LS1 head for $5k right now.

 

[GHarman]

I just got off the phone a little while ago with a shop that is at the top of the game in the LS1 cylinder head field. We were discussing the possibility of creating a high flow billet aluminum cylinder head for our cummins motors. It is possible, though not cheap at all. . I would have to fund the project, and he would produce them. A lot of people say an aluminum head isn't great for a diesel, though the dmax has been living through huge EGT numbers and lived. When it was said and done, he said we would have to sell them for atleast $2,000-$3000 to hopefully recoupe the initial costs? In the diesel world nowadays, that didn't sound out of the question to me at all. .



Do you all feel a new high flow cylinder head could be a good addition to the diesel performance market? Do you all feel that kind of price would be out of the question if the performance was increased significantly? This idea is just that, an idea. .

My engineering experience is non-existent. Practical experience is limited to the Aluminum head on the '79 Volkswagen diesel engine. The head cracked between all 4 exhaust-intake valves after 150,000 miles of operation. As a welder-fabricator I know that aluminum has a finite life compared to iron alloys. Expansion and contraction cycles work-harden aluminum, with the incomplete and uneven heat-up of the aluminum head exacerbating the the expansion-contraction process. Each head bolt is a heat sink, each combustion chamber is a hot spot. Aluminum is a great conductor of heat but it does so at a price. I do not want to discourage you in your pursuit but I will not buy a replacement head that is made of aluminum. Is there any way that the cast iron head could be improved? What is the goal of the aluminum head other than a lower temperature melt, ease of manufacture? Just my thoughts, Greg

 

[GHarman]

PS Why not titanium as a head material, besides expense! Greg

 

[Morse]

I just brought this up to a shop that used to do my gas motors, and the conversation just got deeper from there. . I know very little information about the cylinder heads we currently have, much less how to build an improved one. . Brian Tooley of Total Engine Airflow was the person I spoke to. His shop is joint with Summit Racing in Ohio. He said he would have no problem designing an improved cylinder head, and producing it. . All it takes is the money to make it happen. .

 

[zstroken]

2K-3K wouldn't be that bad if it was a complete head. I mean look what you spend on getting a head ported.

 

[Eric_B]

titanium

It is to my understanding that titanium does not have a long life when it comes to heat cycles. If fatigues somewhat quicker than aluminum, cast iron or say 4340(or other) types of steel. This is just what I read and learn various racing publications. (not Diesel Power). I do not claim to have any professional knowledge of this either though.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

TFS/Summit was going to do a head for the 2. 3 pinto motor for us, but Esslinger beat them to the cut.



SOMEONE needs to step up!!!!! $2-3k is nothing

 

[Sled Puller]

For 3KI think you'd have a waiting list.



Just be prepared for something bad to happen, and this board burning your house down. :-laf

 

[mattymac]

It is to my understanding that titanium does not have a long life when it comes to heat cycles. If fatigues somewhat quicker than aluminum, cast iron or say 4340(or other) types of steel. This is just what I read and learn various racing publications. (not Diesel Power). I do not claim to have any professional knowledge of this either though.

Depends how hot, Alot of the Titanium clutch parts used in snowmobiles that I and MANY others run can take heat cycles alot better than steel parts. Most people go though a set of springs in a season, Ti springs last atleast 3-4 seasons through hundreds if not thousands of heat and side force/twisting cycles. Maybe not the temps that our cyl. heads see but around 3-400 degrees at least. One thing I have also found out is running Ti nuts and bolts, they dont like to hold, they are always backing out because there is no flex in the threads like there is in steel and aluminum, Im always having to go though and retighten things.



As for the alum. cy. head, at 3-4K ready to go with O/Fire rings setup ready to bolt on with your choice of valve sizes and spring choices, tell him to get to work!

 

[raychem]

Count me in for one. . even @ 4k if we can get a head to flow close to doulble what we can now it would leave more room for air and fuel... . hehehe!!!!



Richard

 

[Jim Fulmer]

My opinion is our cyl heads suck, there designed to cool for towing not flow air. Darren Morrison and I were talking at the TS event how much power we could make with a head that would flow 400 cfm with our current cams... . no need in buying all the expensive stuff for a cam with 600+ lift when the stock stuff will work at our RPM level.



Jim

 

[mattymac]

Also thats how the D-Max's have a big advantage over us, their heads can outflow ours by a pretty good margin.

 

[RCenters]

I used to work for Brian when he was in Bowling Green and i raced mustangs , he knows his stuff and he can make it work and flow #ad




Had a superstock tractor aluminum head in there once it was 4ft tall !!!!!

 

[Forrest Nearing]

TEA built their rep w/ the SBF/mustang crowd, I'd be happy to drop some coin on a 5. 9B head if the came out with one!!!

 

[Reb.B]

I'm not sure if you would gain much/any from an aluminum head. I've put down 893 HP with a stock long block and stock head with No porting. The aluminum head will want to warp and crack much more than our cast Iron head and we can already port the stock head more than an exhaust manifold and turbo will flow. The real gain i can see would be for drag racers wanting to lighten up the front end. In the long run i think you would be Less reliable, and make LESS power. Remember, Diesel is Ignited by the HEAT of compression. An Aluminum head will disapate heat much faster and you may loose power, especially in a diesel. I think that a billet chunk of good steel would be the best bet.

 

[Turbo Thom]

Jim... ... ... . That's what I've said from the start. The Cummins engineers know their stuff. The internals in our engine are near perferct. The motor is fantistic for what it's designed. The little 5. 9 has been taken where it didn't want to go. Now it need's a little more engineering to go that step further. That portion is left to us, at least the ones with the money to spend.



. . PrestonL. .

 

[Morse]

I, like a lot of others just feel like an improved cylinder head would have to help us out. As far as cracking or warping, have the dmax heads had any known trouble with it? I try to stay fairly in the loop with them, and can't recall any problems with the cylinder head. I know when they first came out, most expected it. I just can't recall any problems that have actually became a reality.