Competition Would there be any interest in an aluminum cylinder head?

[robertyoke]

how about a head with those rotating valves instead of the reciprocating valves.

think of the rpm and boost you could run with out valve float.

just thinking!

-robert

 

[SpicyJam]

If memory serves me right, I thought there was a aluminum head out on a truck already, just one though..... we were talking about it at IRP and I can not remember how has it bolted on..... someone should chime in if they know.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Just to clear things up Darren and I weren't talking about making 800+ hp on the bottle..... anyone can do that with a single. We were talking about making a grand+ on #2 only with a street truck.



Lets say a good ported head will flow 220-220 cfm at 500 lift and live there, meaning no worries about cracking or being too thin. Now take a head that will flow 400 cfm, put a smaller set of Twins on it that spool excellent on the street..... (I'm thinking PS62 with a Hybrid S400) that would normally make 80 psi of boost, would drop to 45 and burn a heck of allot of fuel because now there not working hard and the air temps will be really low.



So here is one for the gasser records. Take a 632ci Chevy built to the hilt, add two stages of N2O and you will have say 1400 hp. Now take a 330 ci Small Block Ford built to the hilt with a single T100-106, FAST or Motec fuel injection, water to air intercooler and you can make in excess of 1600hp easily. Look at Tim Lynch, he pushes his Mustang at say 2900 lbs to 209 MPH in the high 6's with a Steve Petty built small block using (2) T-88's.



Just some rambling... ... ... . the power is in the head, not the cam, not the Twins. The only way anyone makes the head flow is with pressure.



Jim

 

[Reb.B]

well the power is in the head if it is normally asperated, but when un der pressure its not as important. If you flow the head, and open in up, then you throw on small turbos, your are defeating your purpose. Your head will flow, and the turbos won't. The air can't get in if it can't get out. And thats why twins have a hard time making power when you are using a small turbo in the twins. Also, when you go really big(on the head) i think you will find that it takes more time to spool up. Hey Jim, check out the new Hot Rod. 406 chevy, twin 72 MM turbos, 750 HP on pump gas and 8 psi boost, and 1500 HP on good fuel and 29 psi boost. I thought it looked pretty crazy, i was impressed.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Hey Jim, check out the new Hot Rod. 406 chevy, twin 72 MM turbos, 750 HP on pump gas and 8 psi boost, and 1500 HP on good fuel and 29 psi boost. I thought it looked pretty crazy, i was impressed.



That pretty good for a sorry design of a motor. I'm a Chevy guy by heart but hate the design.



I guess what I was trying to say is there shouldn't a need for big Twins like with with a head that would flow. Meaning my fuel and 100 psi of boost on a head that would flow 400 cfm would make enough power to just kick a rod out. There is just too much restriction in our heads, I know what your say about how pressurizing it will cheat that, but it drives air temps up..... huge.



Jim

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Heat expansion is bad enough on a relatively short 4 cylinder head as used on the V8 Duramax - and obviously gets WORSE on a longer 6 cylinder engine!



On the physically larger 18-wheeler diesels, cylinder heads are often in PAIRS of cylinders instead of a single long warp-prone plank for all cylinders in a single casting...



NO, I would wanna touch a 1-piece aluminum head for my truck at ANY price!

 

[mattymac]

Heat expansion is bad enough on a relatively short 4 cylinder head as used on the V8 Duramax - and obviously gets WORSE on a longer 6 cylinder engine!



On the physically larger 18-wheeler diesels, cylinder heads are often in PAIRS of cylinders instead of a single long warp-prone plank for all cylinders in a single casting...

I havent heard of any head warping problems in the D-Maxs yet, injectors, and rods blowing out the bottom, but no head problems yet related to aluminum warping/cracking issues.



The Series 60's Detroit's have a one piece head on them, they work fine and are also machined on a slight angle to compensate for the flex to sit square on the block while they are torqued down.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I havent heard of any head warping problems in the D-Maxs yet, injectors, and rods blowing out the bottom, but no head problems yet related to aluminum warping/cracking issues.

buddy of mine has cracked two of them

 

[crawler]

Now Forrest, who might that be?



An aluminum cummins head would be great from a drag racing standpoint. Weight loss on the front of the vehicle aiding in weight transfer. As well as the ability to help shed heat. I would like to see it done as a two piece head though. (1 for the front 3 cylinders and 1 for the rear three). Before you start asking about coolant flow with the head being built in two pieces; its an easy fix.



The guys that would be looking at purchasing one of these aren't your towing crowd. These are your all out street/strip guys. Longevity is a relative term in racing. If an aluminum head lasts 1 season of racing (barring that I don't scatter a piston or other part and take it out) then I feel that it has payed for itself.



Aluminum works o. k. for a diesel head. I would honestly prefer an Iron head for longer life however aluminum heads have not been too problematic.



Now, that being said.



I've scattered two heads on my Duramax. One at 6000 miles and another at 18700. One we beliee happened because of a casting flaw (6000 mile head) the other one, well lets just say it wasn't from a flaw and it didn't melt. So, call it what you want.



~Wes~

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

The big difference between the Dura-Max head and the cummins is the amount of headbolts around the cylinder. The Dura-Max head has 5 or 6 head bolts around each cylinder which makes it very tough to lift the head. I would be afraid that the cummins head would be even more prone to blowing out the front of the motor or out the back if it wasn't some sort of steel/iron.



Jim

 

[Forrest Nearing]

The big difference between the Dura-Max head and the cummins is the amount of headbolts around the cylinder. The Dura-Max head has 5 or 6 head bolts around each cylinder which makes it very tough to lift the head. I would be afraid that the cummins head would be even more prone to blowing out the front of the motor or out the back if it wasn't some sort of steel/iron.



Jim

Cummins has 6 per cylinder and of the big three can hold the most boost before lifting a head... we have a number of guys running 60-80+ psi on their street driven trucks...



Ford and Duramax guys freak out if one of them hits 50psi

 

[RacinDuallie]

You guys keep mentioning heat ... ... . Top Fuel Engines see more heat than we do and they ALL run billet Aluminum Cylinder Heads????

For a racing build up- I'd like to have my hands on a Billet Aluminum Cylinder Head for the Cummins..... Oo.


Heck I'll settle for any durable material as long as we have more port to work with, someone needs to step up and get this part of the market started- Aftermarket Cylinder heads for Cummins Engines.

A head that has a port flow in the neighborhood of 340-380cfm for the street/strip guys and a head that would flow well into the 420's + for race only -would be the ticket.....
Base both on the same core and we have a winner!

 

[COMP461]

Cummins has 6 per cylinder and of the big three can hold the most boost before lifting a head... we have a number of guys running 60-80+ psi on their street driven trucks...



Ford and Duramax guys freak out if one of them hits 50psi

The ability to lift the head, as you call it is not related to boost, but to excessive cylinder pressure. The reason a DuraMax will fail at a lower boost pressure, is that a DuraMax head flows significantly more air , this and the fact that it is 10 cid smaller per cylinder allowing it to achieve more cylinder fill . Boost in engines is just a restriction in the intake track, and not something to brag about. Typically if you put a professional ported head and an aggressive cam in any of the high boost engines, you will lose a great deal of boost, but achieve cylinder filling. This is the true and only goal. I have watched this thread, and there are great deals of misconception about aluminum heads porting and cam technology.

Fists, diesel don’t have some magic ability and need special parts , as RD just said, Top Fuel , is so over the top when it come to the abuse and power levels. For that mater a good Top alcohol motor, makes higher peak pressures the fuel. A good aluminum billet head that would flow 350 to 400 cfm of air, would take the 100 lbs of boost a good racing twin set up produces and turn it in to 25 to 30 pounds, with a huge power increase. More air, equals quicker spool, and better tractability.



In addition, who came up with the misconception that a DuraMax was sleeved, wow that is a good one?



Titanium is an outstanding material to work with in areas where you need strength, and heat resistances, with a long fatigue life but it is about $100+ a pound in new billet.

Most high RPM race motor has titanium valves. I have have run titanium valve springs in comp and they were great at keeping seat pressure right up until they break, they are not legal in NHRA now.

 

[Jong]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most ProStock and SuperStock diesel pulling tractors run big billet aluminum heads? I know they are running them in alcohol conversions with some wild fuel systems. If pullers are running them on inline six cylinder Deere engines with up to 4 turbos running 150 psi boost , why couldn't you run them on a Cummins with a lower boost level? Oo. Oo. Oo.

 

[COMP461]

For every one reference the stock intake on a Cummins 12 valve flows around 145 to 155 CFM @ 28 inches on a Super Flow 600

A 24 valve head flows in the neighborhood or 150 to 155 CFM @ 28 inches. Max ported with all the tricks, with out removing the intake and you get 190 to 205 CFM @ 28 inches. This is a 30% increase. Removing the intake, max porting, and installing a ZZ fabricated manifold and you can get around 250 to 260 CFM @ 28 inches. This will drop your boost about 30 % and get more in the intended map of the turbo’s, further enhancing power by delivering a cooler , denser charge.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

yeah, top fuelers run aluminum heads... they also rebuild the engine after every pass...



Greg, my point was that the Cummins has 6 bolts per cylinder and the head stays put better than the Duramax or Powerstroke... cylinder pressure = power... lots of 5. 9's in the 800-1000rwhp range... not many d-max or strokes

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The ability to lift the head, as you call it is not related to boost, but to excessive cylinder pressure. The reason a DuraMax will fail at a lower boost pressure, is that a DuraMax head flows significantly more air , this and the fact that it is 10 cid smaller per cylinder allowing it to achieve more cylinder fill . Boost in engines is just a restriction in the intake track, and not something to brag about. Typically if you put a professional ported head and an aggressive cam in any of the high boost engines, you will lose a great deal of boost, but achieve cylinder filling. This is the true and only goal. I have watched this thread, and there are great deals of misconception about aluminum heads porting and cam technology.

Most of the above it true (perhaps!) only in relation to all-out competition engines. The notion that in a more "perfect world", boost is in ANY way a negative, overlooks the compounding of air mass and effective increase in engine displacement additional cylinder charge mass provides.



The ONLY reason to alter cam profiles in a manner that REDUCES boost pressure by way of added valve overlap, is as a "tool" to more completely purge and scavenge the cylinder and allow more complete filling with fresh air/fuel mixture than might otherwise be possible - but carried to excess, it becomes self-defeating in terms of overall efficiency, especially in lower RPM applications.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

but carried to excess, it becomes self-defeating in terms of overall efficiency, especially in lower RPM applications.

not if you've got the LS1 intake port! :-laf



you make a good point, but we need more cylidner head flow... a clean sheet design will flow much more CFM but will still maintain velocity needed for lower RPM efficiency.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

A new head design can also incorporate that bolt on manifold idea and give the manufacturer an additional product to profit on.



I'll take a head AND a new bolt on intake manifold. 3 to 4 grand for pure comp parts is nothing.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

not if you've got the LS1 intake port!

HEH!



I had one of those - and I gotta tell ya, I want to be standing WAYYYYyyyy back when a competition Cummins hits the same RPM as a well modded LS1! :-laf :-laf