Would you buy a diesel hybrid?

[schu777]

While driving down to the Husker game, my friend and I got into a conversation about the fuel prices just getting quite high. So the conversation steered towards a diesel hybrid. I, for one, would buy one instantly. I think the mileage would be fantastic!



Would you buy one or not?

 

[tp0d]

heh i liked the last one. . I can see it now, salespeople boasting... "NEVER stop to fuel up AGAIN!!" that would be neet. . would have to get an addon valvetrain to make some cummins clack to make me feel at home though. . heh



-j

 

[Brian-NX9O]

The other vehicle is a hybrid. We have had a 2001 Toyota Prius since October 2000. What I really want is a hybrid diesel that will also serve as a generator to power my house or the ham radio mountaintop contest site for my club. We used a 15KW Onan/Cummins this past June. Sweet! Our problem is that we do not have enough tow vehicles. There are 4 tower trailers and 2 enclosed cargo trailers that go to the mountain for most contests. If one of the tow vehicles could also be the generator, we would have it licked. The "little" gas generators (14HP Twin OHV 8. 5KW) just don't cut it after being spoiled by a real generator.



In retrospect, I should probably have bought a 6-spd and installed a PTO generator, but I really like the idea of an integrated hybrid drivertrain plus generator.



Bring on the Dodge/Cummins HEV, please!

Is there a beta tester list?

 

[SandyHelton]

I'll be a beta tester for it!!! We bought a Prius about a year ago - it looks real good next to my truck... I'd love to have another hybrid.

 

[y-knot]

I just read an article where they were talking about the new '05 models and what will be offered. They talked about the power wagon and the diesel hybrid from Dodge. It has a Cummins diesel engine combined with a 40HP electric motor. It uses the electric motor to get going and even stop, this will save fuel and cut down on the diesel emissions, by getting the truck going fast enough so when the diesel takes over the load is less and the engine don't smoke from the low rpm lug. It is also suppose to be able to generate power form it's electric engine. I have not seen enough to know where and how they store the electric, or what it's price might be. The Power Wagon is 36,600. 00 which may or may not be a bargain, depends on your uses. Yes I would conceder a hybrid.

 

[Radshooter]

How would it work for towing a big fiver? Would the weight of all those batteries decrease the towing capacity? What about getting the load rolling from a stop? If they can convince me it will handle my 17k fiver the way my '03 does, I will be extremely interested, because the majority of my driving is without the trailer.



Steve

 

[rbattelle]

What about using diesel-electric power, like a locomotive? Run the engine at a constant RPM (or nearly constant) and just vary the load. I'd buy something like that, but nothing with an electric motor in series with the engine (don't like that idea).



Locomotives are very efficient, but that must not carry over to passenger vehicles or I suppose someone would've made one by now.

 

[michigandon]

What about using diesel-electric power, like a locomotive? Run the engine at a constant RPM (or nearly constant) and just vary the load. I'd buy something like that, but nothing with an electric motor in series with the engine (don't like that idea).



Locomotives are very efficient, but that must not carry over to passenger vehicles or I suppose someone would've made one by now.

I like the idea of that too! Who wouldn't like to have dynamic brakes available when towing a bigazz fifth wheel through the mountains?



I would imagine that diesel-electric propulsion was probably tried in a highway application and discarded many years ago (doesn't work well with too small of a powerplant? ).



They DO manufacture diesel-electric off-road mining trucks, BTW.



Don

 

[rbattelle]

They DO manufacture diesel-electric off-road mining trucks, BTW.



Don

Those very large Komatsu trucks are diesel-electric, aren't they?

 

[bvanetten]

Check out the Tzero at http://www.acpropulsion.com/ I really don'l like the "hybrid" concept that the major car makers have come up with. POS in my opinion. WAY to complicated. It's like they are trying to milk the market until they come out real electric hybrids. With the power generating trailer they made for the tzero it can maintain 75mph as long as it has fuel.

 

[Brian-NX9O]

The tzero is interesting, but I would not be able to load in my wife and three kids into it. I can do that in the Prius. It is cozy, but we can do it.



Has AC Propulsion delivered a production version of the tzero yet? In 2001 they claimed deliveries would start in 2002. I could find no evidence where they claimed to have any delivered. Most of their website is at least one year old with no updates. It is now late into 2004.



I am very curious about their 20KW generator. I have an application that requires about 12-20KW of 120/240 VAC in remote locations that I travel to with my truck. The generator portion of that trailer would be easy to stash in the back of my RAM and would still easily fit in the load capacity while towing my 20' cargo/camper trailer. AC Propulsion has a few pictures of the trailer-generator, but little meat/details or any pricing for it on their website.



With a price "somewhere between a Porsche and a Ferrari" they will be limiting their market quite severely. The tow behind generator is not new. The Wilde Evolutions electric hot rod "Lightning Rod II" used a tow behind generator, but ran it on propane, for extended cruising.



As to hybrid technology being delivered today, I would not call it a "POS". While the Prius has saved me about two maybe three thousand in fuel costs over four years. It was a little bit more expensive to purchase initially than a compairable car. The total costs have been a wash, but I voted for the technology by buying it. It may be more complicated than a regular car, but having two different types of propulsion within the same frame kind of force it to be more complicated. I never have to worry about where I am going to get my next convenient plug in to charge the car. I don't need to plan for the extra distance of a generator trailer behind me.



So a question for bvanetten - What would a "real electric hybrid" look like on a systems basis to make it simpler? Where can someone buy that technology, today? Where are the affordable and practical electric cars that were supposed to be here for all to buy? Many companies have made claims and promises, but only the few offering hybrids today have gotten close to the dreams that we keep getting promised and not delivered.



To bring this note back to the RAM HEV topic - If the HEV/Contractor Special had been available when I bought my truck I would have one. As it is, since the HEV is still some time off, I have had Aura Systems quote me on one of their G8500 systems. I am seriously considering it, but 8500 watts is not quite large enough for my all of what I want to do. I checked with Onan/Cummins, but they do not have a commercial mobile power application for an automatic equipped truck. Does anyone have any other ideas?



Sorry if this was a bit long,

Brian

 

[bvanetten]

“The tzero is interesting, but I would not be able to load in my wife and three kids into it. I can do that in the Prius. It is cozy, but we can do it. ”



I agree, you wouldn’t be able to fit the family. But that’s not what the tzero is all about. It’s a lightweight electric sportscar/toy. What’s interesting about the tzero is the design philosophy behind it.

”Has AC Propulsion delivered a production version of the tzero yet? In 2001 they claimed deliveries would start in 2002. I could find no evidence where they claimed to have any delivered. Most of their website is at least one year old with no updates. It is now late into 2004. ”

“With a price "somewhere between a Porsche and a Ferrari" they will be limiting their market quite severely. The tow behind generator is not new. The Wilde Evolutions electric hot rod "Lightning Rod II" used a tow behind generator, but ran it on propane, for extended cruising. ”



A bit disappointing no doubt, but I really didn’t expect them to produce and sell much. I see AC Propulsion as more of a research facility that might sell a bit of the fruits of it’s labors. It would be a safe bet to say that they are probably getting Gov. grant money or private funding for much of there R&D. Maybe, maybe not.



As to hybrid technology being delivered today, I would not call it a "POS". While the Prius has saved me about two maybe three thousand in fuel costs over four years. It was a little bit more expensive to purchase initially than a compairable car. The total costs have been a wash, but I voted for the technology by buying it. It may be more complicated than a regular car, but having two different types of propulsion within the same frame kind of force it to be more complicated. I never have to worry about where I am going to get my next convenient plug in to charge the car. I don't need to plan for the extra distance of a generator trailer behind me.



Well, ok. Let me clarify my “POS” statement. (I get rather frustrated with this subject at times) I’m sure from a component point of view (and the complete cars being produced) that they aren’t POS’s. Toyota has a long standing history of offering a quality product. But from a design philosophy current hybrids are flawed. It’s like they added complexity for the sake of it, not a good idea in my book. The idea of melding two totally different propulsion systems they way are currently doing it is asking for problems.



”So a question for bvanetten - What would a "real electric hybrid" look like on a systems basis to make it simpler? Where can someone buy that technology, today? Where are the affordable and practical electric cars that were supposed to be here for all to buy? Many companies have made claims and promises, but only the few offering hybrids today have gotten close to the dreams that we keep getting promised and not delivered. ”



I guess we would need to define what a “electric hybrid” is. Is it a vehicle like the prius? Or is it just a marketing term… I don’t know? I can tell you what I would like to see (and what I believe we will eventually end up with)... an all electric car with an internal electric generating system. Not a car with a propulsion identity crisis. No driveline, no transmission, no clutch, none of that mess. Just a dc motor (there is a bunch of different types). I think the tzero’s motor rev’s to 9000 rpm and produces it’s 200 ft lbs from 0 to 9000 rpm, not bad. You could configure it several different ways; no generator with extra battery’s for the short trip commuter, less batteries and a generator for longer traveling and power grid independence… Until the day where we see electric power stations in parking lots all over the place we will need to be grid independent. Where can someone buy that technology? None of this stuff is new, trains have run this way for decades. Every aspect of this type of technology is available right now, albeit not prepackaged in car form and has improved several fold in the last 10 years (except for batteries). All I ask is that a new company steps up to the plate and markets something or that our existing car manufactures stop dragging their feet and sitting on usable, alternative technology patents and market something also.

"Sorry if this was a bit long,

Brian"



Don't be sorry, I like a good discussion.



Bruce

 

[BCobain]

The Tzero is not a Hybrid vehicle, it is just another EV with a better battery and with it's tow along trailer it is close but not quite the real Hybrid that a Prius is. I'm a Toyota Certified MDT with Prius Hybrid Vehicle training. (Proven by my crappy spelling and poor grammer. ) The Prius uses a lower hp engine and 2 motor-generators to convert energy(heat from fuel) to thrust through the driveline and stored energy (battery pack). The direct connection to the road is through Motor generator #2, Engine power can be used to assist mg2 or can be used to charge depending on the rotation of mg1. The prius uses stored energy to assist on heavy load and while crusing uses converted energy to propell it's self. The Engine only assists the bigger #2MG on heavy loads the rest of the time it is a ac generator putting converted energy towards propultion. Hybrids are combining 2 energy sources to assist each other. EVs are only one energy source and the tow behind is just charging the batterys while you drive. Hybrids are a smarter choice because they never have to be charged from an external source.



I did not see the fuel milage from the generator pushed RAVEV was it on that site?



Brian

 

[bvanetten]

Here's a configuration scenario...

Assume that there is a smallish 3-cylinder diesel motor (like what John Deer uses in it's mini-excavator), producing pretty good torque in the 1000 rpm range.



Assume there is an AC (maybe a DC) motor for the rear or front axle to provide power for the vehicle.



Assume there is a batterypack, lets use the TZero format many tiny LiIon batteries.



The end-goal, in my mind, is an EV at heart, a TZero format where the combined battery capacity will generate about 10 miles of range, but still enough Voltage to provide good accelleration and power. That batterpack is regenerated by the diesel motor, turning at a low rpm (aka 1000) but generating SERIOUS torque, which is what a generator needs to crank out the amps.



So the net effect would be that the EV drives for the first few miles, then automatically turns on the motor when the capacity gets lowish, then finishes the trip, and when the vehicle reaches destination the motor goes for a few more minutes then turns off. During accelleration modes or coasting modes for the EV, there is simply a surplus or demand for the energy being pulled from the batterypack.



I'm sure there is more actual complexity behind this, but the idea is simple enough and tried enough that it should be applicable NOW.



Imagine having a load based commonrail 1. x liter diesel generator cranking at it's optimal torque/efficiency rpm, and the fuel economy derived by that formula.

 

[BCobain]

Assume you could get a Vdub diesel to operaterate at a reasonable RPM band like the Atkins cycle prius, then you should have a monster hybrid. You just need the engine to operate at it's most efficent level and you should have the lowest emmisions and best fuel economy. The reason the hybrid works the way it does is to keep the engine efficent.

 

[bvanetten]

One thing that don't understand and don't pretend to have the schooling to understand is how AC Propulsion can get a 500cc atv motor to turn a big enough generator to power a 200 hp electric motor. I bet that atv motor makes about 25 hp. That just doesn't make since.

 

[rbattelle]

Ummm. . someone correct me if I'm wrong, but actually to drive a 200 hp electric motor you'll need a generator power source with a little more than 200 hp (to make up for losses). You can't put in 50 hp and get out 200. If you find a way to do so, you have rewritten physics.



Am I wrong on that?

 

[bvanetten]

"If you find a way to do so, you have rewritten physics. "



Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Doesn't make since to me... alot of things don't make since to me but that is a whole other topic! There's no way they are getting anywhere near 200hp out of a 500cc motor. My stepfather has a hopped up 660 raptor and it's only about 60 hp. What gives?

 

[jwgary]

Don't rewrite physics yet

The electric motor may be 200hp, but how often do you use ALL 200 horses? When you are tooling around town you are probably only using about 20-25 hp to drive at a constant rate. Remember Newton's 1st law, a body in motion tends to stay in motion. Or, a body moving at constant velocity needs NO outside force to keep it moving at that velocity. All the engine needs to do is overcome "road load" for the given speed. You use the full hp to accelerate quickly.



The hybrid can use a smaller engine because it is generating the same amount of power all the time. The batteries make up for the extra power needed during acceleration and are recharged when the engine makes more power than needed (coasting, slow driving, idling etc. )



I have been watching this thread for a while because it intrigues me. I only voted maybe because the way they make hybrids now is not the best in the world. I hope that one day we will go to something like the locomotives use. It's not a new thing at all. Remember the old WWI and WWII submarines always had to surface to recharge their batteries. That's when they would crank up that diesel generator that needed to be at the surface to breathe. Let's keep this discussion alive.

 

[tgbol]

Yes I would. It would be more for the utility of having a generating system whem at the track or camping. But better economy and more power is a bonus.