Would you buy a FASS with TDR member generated dyno numbers?

[Bigsaint]

Next thing you'll tell us is that it will make you breakfast if you leave it in the kitchen overnight Wade .



IMHO, no fuel pump is going to increase your RWHP, unless the one you are currently using causes you to stumble under hard acceleration. Remove the restrictive banjo bolts and provide a positive flow of fuel under any load and you are as good as it's gonna be regarding HP.



Running higher fuel pressure and/or high GPH/GPM pumps does not increase performance, it only adds to the flow of unused return fuel back to the tank in a otherwise properly set up system.



That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it



Scott W.

 

[Bigsaint]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add...



I'd buy a FASS in a second, even if it robbed me of 50 RWHP. As long as it lasted 5+ years.



I'm getting real tired of taking long trips and worrying about the LP going out. I always have a back up with me, but who the heck wants to wrench on the truck in the middle of nowhere.



I guess if that's my only complaint with this truck, and it is, no matter.

 

[dresslered]

I'm going to have to agree with the Saint on this one (again) as I am also a skeptic. The two-year warrantee doesn't mean a whole lot to me either because I can get nearly that out of the stock lift pump which is only $140.



I would gladly pay the $600 if only the reliability claim for this system was met. What makes this pump better than the others? Can you give us a manufacturer or a spec sheet? As far as the added filtration, I am perfectly happy with the stock setup as I stopped getting my fuel out of rusty cans years ago.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

I have been working with this fuel pump which is on the FASS System for about the last 9 years. This pump was designed for the big rigs and before laying it over on its side the pump would usually last about 300 - 500,000 miles. That was with the pump in a vertical position. But at times the pump would only last 60 - 100,000 miles. We got with the motor manufacture and a fuel systems engineer and laid the motor in a horizontal position as directed by the motor manufacture. With the motor in the horizontal position it draws about 20% less amperage and picked up about 2 more psi by changing nothing else. I have had the horizontal design out for about 1 1/2 years on some fleets running about 250,000 miles per year and they are performing excellent. We have not gotten this excellent fuel pump without any black eyes along the way, we made our fair share of mistakes at the beginning. I do not believe anyone can beat the durability of our electric fuel pump!



Brad

 

[WadePatton]

Thanks Brad.



Well fellers there's a stab at how the pump- shes a different. Lays down instead of stands up.



Seems that before changed there was a durability issue (which precipitated the change), and now that it has been changed---well the new and improved hasn't been out long enough for real long-term results.

 

[How'dHeDoThat]

NO ADDED PERFORMANCE????

I don't have the FASS System but I do have the Preporator. I assume they both work about the same... so...



I have to state without much hesitation that it will, in fact, give some added HP.



I installed mine and it ran ALOT differently.



First, it ran quieter.



Second, it smoked less.



Third, it built up boost sooner and faster



Fourth, I dyno'ed at 397-401 at the DFW dyno day and again several weekes later at 400 in Lewisville, Texas. My max rpm was right at 3100 rpms (edge drag box and wire cut)

I dyno'ed after the install (3 days) and I dyno'ed at 421 and 417 in Lewisville.



My numbers aren't as conclusive to me as I have been trying to tune in a set of twins and have been playing with the external wastegate alot. What was conclusive to me was the fact that I all my runs were acheived maxing at 3550 rpms.



I have since pulled out my injectors and put in a set of 200 hp injectors and I notice that they don't pull down the fuel pressure any at all. These are honed injectors and are in until I find some edm's.



Oh and I forgot... I don't have a mystery switch or lock-up controller yet. My DFW Dyno Day runs were from 75 mph to avoid downshifting (sucks)



Since the Preporator I have to run from 82-83 to keep it from downshifting. ( gotta get that lockup)



(high mph because of 355 gears and 36" tires)



James



Ps also I knew I had added some usable power to the truck by the way it ran after the install.



Pss. I don't think anyone is going to get 50 hp out of this system but maybe so... my truck has "other issues" that I am sorting through and may have only responded somewhat.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Wade,



I do not understand where you do not get long term results from what I just wrote. I have fleets that run over 250,000 miles per year per truck that have been using the new design for about 1 1/2 years. On the conservative side that is over 300,000 miles?????



Brad

 

[WadePatton]

Okay, yep that is a lot of miles. How many trucks exactly? But that kind of long-term might not be the same as the hot/cold cycles that a Dodge user would probably put the unit through in the same or fewer number of miles. I've not compiled the research to know if that would matter or not.



I will admit that 300k on a larger engine would convert to many more gallons pumped than on a 5. 9 over the same miles.



If we conclude now that the pump is $450 better than the stock LP, then we can concentrate on the other claimed benefits.



edit: Brad is referring to a post of his in the other FASS thread.

 

[BigDaddy]

Re: FASS Fuel System

Originally posted by Ekstam

I have been working with this fuel pump which is on the FASS System for about the last 9 years. This pump was designed for the big rigs and before laying it over on its side the pump would usually last about 300 - 500,000 miles. That was with the pump in a vertical position. But at times the pump would only last 60 - 100,000 miles. ... I have had the horizontal design out for about 1 1/2 years on some fleets running about 250,000 miles per year and they are performing excellent. We have not gotten this excellent fuel pump without any black eyes along the way, we made our fair share of mistakes at the beginning. I do not believe anyone can beat the durability of our electric fuel pump!



Brad

Brad,



Given your statement, worst-case scenario, the FASS pump should last a minimum of 60K miles. I am not impressed.



Best case, 300k – 500k miles. I would be very impressed.



You mentioned a two-year warranty but, I am yet to see the specifics of that warranty.



Would you post your warranty for the FASS or PM me the information?



TIA



Joe

 

[Murle]

Wade, I don't know what kind of burr has got under your saddle,but I think it is time for you to start comprehending what Brad is saying. It is very clear to me that this FASS is worth more than $450. 00 over the cost of a factory lift pump to me and to a lot of other people. It may not be to you, but who cares.....



If you don't like what Brad is saying then get off of your soap box and let it die.



If this unit only last me 100,000 miles it is worth not having to change the lift pump out 5 times.



I have stated here and so have a lot of other people what benfits they are seeing on their own truck with the FASS. But it seems to me that you are not hearing what we are saying.



Wade, I'm a business owner and I would like to say that if you were to be one of my customers I would have run you out of my store a long time ago. For some reason you are not paying attention.



I learned a long time ago in my business that I could not please everyone. And when I can not please a customer I please myself and ask that customer to go and do business with my competetor. Becasuse they deserve each other. Then I'm able to spend more time with real customers( one's that spend money with me)

 

[BigDaddy]

Re: FASS Fuel System

Originally posted by Ekstam

Wade,



I do not understand where you do not get long term results from what I just wrote. I have fleets that run over 250,000 miles per year per truck that have been using the new design for about 1 1/2 years. On the conservative side that is over 300,000 miles?????



Brad

Brad



How many FASS's does this encompass? 5/10/20/40/80/160... ?



How many FASSs have failed?



How/why did the FASS fail?



Was all the FASS failures cover by the warranty?



Basically, show me the numbers!



Joe

 

[Murle]

Big Daddy, I would guess that the warranty is like any other warranty and I would not expect it to be any different. It is against defects in material and workmanship.



I'm sure that if water gets in the pump and frezzes it is does not have a warranty. I'm sure that if a rock flies up and hits the motor and ruins it, there is no warranty and so on... ... .



This unit is well built and I'm a happy customer.



If this unit was to fail after 6 months and it was my fault I would not ask FASS to replace it. But some people thinks that a warranty means against anything.



In my business we warranty a lot of products and 95% of the items that are brought in are not due to manufacturing problems it is due to misuse, abuse and pure stupity.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Joe,

Now, I do not understand your interpretation of what I wrote about the life of the fuel pump. I will make it more clear, THE OLD DESIGN WOULD SOMETIMES FAIL AT 60 -100,000 MILES. THE NEW DESIGN HAS NOT HAD THIS PROBLEM. We have about 950 units with the horizontal pump out. We have had 1 motor quit on the FASS Fuel System. (Something wrong with if the motor stopped in the wrong position it would not start again). Of course a two year warranty would and did cover the motor.



Wade and Joe, especially Wade. First I want to say thank you because of your questions you have already directed a lot of customers to us and our dealers. So on my behalf and behalf of our dealers thank you.



I do not understand your agenda!! I want to make one thing very clear, when ever I build anything, be it a Dodge Cummins from the frame up (which the TDR issue about 2 years ago) or a fuel system, I build a very high quality product. 2nd, I know how to build performance out of the 5. 9 Cummins as I did when I took my truck, after having it for 10 days, to the frame. The truck, if you have the nerve, will run over 150 mph. It will also get there quickly. Before adding external power mods. The short block had a lot of preparation. The customers that have purchased the FASS have a very high quality product!!



Brad

 

[WadePatton]

h o r s e p o w e r

Originally posted by Ekstam



Wade and Joe, especially Wade. First I want to say thank you because of your questions you have already directed a lot of customers to us and our dealers. So on my behalf and behalf of our dealers thank you.



I do not understand your agenda!!

Brad

And according to the poll, many more would buy IF...



At the risk of being repetitious, I'll say this again. I was NOT interested in the FASS until YOU made some HORSEPOWER CLAIMS. That caught my eye.



Now I (and PLENTY others) am waiting for someone to test the HORSEPOWER claims on a 5. 9 CTD. If I was making, selling, or dealing them--I would have already done this.



I sincerely hope that the FASS does kick the power up there, BUT we'll not know until we see the dyno results.



Without the HP benefit, I'm not interested. My fuel system has been BOMBED to suit me.



Murle, if you've read every post in these three FASS threads, you'd know where I stand and how I got there. That pathetic little POC stock LP in my truck has 40,000 BOMBED miles on it and is going strong. The pump isn't the only problem in the system. The burr is the unbackable, hard-to-believe HP claim. clear enough? All this other stuff is side bidness. Like the pump itself--believe me now and hear me later--we 24v'ers have tried lotso pumps--they all turned out to be electric pumps with the shortcomings thereof. Brad has finally addressed this question, thank you Brad.



ONE MORE TIME (just for clarity) Brad made increased HORSEPOWER claims for two light duty V-8 diesels. The implication there was that the mighty 5. 9 would gain HP as well. Seems to me to be a FANTASTIC selling point in this crowd. SO I kicked up some interest and debate. Good products will survive and prosper in those conditions.



HORSEPOWER- that's it Murle, I didn't claim it, Brad did.



But let us not get any more personal than we have already. PLEASE resort to PM or email or call me on the phone if you have a beef with me and our discussion of the FASS.

 

[Bigsaint]

Interesting information Brad, thanks for posting same. I sure hope it's a solution to our problems, but I'm so tarnished from my past failures I plan on sitting back and just watching for a while.



Now, someone explain to me how in the world this or any other fuel pump is going to increase performance even by one HP on a truck that already has fuel line upgrades, i. e. , no banjos and a free flow of fuel ? It ain't gonna happen guys. If your truck runs fine now and doesn't fall on it's face under heavy WOT runs, you have all the fuel your injectors can squirt IMHO. Adding more FP or volume will only add to the amount of fuel returned to your tank. Please correct me if I am wrong.



I have run pumps with fuel line upgrades and no banjos that put out anywhere from 8-10 psi's at WOT to 25 psi's at WOT. These same pump's volume varied anywhere from 140GPH to 270GPH. With everything else being equal, the results were exactly the same in performance. My truck pulls as hard and makes as much boost with FP @ 8psi's/ 140GPH as it does with FP @ 23-25 psi's and 270GPH. It's also as smooth with either and put's out the same amount of black smoke, which by the way, is much more affected by the ambient temp and humidity rather than FP.



Now, if we are going to compare a trucks RWHP dyno results with different fuel pumps, I sure hope that you are using the same dyno with the same operator and in the same type ambient temp/humidity. To do anything else would be a basis for useless information.



Sidenote, I think it's great you guys have found a new design to try as it's the ONLY WAY we are going to solve this very existant problem. I do have issues with members spending $600. 00 plus dollars on a system that is not proven in our trucks. Until it gets a few years at a minimum of hassle free use in our trucks, I wouldn't be calling it the ultimate fueling system. I will be watching with keen interest and I sincerely hope that it works as advertised.



Scott W.

 

[Hohn]

Bigsaint (note: I didn't feel right about shortening it to B. S. )



I would agree with you fully IF the FASS was simply another fuel pump. All and each of your points are valid with respect to delivery psi and GPH not making a difference in power. I agree fully that pumping a bunch of fuel around is inefficient if the main result is just more fuel returned to the tank.



But the FASS is unique. It's the QUALITY of the fuel delivered, not the quantity that makes this system special.



We have all seen the diesel foam up when we fill the tank. We know how easily air gets trapped in it. There are many common examples of how this trapped air is bad. For example, if you are DYING of thirst, would you rather have a can of root beer or some ice water? Right-- the trapped gas in the root beer keeps it from quenching your thirst as well.



What about when a lubricant contains entrapped air? We saw from BOBISTHEOILGUY's experiements how certain additives can cause foaming of gear lube. The result? Poor lubrication and high temps.



I think we have all left a bottle of water in the car only to return later and find tiny bubbles in the water that makes it look more like Sprite... . Where did these bubbles come from?? They were dissolved in the water!



Air in any liquid is bad in most cases, for reasons that the FASS makers have often mentioned. The worst thing IMHO is that it makes an incompressible liquid partially compressible. This makes for a lot of inefficiency. Some things are designed to work best when incompressible-- hydraulics, lubes, etc. Ever seen an anvil made of memory foam?? Me neither (but if you let it get really cold, it will make a perect anvil. The memory foam pillows and such get rock-hard when they get cold. i mean hard enough to break a window easily



There's a lot more bad stuff that trapped air causes. But I'll leave that for the vendor to discuss. Suffice it to say that the FASS has a lot more going for it than simply being another lift pump alternative... ...



Justin

 

[RAndrae]

stupid

Well I guess my posts are invisible- thats Ok. I would have liked to jumped in a long time ago- wade go home. go to the local bar or coffe shop and argue with some one there.

Its amazing that we all bought a 32000 $$ +++ truck that has a 9. 00 $ dollar Lp that fails. and fails alot, yeah there is the guy that you hear about that gets 40 000 mi without a prob but what about the 9 out of ten that the LP fails at ten, fifteen, or twenty thousand miles. That failure rate is HIGH and we all know what Daimler, dodge crysler what ever DO NOT CARE. They just warranty and put another 9. 00$ Lp or sell us a 120. 00 +++ Lp. Like the service writer at my little local dealer told me "YEAH WE REPLACE A LP ONCE A WEEK". .



Like I said b-4 add it up-- factor in all the labor, headache and inconvienience... . step 1. 120 $ extra Lp under the seat. step 2. 120 ++ and the $$ for moving the lp and lines ect and high flow banjos ... 2- 3 hundred verses $549. 00. The difference between that and the Fass is not that much. I think this may be the fix I have been hearing everyone ask for and now this isnt good enough???? geez you see all the time exaust systems being bought for 400- 700$$ for what mayby 10 hp. or some other several hundred dollar part that has big HP claims that really do nothing. . Now there is a part that may just be the fix who cares if it takes Hp just as long as it lasts longer than 20,000 mi. This is JMO. I expect to have my truck on the DYNO within the week. BTW I am not associated with anyone involved with the FASS system in any way.

 

[Bigsaint]

Awesome post Justin, that's the kind of info I like to read . I have to admit, I never even considered the quality of the fuel being delivered in my bias against the HP issue. Very interesting, I'll be watching the user results more closely now for sure.



Thanks !



Scott W.

 

[Bigsaint]

RAndrae, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I have no intention of slighting anyone for trying anything in an attempt to fix this issue. If the FASS works out, that is fantastic in my book. It would be real nice to close the chapter on the lift pumps once and for all. It's the one weak link in a otherwise superior truck IMHO.



While I still have concerns about any real performance gain obatinable from any pump, Justin just gave me a great education on this particular pump .



I don't know if this has been hashed out before, but I'm curious if this system would allow the VP44 to draw fuel if the pump did die ? Since we know that the single Carter pump does, and I know first hand the a dead Mallory does only to a certain extend ( truck will idle but stumble heavily upon the slightest attempt to accelerate). Same holds true for a dead PE pump, truck will idle with somewhat lower negative pressure(SPA gauge reads negative pressure. When my first Mallory died, the truck was @ idle at -11 psi's, I believe the PE was allowing around -5 psi's at idle) than the Mallory, not driveable at all. Good question for Brad I guess.



Scott W.

 

[Ramafid]

I moved my lift pump ( new pump) to the framerail and it has about 75K miles on it right now. It has lasted quite well for a stock Carter but pressure is dropping. I have lost 3lbs since it was new. Was 14. 5 at idle now only 11. 5. I am pleased that it has lasted this long but seems to be dying over the long run. I don't think Wade is out of line, a claim was made and he just wants some proof to back it up. Wade is after HP, I don't think anyone would be happy if you spent money on something that didn't do what was advertised. I think some people are skeptical too because we all have heard it before that a new electric pump is going to cure our problems only to be let down. Lots of people have spent lots of dollars on pumps and have nothing to show for it. Since the FASS was designed for class 8 trucks I personally don't think poor reliability is an issue. Most commercial truck drivers only get paid when they are moving, not sitting on the side of the road. If the FASS or the PREPORATOR was unreliable they would ( or should ) be out of business by now. Hopefully reliability is not affected in the way we drive our trucks. I more than likely will be buying one of these units in the near future because the stock LP just isn't going to cut it.