Would you buy a FASS with TDR member generated dyno numbers?

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Justin, you did a great job explaining air/vapor being entrained into a liquid. As most of you know most of my 10+ years of experience comes from marketing and troubleshooting the Fuel Preporator. Again, the Fuel Preporator is a good product. I have had the Fuel Preporator on the 2 Dodges I have had. Ever since day one the unit has been on both trucks and never (not once) had any problems. The first trucks had about 160,000 miles on it before I got rid of it and the the 2nd one had about 180,000 miles on it since customizing it from the frame up. I switched over to the FASS in April on the second Dodge (that is when the FASS was introduced). The reason I tell you of the Fuel Preporator pump living so well is that the FASS and Fuel Preporator has the same pump. (Just so you do not think I am stealing someone's idea, I helped design that unit along with other people that designed the unit, mainly a company out of Illinois that makes our fuel filter, CIM-TEK. )



Now discussing air in fuel, Justin you are right. The major of air (there are exceptions) comes from agitation. CIM-TEK had a test done by University of Illinois Engineering Dept on the amount of air in fuel. Here is one of the results: (There are variables to this also)

Their test showed that after 1 1/2 hours of traveling the air displacement in fuel from agitation is equivalent to the vapor being produced by a suction side fuel filter having 11 inches of vacuum!!



That is a lot of air! That is also why a stationary dyno does not show you actual in use horsepower.



There is a by-pass built in the FASS System just in case the pump goes out, but I do not know if the VP44 could draw thru it. I know the 12 Valve mechanical and the semi pumps can.



I do not mind people being skeptical, as I am skeptical but I also approach with an open mind! I think being skeptical is health to a point! But some of these comments are beyond skeptical.



Brad

 

[Murle]

Brad, I'm sure you are getting tired of repeating yourself... LOL. Just wanted to let the readers here know that this morning it was 27 degrees here in Texas . Now I know that is not cold for some of you guys in the north... . But this morning the truck was not plugged in and I decided to just turn the key and start without letting the wait to start light to cycle.



Turned the key and she started with one rev. of the engine. No smoke. This truck has never done this with the old lift pumps.



She fired up just like it was a 100 degrees out side. She was smooth with no banging or nocking.



Come on and chime in Wade... . Brad needs to sell more of these FASS.



Also I have seen a 1. 2 mpg increase in fuel mileage since adding the FASS. Now that may no seem much,but anything is a improvement.

 

[Hohn]

If I may, I would like to elaborate on my earlier post.



It's worth considering something that's simple but not obvious: everywhere that air is, fuel isn't. That's why the root beer won't quench your thirst, why the foamed up oil won't lubricate, etc.



We all are aware of the dangers of cavitation in cooling systems, and how the Fords need special coolant as a result. What is cavitation? It's when dissolved/trapped gases in a liquid are violently released because of a drastic drop in pressure.



Let me back up a little bit. There is a difference between air that is ENTRAPPED in a liquid and air that is DISSOLVED in a liquid. Air that's DISSOLVED literally has no vapor to it-- it's literally all liquid. Like when you dissolve salt in water until you can't see the salt anymore. You don't have little crystals in there, they've actually dissolved and become part of the liquid.



But if you keep adding salt (or sugar) you will reach a point where no more will dissolve, and the crystals will simply be trapped.



While these two scenarios (dissolved vs entrapped) are different, they end up playing out about the same way. Most importantly, dissolved gas can easily become entrapped gas.



When you open a Coke, the CO2 that was dissolved in the solution, comes out of solution because the pressure isn't high enough to keep it in solution. So you end up with little bubbles in your Coke... ENTRAPPED bubbles.



Pressure is an important variable in determining how much gas will dissolve in a liquid. That's why your Coke is under pressure when bottled, and why it goes flat. If you could re-pressurize the Coke, it would resist going flat much longer because the CO2 would stay dissolved.



Now we can see how cavitation happens. Picture a boat propeller. As the prop blades slice through the water, there is an area of HIGH pressure in front of the blade (which produces the thrust) but there is also an area of very LOW pressure immediately behind the blade! Because the water in this area is under much less pressure, the gases dissolved in the water will be released, sometimes violently so. This is what cavitation is-- the release due to a sudden pressure drop of the gases dissolved in a liquid. That's partly why the paint wears off the propeller so fast-- the cavitation of the water makes it like running through sandpaper.



Cavitation is also very hard on pumps-- especially water pumps in cooling systems.



But the pumps in a fuel system aren't much different. They like to have all liquid with no gases. Ever wonder WHY it is exactly that "electric pumps like to push, not pull"? I have heard this in a lot of LP threads, but no one ever explained why. Sure, they say that the pump doesn't like to pull a vacuum. .



But I believe that part of the REAL reason that fuel pumps don't like to pull a vacuum is because the lower pressure causes dissolved gases to come out, JUST LIKE WHEN YOU OPEN THE COKE. It's because the pressure is lower than the pressure that kept the gases dissolved, so they are released! Thus, the pump ends up trying to to pump a foam (relatively) instead of a liquid.



Now imagine for a second that you aren't pumping FUEL through your system, but fuel with the consistency of root beer instead. How much lubrication is there now? How hard is the pump having to work? How hot will it run (plastic parts)?



This why I believe the FASS WILL improve performance, if indeed it can remove entrapped air.



Moreover, i would expect:

1. more accurate fuel injection. The compressibility of fuel/air mix delays injection because it slows the rate that pressure builds towards popoff.

2. Better fuel atomization. With the air out, the spray should be much better. Think about an aerosol can as it's almost used up. When it starts to cough and spit, is the spray pattern better or worse than when it's new? MUCH WORSE.

3. Better VP44 lubrication. Removing the air increases the lubricity of the fuel a great deal. Remember, where air is, fuel isn't.

4. Better cooling of anything that the fuel hits. Removing the trapped air increases the "wetting" ability of any liquid, so the heat transfer efficiency goes way up.



To me, the CONCEPT of air removal being beneficial is easy. There are a million things that are better off with the air removed. The only sticking point to me is HOW the air is removed. Anything over 90% removal would truly be exceptional efficiency.



The FASS is not a gimmick like the Tornado fuel saver, the little magnets or whatever J. C. Whitney crap you want to compare with. It's based on solid research and if the motor portion proves to be reliable in CTD apps is it has in other applications, then this FASS should be a real winner.



Brad, I first saw a FASS at A&M diesel in Macon GA. Allen was trying to rig it up to his Dodge. He was really tickled about seeing what it would do.



If anyone wants firsthand testing, call Allen at A&M diesel in Macon (see their TDR ad). I don't know if anyone has had one on a Dodge diesel longer. He was toying with this way back in March.



Justin

 

[Murle]

WOW!!!! Great post Justin. What you say makes a lot of sense!!!



Now I would recommend everone reread Justin's post a least 3 times.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Justin,

You did a much better job explaining than what I did. I think my job might be in jeopardy!!



Brad

 

[Hohn]

I just wanted to be clear on a couple points;



-- i am in now way affilitated with the FASS vendor and don't see a dime.

-- I am defending the CONCEPT behind the FASS, not necessarily the unit itself. Having a plan and executing it are two different things.

-- The decision to purchase a FASS unit (or not) is up to each individual. I can only vouch for the concept. I cannot vouch for HP gains, the reliability of the pump, or whether the FASS unit is worth the asking price. These are the things that each buyer will have to determine for himself. Yes, there's some amount of faith involved. Nothing in life is certain-- not even tomorrow. I know we all thought HVAC would be around forever, breaking 11s in no time.



As they say, you spends you money, you takes you chances... (they poor grammar is part of the saying)



Justin

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Brad, I hear Wade saying you claimed HP gains on some light duty diesels... ..... so , tell me what kind of gains should we expect on our Cummins?



Although I am not installing this FASS for HP, I am installing it for reliability. I have already lost pressure since I got my fuel pressure gauges installed 3 months ago. My Lift pump is on its way out. (28,000 miles)



So, Brad, its already bought, and will be installed in a few days.

With that said..... just for my own curiosity, I am going to redyno the truck. The only reason I am going to dyno it is because I want to see for myself, what, if any, claims you have are true or not.





BigDaddy asked where are the Dyno sheets? DO you have them? Post them?



Wade wants HORSEPOWER... ... ..... I agree with Wades agenda, as he wants to see the proof on the paper, because he is only interested in the HORSEPOWER. I would not shell out the bucks either if you don't provide the proof from dyno's. It would make great business sense to get some numbers out to the members here who are interested in the numbers.



I too am like RAndre, I am going to dyno my truck after the install. I also have no other affiliation with any FASS people either but does kinda make me mad that someone in the business wont provide the numbers for the serious BOMBER'S out there. My main concern is that it works and if a pump goes out on the system, can I get the parts ( while on vacation ) to get it fixed. That concerns me. Will I have to wait for a week some where in another state while waiting for a pump from you or if I am lucky enough to find a dealer that would help out. This is my biggest concern.



I hope it turns up the numbers, but if it doesn't, I don't care... ... all I want is RELIABILTY. But don't worry, I will post my before and after dyno numbers. By the way, Dyno is scheduled for the 20th this month, so well know before X-mas.



Don

 

[dsherman]

What is the psi that the fass system have.

My oem LP runs 16 at idle and at 70 mpr its down to 12 psi. And when your foots in it, it will pull down to about 9 psi. Any difference with the Fass??

Thank you

David

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

I am going to try to answer some of your questions.



First David, with the proper voltage to the fuel pump on the FASS unit we send it out with about 12 psi. I doubt you will see a drop of over 1 psi, if any, when you stand in it. The pressure is adjustable. After you install and if you want more pressure just give me a call. Our number is in the paper work.



Don, I do thank you for your business. Regarding the horsepower increases. I believe an increase of about 35 more horses in a conservative figure. That does not come from sitting on a stationary dyno, that comes from our customers experiencing an increase of manifold pressure of 2 - 5 psi. I do not expect to see a large increase on a stationary dyno. We discussed the major sources of air previously and sitting still on a dyno is not an accurate measurement for a product that removes air. Now performing a dyno in the REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT is what I am looking to do and will be done!



An example of where the FASS will not show any increase, (if any is shown it would be small). Lets take the Cummins test cell. The engine is at ground level, the fuel tank is on top of the building. The fuel tank is stationary. VERY LITTLE AIR IF ANY AND A NET POSITIVE SUCTION HEAD IS PROVIDED TO THE ENGINE TO ELIMINATE CAVITATION. We will not show an increase because that is what we are duplicating in the WORKING ENVIRONMENT.



We will have dyno numbers out, I am looking at the G-Tech dyno as that product can actually give us WORKING ENVIRONMENT changes.



The part that I have a problem with is you kinda getting mad. For little over a month I have had to spend the majority of the day in a continuous motion machine because I just had major surgery performed on my knee. It kinda makes it hard to operate efficiently. When I get in the up-right position my knee swells and really hurts. We have a list of priorities and the dyno's are in that list. I ask you to be patient if you are wanting dyno numbers. If it is dyno numbers you need before you decide, then wait. No one is pushing you to purchase.



Thank you



Brad

 

[WadePatton]

Brad, would you kindly reply to the PM I sent you.



Thanks,



WP

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel Sytem

Hello Wade,



Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a PM? Then I can reply



Brad

 

[WadePatton]

notes on the TDR website.

It's a form of email, but it is done on the TDR system. See the little "pm" button down there?



If you'll go to the bottom of the main page, there should be a note saying that you have a Private Message.



If you go to your "user control panel" you can set it so that you get email notifications of PM's just like "subscribed threads". You can also get real time pop-ups for new PM's.



HTH.

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Hey Wade,



I just tried sending a PM but your mail box is full. It is 11:00am Sunday and I am in the office. Call me on our toll free # at 866-769-3747.



Brad

 

[Hammer]

There has already been a FASS system on a DynoJet but with the other mods he made before Fall Brawl we could not conclusively determine if it made any HP gains. That truck was Proram's twin turbo ride. I will say this it does run alot smooter and the idle has really quieted down and it cackles less.



I also stumbled across a article this week by Bruce Mallison of Diesel Injection of Pittsburghin "Movin Out",one of the trucking trade papers you can get at most any truck stop. He talks in there about radiators and exhaust flow a bit and recommends a FASS system for those want to upgrade their largers diesels performance.



I am hoping to be on hand with Don when he rips the jet again. It will be very interesting to see what difference it makes. The "Humbler" will tell all and we will see if any gains are produced in HP. I am not sure how much more "real world" you can get than a back to back controlled environment for testing. So we will let the numbers speak for themselves... ... ... . Andy

 

[Dieselrod]

TDR discount

Well this is getting to be a long thread. So I will ask the question.

Is there going to be a discount? or not?

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Brad, I do have one last question for you about your system. With this truck being a daily driver, and for as cold as it is here in PA, there will be a lot of grid heater cycles being put on this system. Is there any problem with your system handling that?



There is a voltage draw when the heater grid cycles, as it goes from 7 to 14 on the gauge, this also has an affect on the current given to the pump, until the truck is sufficiently warmed up. Are you aware of this and is there going to be any problems with longevity of the pump due to these cycles? Thanks Don



PS. Sorry but my work schedule this week does not give me time to return your calls this week. I'll try next week. Thanks

 

[David_VT]

Ekstam

My 99 ram is a daily driver in rural vermont. The truck lives most of it's life on rough dirt roads with extremes of weather, salt, dirt, etc. I've found salt up inside the tail light assembly.



I've dragged my feet on moving the LP as the frame rail solutions I've seen all seem too exposed for my environment.



So, what about the FASS will make it a safe bet for this dirty & vibration filled environment?



thx

 

[LowFly]

FASS Fuel System

Having low voltage to the FASS pump will not decrease the life of the pump. I had gotten with the motor manufacturer several months ago about low voltage, they said it will not hurt the pump the only thing it will do is slow the pump down.



Salt and road grim will not mess with this unit. Everything is consealed and even the wire connections use Deutz connectors.





Brad

 

[dresslered]

I have just re-read every post on the FASS system for a second time and I still haven't seen an explanation as to why it's own fuel pump is claimed to be so much more reliable than the other's that have already been tried? Is it somehow operating in this cleansed fuel which gives it these special healing powers?



Like I said earlier, I would buy one in an instant if the reliability numbers were there.

 

[RAndrae]

fassed on the dyno

Like I posted ealier I was going to dyno my truck with the fass system but I decided not to. I originaly bought the Fass sys due to the prob we all have had or will have with the stock LP. I never intended to dyno my truck but then got caught up in the sqabbling about HP and said I would.

I decided not to because like I said b-4 I have been around hot rod boats and other high HP toys and have had mega motors, a 4 year old girl could clearly see the FASS system on the work bench and know that it will last longer than the stock LP.

So in closing I am going to save the 100 bucks and the day it would have taken to dyno my truck and drive my SMOOTHER IDLING, 2# MORE BOOST, STARTS BETTER, FASTER ACCELERATING, (MORE POWER??) TO THE LAKE AND GO FISHING.