synthetic oil suggestions

[pwr2tow]

Originally Posted by pwr2tow
It's additives that keep the engine clean. Rubish about engine deposits, That's old school from days long ago when additives were not used.

He has it partialy correct. Petrolium oils do use detergent additives, but a "True" synthetic that uses a GROUP IV or V base does not, as those base stocks have a Natural detergency.

And as far as deposits go, do you know that Toyota just lost a "Class Action" lawsuit because of sludge buildup in some of their Engines.

Wayne

So your saying Amsoil does not use detergency additives in their Engine oil? Or any synthetic oil manufacturer? Your statement leads people to beleave that.

 

[amsoilman]

So your saying Amsoil does not use detergency additives in their Engine oil? Or any synthetic oil manufacturer? Your statement leads people to beleave that.

Yes, I am saying that Amsoil does not use detergent additives with their High teir oils, as they use a (PAO) Polyalphaolefin base, which is a very good detergent. Other advantages of a PAO base are Excellant (VI) Viscosity Index, Excellent Pour Point, Excellent Thermal/Oxydation Stability.



Oils that use Group III base (hydrocracked) would certainly use a detergent additive. They are lower in cost to produce, have good additive stability/solubilty. Oxidation stability and Vscosity Index not as high as PAO.



And yes, I know all about the 1999 Lawsuit against Castrol by Mobil1, and since the Lawsuit, Mobil1 has gone to the same Group III Base stock!



Heres a link to the class action lawsuit.



http://www.topix.net/forum/city/torrance-ca/T8GOHGORMUNJN7II5



Respecfully,



Wayne

 

[MZahn]

I am an amsoil dealer (and never push it on others than family and friends) and just changed the crankcase to rotella t because I needed to do the oil change last weekend and couldn't get to the distribution center soon enough. I will switch back to my choice of amsoil very soon. Not because I am a dealer, but because the engine started to sound noisey and it feels like it has a slight lag. Has any one else used synthetic and changed to conventional for ashort time? Any danger in this ?

 

[skorski]

I just dumped the amsoil after 12,000 mile trip South. Sent a sample in for testing. And will post the results. I switched back to Shell Rotella. Because I probably will only keep the vehicle for 10 years and these engens will run that long on peanut oil. It cost me $120. 00 to change to amsoil with a Donaldson filter and $35. 00 for shell and a fleetguard filter 2 micron. I did that on my 95 and put 235k on with no problems and no oil consumed every 5 k. Besides that if I have to change the filter every 5 or 6 thousand at $30. 00 a wack and add a $ 7. 00 qt of oil I get just as dirty and mite as well just change the oil . At least this way I know the oil will be ok for 5,000 miles. With amsoil It is recomended I send in an oil sample to see where I stand. And add another $22. 00 to find out . If amsoil is so good why are people having the oil tested at 7500 miles . Ill settle for piece of mind every 5K Thanks Ski

 

[pwr2tow]

Yes, I am saying that Amsoil does not use detergent additives with their High teir oils, as they use a (PAO) Polyalphaolefin base, which is a very good detergent. Other advantages of a PAO base are Excellant (VI) Viscosity Index, Excellent Pour Point, Excellent Thermal/Oxydation Stability.

Oils that use Group III base (hydrocracked) would certainly use a detergent additive. They are lower in cost to produce, have good additive stability/solubilty. Oxidation stability and Vscosity Index not as high as PAO.

And yes, I know all about the 1999 Lawsuit against Castrol by Mobil1, and since the Lawsuit, Mobil1 has gone to the same Group III Base stock!

Heres a link to the class action lawsuit.

http://www.topix.net/forum/city/torrance-ca/T8GOHGORMUNJN7II5

Respecfully,

Wayne

Just received my Amsoil Action News magazine in the mail today. Here's a quote straight from Amsoil on their synthetic 15w-40 Heavy Duty Diesel oil, (Quote) High levels of detergency and dispersancy additives control soot thickening, oxidation and wear. Protects against bore polishing, deposit formation and ring sticking. Provides clean engine performance. (Unquote).

You also make a statement about mobil using group III base stock. Mobil makes the same claim as you and amsoil about their product is fully synthetic. You elude that only group III oils need detergents. You say Amsoil doesn't use detergents because they use PAO synthetics and because of the use of PAO there is no need for detergents. Yet in Amsoils literature it states clearly Amsoil uses Detergents.

It's shady claims like yours and Amsoil that make me go HUMMMMMM.

I don't buy your claims or any oil companies snake oil claims. I say snake oil because the more I research, read, ask questions, the more holes appear in any companies claims of superior performance.

If people want clear informed unbiased information the closest I have read is right in this websites TDR magazine.

For you people who are just visiting this website do yourselves a favor and subscribe to the TDR. Their magazine has some of the best highly technical articles in it without biased opinions. It's there for the readers who want true information about their vehicles. This website has some great information and the real chance to share ideas but some times the fine line between advertising by members and reality can be hard to distingush.

These are my humble opinions and feelings, sorry if I some times sound off but I feel these are the truths and they need to be said for everyones benefits. Take it or leave it, that's just me.

I'am not affiliated with the TDR in any way, shape, or form other than a paying member.

 

[pwr2tow]

I am an amsoil dealer (and never push it on others than family and friends) and just changed the crankcase to rotella t because I needed to do the oil change last weekend and couldn't get to the distribution center soon enough. I will switch back to my choice of amsoil very soon. Not because I am a dealer, but because the engine started to sound noisey and it feels like it has a slight lag. Has any one else used synthetic and changed to conventional for ashort time? Any danger in this ?

The sound difference your hearing between different oils is just what your perception in your mind is telling you what it should sound like. In reality you would need some high tech equipement to distinquish if there is or not any difference.

In my previous 99 dodge cummins I switched back between synthetics of all brands (Amsoil, Redline, Mobil 1) and regular oils of all brands (Mobil, Rotella T, Pennzoil, Castrol, Wal-Mart Super Tech) without any harm. No oil consumption, idle differences, MPG increases or decreases, Hp increases or any noticable unacceptable problems.

I also used all the synthetic name brands I mentioned above in all the drive line components without any noticable differences in MPG increase or decrease, Hp increase or decrease or any unacceptable problems.

The only thing I noticed was my wallet getting liter.

The only improvement I saw was better oil flow in severe cold climates. When I say severe cold climates I'am referring to minus zero temperatures for days on end. Even at zero and higher temperatures it was hard to distingush the difference between synthetic and regular oils. It was the few times I had to start my 99 in -30*F after sitting for 10 hours outside not plugged in that made me perfer synthetic over regular oils for cold climates. Just a side note, I've gone many winters here with just 15-40 regular oils. This past winter with my 06 is just one of many I have done. Remember, people have gone through cold winters many years with plan old regular 15-40 oils and have put on hundreds of thousands of miles without any engine problems. After all, that's the only oil weights we had at one time.

 

[amsoilman]

I just dumped the amsoil after 12,000 mile trip South. Sent a sample in for testing. And will post the results. I switched back to Shell Rotella. Because I probably will only keep the vehicle for 10 years and these engens will run that long on peanut oil. It cost me $120. 00 to change to amsoil with a Donaldson filter and $35. 00 for shell and a fleetguard filter 2 micron. I did that on my 95 and put 235k on with no problems and no oil consumed every 5 k. Besides that if I have to change the filter every 5 or 6 thousand at $30. 00 a wack and add a $ 7. 00 qt of oil I get just as dirty and mite as well just change the oil . At least this way I know the oil will be ok for 5,000 miles. With amsoil It is recomended I send in an oil sample to see where I stand. And add another $22. 00 to find out . If amsoil is so good why are people having the oil tested at 7500 miles . Ill settle for piece of mind every 5K Thanks Ski

I don't know where you are getting your information, but I feel you need to know some facts!

I don't know if you were kidding about the first thing mentioned, but I will address it anyway.



1-Peanut oil will not function as a motor oil!.



2-You must have paid full retail for the oil and Donaldson filter to add up to $120. 00.



3-You didn't mention a "By-pass" filter, but there is NO "FULL-FLOW" oil filter on the market that will filter down to 2 MICRONS! That would be too restrictive, and oil would not pass through it fast enough to supply enough oil for proper operation.



4-Amsoil's recommendation on filter changes, is 25,000 miles/one year, if using Amsoil oils. This is in "NORMAL" service, defined as-Personal transportaion vehicles frequently traveling greater than 10 miles at a time and NOT operating under "SEVERE" conditions.



5- Amsoil's recommendation for Oil and filter is 15,000 miles/one year if used in SEVERE" service (For Diesel) defined as-Extensive engine idling, daily short trip driving less than 10 miles, frequent towing, plowing, hauling or dusty conditions.



6- Amsoil only recommends "OILl ANALYSIS" if you are going to go beyond what their recommendations are. Most people who do oil analysis, do so because they either are going longer distances betwenn oil changes, or have a "By-Pass" oil filtering system which allows for the longer drains.



Here is a link that will show you what the Amsoil's recommendations are, as far as drain intervals are concerned.



http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1490.pdf



Best regards,





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Tyler1]

AMSOIL is 100% . I have been running it for years and swear by it... ... ... as far as HP gains my experiance has been that the more torque the engine has to begin with the less you "feel" from the oil upgrade. throw smoe 0w-40 in a 2. 0 Jetta and you mite feel a differance

 

[SKargo]

The person that started this "Thread" was asking questions about Synthetic oils! We need to FOCUS on this.



Now if you want to know more about oils and additives, BOTH Petrolium and Synthetic, check this out! There are many links in this page that will give you lots of info!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil







Wayne

It says Amsoil should never be used in that article! :-laf

 

[AKaiser]

And yes, I know all about the 1999 Lawsuit against Castrol by Mobil1, and since the Lawsuit, Mobil1 has gone to the same Group III Base stock!



Heres a link to the class action lawsuit.



http://www.topix.net/forum/city/torrance-ca/T8GOHGORMUNJN7II5



Respecfully,



Wayne

Wayne, I'm confused. All I found here was a topix thread about Toyota engine failures and sludge buildup problems. Most of it was invective bullcrap that I don't even see on topix here in Indy, and I thought some of our local topix posters were over-the-top. :-laf

 

[MZahn]

As far as wikipedia is as accurate, I changed the page on my father-in-law's home town saying that he fouded it in 1869 and in now the mayor... ... .

 

[MZahn]

Also, the wikipedia page now says Amsoil should ALWAYS be used.....

 

[JHardwick]

Well, Here is "PART" of an SAE paper SAE Technical Paper 952553, that was written in 1995.

Wayne

12 years is a looooong time when it comes to lubrication.

 

[J.BURCHFIELD]

Can't go wrong with Mobile One. I like 5w40 (turbo diesel) for my diesel. Used 15w50 in my motorcycles for years and 10w30 in my wifes Subaru. Amsoil could be better but is hard to find here in FL. I don't want to pay shipping charges.

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, I'm confused. All I found here was a topix thread about Toyota engine failures and sludge buildup problems. Most of it was invective bullcrap that I don't even see on topix here in Indy, and I thought some of our local topix posters were over-the-top. :-laf

The "Link" was put in to show there are engines out there that have sludge build-up due to design. Originally Posted in Post #34 by pwr2tow, where he said. "It's additives that keep the engine clean. Rubish about engine deposits, That's old school from days long ago when additives were not used. "



Wayne

 

[brods]

12 years is a looooong time when it comes to lubrication.

You noticed that too!

... . Change the oil filter every 6 months add back the quart or so of fresh oil and let the next owner worry about it. :-laf

NO! In the 1980s I got a car where the guy ran it over 100K and never changed the oil, just added the cheapest dino when needed. He changed the oil filter only once! I assume the filter got so dirty it became the first bypass filter:-laf I pulled the motor apart and was amazed at how clean and how little visiable wear there was!



Remember the days when the manufacturers said to change the oil filter at every other oil change?

Having put nearly 100,000 miles on a 99 Ram gasser, ran oil analysis on it on a regular basis, I am a believer in Amsoil with bypass oil filtration and extended drain intervals. That's my plan for this truck. I put probably 25-35,000 miles/year and it's just a daily driver.

Every gasser today will go 100k with dino and normal oil changes. Put a bypass on dino and you can extend the oil change interval as well.



I think we can all agree, synthetics do have some advantages over dino. The question is: what is the actual dollar value savings, if any, using synthetics? Considering all the time and $$$$ people spend on extra filters and other doo-dads meant to increase the already long engine life (so long that with no enhancements the engine should easily outlast the truck its mounted in anyway), synthetics may be a relatively cheap risk free way for some people to get piece of mind.



Since synthetics have been around quite awhile and I have yet to see a complete spreadsheet quantifying the long term savings, I have to believe the economic advantage of synthetics is either minimal or non existent. Wayne, can you produce such a document for our trucks?

 

[amsoilman]

You noticed that too!



NO! In the 1980s I got a car where the guy ran it over 100K and never changed the oil, just added the cheapest dino when needed. He changed the oil filter only once! I assume the filter got so dirty it became the first bypass filter:-laf I pulled the motor apart and was amazed at how clean and how little visiable wear there was!



Remember the days when the manufacturers said to change the oil filter at every other oil change?



Every gasser today will go 100k with dino and normal oil changes. Put a bypass on dino and you can extend the oil change interval as well.



I think we can all agree, synthetics do have some advantages over dino. The question is: what is the actual dollar value savings, if any, using synthetics? Considering all the time and $$$$ people spend on extra filters and other doo-dads meant to increase the already long engine life (so long that with no enhancements the engine should easily outlast the truck its mounted in anyway), synthetics may be a relatively cheap risk free way for some people to get piece of mind.



Since synthetics have been around quite awhile and I have yet to see a complete spreadsheet quantifying the long term savings, I have to believe the economic advantage of synthetics is either minimal or non existent. Wayne, can you produce such a document for our trucks?

Since you asked me a specific question, I will give you my scenario on my last 94' Dodge:



100,000 Miles traveled. Based on oil capacity of 11 Quarts.

By-pass oil system = $159. 00

3 By-pass spin-on filters = $84. 00

10 Analysis @ $10. 50 = $105. 00

3 Full Flow Filters = $50. 70

3 Gal @ $18. 20 = $54. 60

12 Quarts Make up oil = $55. 20



COSTS = $508. 50





Normal oil change interval 4,000 miles:



Conventional Oil:



25 Changes X 11 = 275 Qts. /68. 7 Gals. .



25 Oil Filters = 25 filters.



Depending on the brand of oil would determine the COSTS for the entire 100,000 miles. You can figure out your costs. REMEMBER, the prices I have quoted were several years ago!



However, in my case I did oil analysis, which most people do not do using regular drain intervals. The Oil analysis shows the internal condition of the Engine, as well as any contaminants, such as fuel, water, glycol, acids, or dirt that may be in the oil.

 

[JHardwick]

Based on todays prices, I figure it would cost me $775. 00 to run 100,000 miles your way ... ... ... ..... and $385. 00 to run 100,000 miles my way.



I run Rotella and do a sample every 2-3 changes. I run ~15,000 miles per oil change. A 4,000 mile oil change interval is throwing money down the drain.

 

[brods]

Wayne, thanks for the info. I’ll limit myself to one question: If you substituted dino for the synthetic and did everything else the same on your 94, what would have been the end result?



What we need is a head to head comparison with all things being equal, except which oil was used. Then compare costs, engine wear, fuel consumption, and anything else the synthetic oil manufacturers claim as an advantage over dino.

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, thanks for the info. I’ll limit myself to one question: If you substituted dino for the synthetic and did everything else the same on your 94, what would have been the end result?

I really couldn't say, but in the 25 plus years I have been involved with Synthetics, I have read many articles and been through several training courses on oils and filters, and the dino oils do not hold up as long as a "PAO" based Synthetic. When dino oil gets above 230 F. for very long, it begins to break down very rapidly.

What we need is a head to head comparison with all things being equal, except which oil was used. Then compare costs, engine wear, fuel consumption, and anything else the synthetic oil manufacturers claim as an advantage over dino.

This has been done in large fleets, and the Synthetics prevail. The BIG savings for large fleets is due to less down time, as well as product cost.





Wayne