i want to learn to weld...

[DJW]

DValentine, not really being into steam, but at one time I was unaware of 'Wet' and 'Dry' steam thought steam was,---yes--- just steam, with no fancy grade. I believe (just simple layman's knowledge) when superheated, which I was informed of when the steam after leaving boiler was passed back through tubes, and allowed to gain a higher temperature became dry, so when introduced into the engine, engine wearing parts had to be lubricated, as 'wet' steam provided it's own lubrication. That obviously is just a grass roots explanation, to simplify the difference, I was told that by a ship's engineer. Did not have personal knowledge of it, but I read that in Britain some steam power stations producing electricity,being closed systems, the steam was condensed for recovery by piping it to apartments and housing for heating, thus creating a second source of revenue. Also when industrial Hydraulics was made practical, it was sited in a central plant and piped to various industries.
Yes of welding inspectors, I've seen some real odd balls. There was one in particular a real xxx-hole, on making up steel connections for wooden members of a building all 100% penetration welds, he objected to the oxy-acy veeing and wanted them all ground smooth. The place was not very experienced regarding usual engineering methods, so I got into the act, although I was doing the welding and not preparation. I suggested to tack the back side of the connecting member, and Air-Arc without pre-preparation the joint, weld, then back air arc for a 100 % penetration, thus eliminating the veeing and grinding. On the mention of Air-Arc the inspector jumped back about 4 feet, as the plant a small one in the country he though they were all a bunch of Hicks. Granted I had greater knowledge than the rest, but when I go the work I give 100% to the employer, and if I can cut down work, time and material and satisfy the requirements I'll do it, otherwise I feel it's time to quit. I also pointed out that by air-arcing the parent metal was being readied for the weld metal (clean metal) plus the connection, so was not introducing any contamination into the joint. (use BIG Words works every time) He also felt good being able to authorize it, also felt he himself suggested it. Be Firm and Nice, works wonders. Another underhanded (well not really, just for the uncooperative) sentence, start out with, "Well, as YOU Probably Know" that's a real fish lander, firm bite every time, and land it right on deck. Very few people want to appear ignorant even if they are well aware of the subject. I enjoyed my work, (and worth every penny collected) Ho-Boy.

 

[DJW]

GHarman, I worked in northern California since 1956 until retired, 5 years in the central valley the remainder in the San Francisco area, about 15 years general repairs but the bulk structural, then Millwrighting. It was in the structural trade where I found the 90% of welding inspectors pure nut-heads. I am not aware of any requirement to be a welding inspector on structural welding in California, but with schools and earthquake requirements, the test must have had practical knowledge of the trade and welding. On one job welding re-bar on a tilt-up concrete building, the welding inspector witnessing my welds and procedure, the inspector was a 17 year old high school boy, on a Summer job, who told me he was a concrete inspector, and had no knowledge whatsoever of welding, but they were short handed of welding inspectors, so sent him. I had no trouble with him having no knowledge, as regardless whoever was inspecting I just done my work as usual. They could always come back and sonic test the welds, the trade in general is padded with incompetents. I can only speak as I found it, in the Millwright I never had any real trouble with welding inspectors, on one job the inspector said he would not accept papers over 3 months old, so I went to a friend of mine and had my papers updated, it was on a Sunday, he said how about a school and a large public building, he certified it and dated it that day, the inspector read them the next day Monday and accepted them, the ignorant clown only read the year and being February of that year signed them. Welding inspectors to me would be like a certified over the road driver having an inspector sitting next to him while driving. Even if not stamped, certified welding carries the social security number of the welder who performed the work, what else do they need? Today and has been for years, sonic testing can be carried out without costly preparation, used for many applications even thickness and coverage of paint and other coatings. (difficult to perform Snow jobs today) Where a job needed pre,post and intermediate temperature requirements would be a different matter. Failures are expensive, so a company would insist on proper procedures even without inspectors present.

 

[GHarman]

Welding Inspectors

In todays industry a CWI is necessary. Industry can demand a certain level of quality but can they proove it to their customer? Not only from a sales and contractual standpoint but a liability standpoint! There is only one way to do this and that is through eye witness, NDT & examination with documentation. In the old days there was not much prerequisite training required and this job was often given, as you say, to slackers or Brother in laws. We have passed that stage long ago. Training, and experience are an absolute necessity for the protection of the Customer as well as the Builders. There are in house training programs that may be adequate for proprietary issues. However, industries that provide products/services to or for the Public, or Government, under contract, wholesale or retail, must be able to document all quality requirements. Unfortunately, in all situations there are those that will shortcut any requirement for various reasons. There are also many Inspectors that will do their job come HE** or High Water and are answerable only to the Codes and Contracts. Those are the folks that I respect. This is certainly an over simplification of a very complex subject. I have worked a wide variety of jobs that required extensive inspections and documentation. Where changes were needed they were incorporated and written into the procedure. Inspectors not only certify and keep records of weldors. They also record deficencys, document and reinspect repairs. Everywhere a weldor has gone, a CWI will go to inspect and record the quality of work. My Friend is crawling around boiler tubes as I write this. GregH

 

[DJW]

GHarman, the last welding test I took was a in-house kind, so would not be valid anywhere else. I had many (like used bus tickets) papers, but often one had to recertify for the contract on hand. Some would only test those with recent certifications for their work, owing to the very poor quality of weldors seeking certification, I've seen stacks that wouldn't even be considered for testing. Some will have you run a few verticals just to see if it's worth giving you the prepared test pieces. (saves a lot of time, material and costs) One I took for a Bridge, the inspector said using 1/8 LH 7018 rod the first pass on the test pieces had to be 1/4 of an inch or you were out. I said on the vertical that was possible, but for the overhead that was a lot of metal to carry, he then said, by ignoring undercut as that was allowed, the 1/4 inch fillet was possible, I just ran the test and passed. I asked him why the 1/4 inch fillet with 1/8 rod, he replied that the 1/8 rod was the only one certified for the job, I was aware in some cases, that LH rod, often from the same manufacturer only certain sizes could be used. Sounded odd to me but apparently the case for some.

 

[DJW]

DValentine, here's one for a chuckle. I drug-up on a bridge job on a Friday, and on Saturday morning got a call from a Boilermaker I know asking if I could help him out just for five days, as a boiler job he was on had a lot of faults. I said I'd be there on the Monday, ran into 4 months. It was a Babcock and Wilcox type, steam drum etc. On the steam pressure testing there was a leak, about 6 inspectors, fired pressure vessel, piping, safety, combustion and all sorts. When the leak was discovered, panic stations set in, I believe running on natural gas at that test, (could also run of fuel oil) (imagine coal, having to pull fires) Bill the boilermaker erector that hired me, looked at his watch and said well it's 10 to 12, not much we can do right now, so we should all just go to lunch. At that bigger panic, the electrician holding on to his stomach ulcer, the resident stationary engineer said to me, I knew those tubes had been over-rolled, and most of the others just hoped the earth would swallow them up. When they came back, (don't think the food must have tasted all that good) Bill asked me to open one of the rear doors, and used a flashlight to inspect the tubes. Later he told me that the water was flowing by gravity and not pressure, that's why he was unconcerned, what had happened, there was a boiler on each side of the new one, and at noon it's customary to blow the tubes, the water was from the condensed vapor of the other two boilers, and the vents or whatever were open so some blew into the new boiler's exhaust. The State inspector was a pure nut, good job as made the job last so long, (State prints in error) so we made out like bandits.

 

[DValentine]

We were building a single boiler 113 megawatts in the winter of '05. Testing had been done on various systems, with water of course. Winter came in fast and caught a bunch of guys with there pants down..... no heat in the building at all. Hummmm

A lot of money was spent trying to keep the cooling tower containments from cracking. Funny how some things get overlooked.

DV

 

[JWelch]

I was on one in Nebraska earlier this year and it was an Ethanol plant. Big one I think they told me it was 150 million gallon / year plant. Not completely sure on that. All of the fermentation tanks were contracted out and shipped and installed at the site. Only problem was they decided to start hydro testing all of these tanks. Thats not bad I suppose even if the DAs in the front offices were under the delusion that this plant was going to be up and running in a few months. After they hydro tested em instead of pumping the water back into a tanker truck or something. No they just open the spicket on the tanks and drain em right there in the middle of January!!! These DAs did think far enough ahead that we had a bunch of pipe to still run out the to these tanks. Well there was a huge sheet of ice probably 3+ inches thick. So instead of calling off that part of the job until the ice issue was resolved they had us walking out on it. Then they put sand with no salt in it and pea gravel everywhere like that is supposed to help us walk on that any easier. One of their oldest GFs ends up breaking his leg in two places.



I didn't stay they much longer after that happened and they wouldn't listen to suggestions on what to do about the ice problem.

 

[Coalsmoke]

I was on one in Nebraska earlier this year and it was an Ethanol plant. Big one I think they told me it was 150 million gallon / year plant. Not completely sure on that. All of the fermentation tanks were contracted out and shipped and installed at the site. Only problem was they decided to start hydro testing all of these tanks. Thats not bad I suppose even if the DAs in the front offices were under the delusion that this plant was going to be up and running in a few months. After they hydro tested em instead of pumping the water back into a tanker truck or something. No they just open the spicket on the tanks and drain em right there in the middle of January!!! These DAs did think far enough ahead that we had a bunch of pipe to still run out the to these tanks. Well there was a huge sheet of ice probably 3+ inches thick. So instead of calling off that part of the job until the ice issue was resolved they had us walking out on it. Then they put sand with no salt in it and pea gravel everywhere like that is supposed to help us walk on that any easier. One of their oldest GFs ends up breaking his leg in two places.



I didn't stay they much longer after that happened and they wouldn't listen to suggestions on what to do about the ice problem.

If the super there new anything about working in a bit of winter conditions he'd have brought in 4lb expanded metal for you guys. Works real well on ice. One of the reasons I like being an independent is that when junk like that happens on the work site I can say see you later, I'm going back to the hotel, call me when you decide to make the site safe.

 

[GHarman]

If the super there new anything about working in a bit of winter conditions he'd have brought in 4lb expanded metal for you guys. Works real well on ice. One of the reasons I like being an independent is that when junk like that happens on the work site I can say see you later, I'm going back to the hotel, call me when you decide to make the site safe.

Like I said, "NO" is not a bad word! MAKE IT SAFE! GregH

 

[DJW]

DValentine, I hate to say this, but if American building firms bid in Japan as they are trying to they will become laughing stock. In 1975 I decided to join the Millwrights Union as I was fed up with shop work which was mostly ironwork beams, columns and miscellaneous iron, layout, fitting, welding some outside work, measuring up jobs, fabricating them then installing, but I wanted a variety of work, I like difficult jobs, where one has to think. I started work in Britain the next day after reaching 14 years of age, started on construction, had 4 jobs by the time I was 15, (I was in GREAT DEMAND) well not really, just got bored easily. Then an engineering job, owing it was War essential i couldn't quite, although I did try a few times, (forced labor?) Boys and girls in Wartime Britain on leaving school had to report for work, and had to take whatever job they were suited for. Although after the Depression everyone was eager to work. (money after all is a great inducement). I was fortunate as I worked shop and field, cut, weld, fit, layout, rig, climb, whatever it was you did it. I found that many of the jobs I worked on in the Millwrights I was dismayed at the quality, backwardness and pure utter stupidity. Plants that if the year had been in the 1600s would be out of date, you wouldn't believe the crudeness, and labor intensive the workers in the new plant endured. With the Labor Union busting reagan time, far as I'm concerned a disaster for the Nation, plus put more people on Welfare and Bankrupt the country, (what a Conservative) a total disaster for all, contractors and trades. I throughly enjoyed the trade, each job different and mainly a challenge, but started my own business so free to work as I pleased.

 

[JWelch]

Coalsmoke,



That is what pretty much happened. We refused to work in that area until they got it fixed. They got it broken up and hauled out of there. Only problem was it warmed up and everything melted. They knew it was happening (or should have) by watching the news. Then there was 3 inches of water everywhere and mud. But instead of getting a pumper truck out there and getting rid of all the water they left it. Well it froze again and I told my new foreman that I was not going back out there. He was a good one up until he let me go. Besides I was ready to go told the night before. Had me hiking all over that site dragging my stuff everynight to far ends of that place.

 

[DJW]

DValentine, inspectors, I could write a best seller for the construction trade. I was the fabricator's squawk man for any misfits, mistakes etc. It was a telephone microwave tower. On completion the inspector wanted the boxes the bolts came in, they were Hi-Ten naturally not all of the boxes remained on the roof of the telephone building. Even then he discounted the grade printed on the boxes The erector pointed out that all the bolts, washers and nuts were marked to specification grade. That he wouldn't accept as he would only inspect those at (ground) roof level. The outcome was the erector had to call the manufacturer and they agreed to mail a certification to the State. (government jobs pure gold) (all the ones I worked on turned out that way.

 

[GHarman]

Welding Practice Coupons

Thought I would keep the ball rolling. This is GTAW on 2" Schedule 40 Stainless Steel 304L, 6G position. Right/Left hand progression. For those of you that are not familiar with a pipe welding test. The welds were cut out of two pieces of pipe, welded together. There is no access to the inside. The weld is made entirely from the outside. Stainless Steel requires an Argon Purge. These were practice welds, preparing for a certification test, about 18 years ago. Time really flies:-laf. Here they are. Greg

 

[DJW]

Greg, they are great, one would swear done by machine on a synchronized roll. Doing that out of position one would think impossible, I understand the test piece is placed at an angle, thus a change in angle for all progression. I have welded a lot of pipe joints, hot taps, steel, stainless and molly, but never took that particular test, fact is I doubt if I could ever pass it. It takes a great strain with body to be able to produce such an equal deposit, plus keep control of the molten metal, which after all does seem to have a mind of it's own, well that's how it seems to me. I couldn't do that good even if I used toothpaste, followed by a scraper, not considering any burn through.

 

[DJW]

Greg, if I was pipe fitting, I'd ask the welder how he liked his joints, pipe horizontal or vertical, some have no preference while others favored their preferred position. I would always try and make sure any joint was in the open, thus easy accessible. Some fitters had no regard for the welders, and had no concern how difficult they had made it. I'd tell them, "I can do your job and theirs, and if you could do theirs, you'd feel the same way as I. " I'd tell them any fool could read a print and took no natural skill.

 

[rbattelle]

Wow, remarkable work, Greg.

Ryan

 

[GHarman]

Thanks Gents

These welds were done with 4 passes. Some did it in 3 and that was the preferred method. However, the WPS did not specify the number required so I pushed the limits by adding a hot pass over the root. It really smooths any imperfections and only adds about 5 minutes to the time. I usually use some . 035, 308L wire for the hot pass. The root, fill and cap were done with 3/32", 308L filler. A #4 cup for the root and hot pass, #7 Cup for the rest. The tungsten was a 1/16" 2% Thoriated. On the one picture you can see where I ran through an oversized tack. That alone would have failed the weld(the oversized tack). This was a 100% X-Ray job, Nuclear Process piping. BTW, DJW as I am sure you know but for the benefit of those that have never taken a pipe test. Once the CWI checks your tacks and checks the setup and angle with a protractor, He marks the location. If the marks are not where they were when you started, the weld is "Looked Out" (Not acceptable). You are the only thing that can move. That is the advantage of being able to weld Left and Right handed. I have used a mirror, next to a wall and welded, watching through the crack between tacks. Greg

 

[DValentine]

Hey Golden arm..... very nice. Have you tried the flux core stainless TIG wire? We have gotten away from purging and from solar flux. Kobelco makes the wire we have been using. It runs very nice. It melts fast, making for a faster feed than solid wire.

D

 

[GHarman]

Flux Core TIG Wire?

Man, has technology moved since I was Certified!! Never heard tell of such a thing. However, I am familliar with "Solar Flux" For No Purge welds. That was primarily used when doing Stainless Steel sheet metal with GTAW or GMAW processes, where 100% penetration was required. The welder/fitter mixed it with water and applied it with a brush. That was not even considered for pipe. To much residue left inside to clog instrumentation.

Thanks for the complements. Just wanted to say that, I doubt I could pass a test, now:{. I do have a stainless job coming up for myself. I have accumulated some scrap stainless steel pipe and fittings over the years and plan on building an air manifold for my shop. I have some practice nipples made up and will probably do all the work at the bench, rolling it out and walking the cup as I roll the pipeOo. . Lots easier on my neck. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Sulfur Content in Stainless Steels

Based on alot of experience with this material, there is a wide variety of metallurgical variation in Stainless Steel pipe. We had instances of one side completely fused at the root and the other only spotty penetration. The Weldor (experienced) was blamed for concentrating the heat on only one side of the joint which is unlikely when you are walking the cup. Earlier investigation into Stainless Steel puddle dynamics by welding engineers proved that penetration decreased as the Sulfur content was decreased. We are talking about Parts per Million here. When the two lots of pipe were investigated, it was found that the lots were widely divergent in Sulfur content. 200PPM Sulfur vs 40PPM Sulfur. Thats like having two completely different materials to weld together. This shows the importance of segration of materials by lot or Heat numbers. GregH