Engine Shutdown When In Regeneration Mode

[HBarlow]

Yeah, too bad our PSD friend didn't like us or our website. He'll probably fit in better on the Ferd site anyway.



In my opinion, anyone who buys Ferd diesel pickup trucks couldn't be very objective or well-informed.

 

[TKeeler]

TKeeler:



You referred to "Desoot" and "DeSOx" modes so apparently you have determined that there are two distinctly different regeneration modes. That is completely new information to me. I have never read reports from anyone else who knew this.



It would help explain the behavior of my truck. I have been puzzled by mine going into regeneration mode after driving only a few highway miles early on a morning after spending two or more days on the highway pulling my heavy fiver. I would have thought that steady highway driving under load for 1000 miles should completely clean the dpf.



sag2 appears to be correct that shutting down while in the regen mode won't harm the engine; his statement seems to be backed up by the fact that there are no warnings in the owner's manual. However, there have been several TDR members who have reported CELs and dealer visits for service or repair and they also report, as you did, that when their ECM was scanned it showed numerous failed attempts to complete regeneration. I assume that the dealer techs are blaming the need for a service visit on the failed regen attempts.



I want to learn how to avoid CELs and trips to the dealer for parts replacement and/or service procedures as well as early failure of components after the warranty expires. The 5. 9 ISBs were capable of dependable service life of hundreds of thousands, as much as 1,000,000 miles. , I expect the new 6. 7 engine is capable of the same service life if we learn to use the dpf and cat converter properly.

As near as I can tell the 'Desoot' is the 'Passive' Regeneration cycle and the 'DeSox' is the 'Active' Regeneration cycle. The 'Passive' regen happens pretty often but the 'Active' appears to only kick in when the 'Regen Filter' reaches the 4. 5 setting and the engine/exhaust are at the right conditions. What I am trying to get more details on are what those conditions are. I read on another forum that the vehicle had to be at 51 to 59 MPH but what else is required? Like a lot of other people I don't do much Freeway driving which it sounds like needs to happen to complete an 'Active' regeneration. Since the dealer forced the 'Active' regen and the 'Regen Filter' displayed 0. 0 it has slowly climbed back up to 2. 3.

 

[Coalsmoke]

One thing I have noticed, the truck will go into regen mode, but its not until about 20+ minutes in regen mode that (a little known to me) mode called Regen SOx is entered and this is when the actual regen (soot burning) process happens. I've seen this mode come up, but I'm not sure about the parameters surrounding it or even definitely what the SOx is in relation to, other than it maybe standing for suphur oxides.

 

[HBarlow]

As near as I can tell the 'Desoot' is the 'Passive' Regeneration cycle and the 'DeSox' is the 'Active' Regeneration cycle. The 'Passive' regen happens pretty often but the 'Active' appears to only kick in when the 'Regen Filter' reaches the 4. 5 setting and the engine/exhaust are at the right conditions. What I am trying to get more details on are what those conditions are. I read on another forum that the vehicle had to be at 51 to 59 MPH but what else is required? Like a lot of other people I don't do much Freeway driving which it sounds like needs to happen to complete an 'Active' regeneration. Since the dealer forced the 'Active' regen and the 'Regen Filter' displayed 0. 0 it has slowly climbed back up to 2. 3.

TKeeler,



If/when you learn those details please post them here. I'd like to learn those things also.



I wish Dodge didn't feel the need to keep these procedures secret from us owners. I can understand why they don't print it in the owner's manual, it would trouble many owners and others wouldn't even know it was written there, but most TDR members want to know and understand these things.

 

[HBarlow]

One thing I have noticed, the truck will go into regen mode, but its not until about 20+ minutes in regen mode that (a little known to me) mode called Regen SOx is entered and this is when the actual regen (soot burning) process happens. I've seen this mode come up, but I'm not sure about the parameters surrounding it or even definitely what the SOx is in relation to, other than it maybe standing for suphur oxides.

Coalsmoke,



Please keep us posted if/when you learn more.



Thought: Why two regen modes? I thought regen was for the purpose of burning accumulated soot particles trapped in the dpf.



Baffling!

 

[Coalsmoke]

Coalsmoke,



Please keep us posted if/when you learn more.



Thought: Why two regen modes? I thought regen was for the purpose of burning accumulated soot particles trapped in the dpf.



Baffling!

It seems that the preliminary DeSoot mode is some sort of needed precursor to the ReGen SOx mode, like its bringing the temps up throughout the entire DPF before activating the soot burn. Next time I notice this happening I'll see if I can take notes on the various sensor temps when in the DeSoot mode and then when in the ReGen SOx mode so we can compare them, I'm speculating that the DPF doesn't get its final heat dose until it has first been well warmed up to prevent it from cracking from thermal shock as was being seen in some of the early trucks with the DPF system, at least that is my best thoughts at the moment on the reason for its workings. I've had a presentation on the DPF systems for the OTR trucks, but they operate a little different than our smaller class 3-5 systems, and my knowledge here is limited, but I'll keep brainstorming and sharing with you guys, we'll get it figured out sooner than later.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Was watching the ReGen process today, seems that the DeSoot mode is definitely separated from the ReGen SOx mode, so as to say that when one is on it doesn't appear that the other is on, which could indicate it working as mentioned above.

 

[HBarlow]

Was watching the ReGen process today, seems that the DeSoot mode is definitely separated from the ReGen SOx mode, so as to say that when one is on it doesn't appear that the other is on, which could indicate it working as mentioned above.

Coalsmoke,



How can you tell?

 

[TKeeler]

Regen Cycles

Was watching the ReGen process today, seems that the DeSoot mode is definitely separated from the ReGen SOx mode, so as to say that when one is on it doesn't appear that the other is on, which could indicate it working as mentioned above.

My Dashhawk displays when each is on and I have never seen them both on at the same time. I do believe however that each time there is a 'DeSox' cycle it is proceeded by a 'DeSoot'.

 

[HBarlow]

TKeeler,



Ahhh, I see. You guys know about the two distinct modes because you have sophisticated monitoring equipment.



We're making progress, small steps but nevertheless progress toward understanding these complex systems.



I'm anxious for some engineer or chemist to explain what Desoot and DeSOx modes are and why.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Coalsmoke,



How can you tell?

I have an Edge Insight, lets a person watch and do some neat things.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Well HB, before switching to law based, I started my educmacaadermational life in engineering. If you can find out more about the ReGen SOx mode I can provide a half decent operational definition of it, but, not knowing then specifics of that mode its hard to come to any concrete conclusions, just educated speculations at best. Perhaps there's a member here who works with these systems, it would be interesting to hear from them. Anyone have a friend in Chrysler or Mercedes? As for the DeSoot mode, I am more or less convinced that it is there to warm up or prime the DPF prior to a "burn". I have noticed that when in the DeSoot mode, the upstream temps are higher and thus heat is being put into the system. Interestingly, when in the ReGen SOx mode (or burn mode), the downstream temps are hotter, indicating the burn of the soot. Interesting stuff for sure.

 

[HBarlow]

Coalsmoke,



Until a Chrysler engineer shows up to provide insider knowledge, your explanation will have to stand as authoritative. It makes sense that one serves to warm up the dpf to avoid shocking and damaging it.



Ultimately I may not progress much beyond my present extremely limited understanding of the secrets of regeneration.



Thanks for explaining what you know.

 

[PaulCormier]

Some sort of regen can occur if only the DeSoot gets turned on and the truck is shutdown before a DeSox happens. If a regen only occurred when a DeSox is on, then I would expect that the next time that you would start the truck, it should continue from where it left off... but it does not. It will not go back into a regen for a while (depending on how far it got before it was shutdown).



This is what I am finding very irritating... Over the past week, the truck has gone into regen 3 times - each time it decided to do a regen, I was within 10 minutes from home and did not have the ability to go for a "joy ride" to let the regen complete. It makes it far enough in the regen so that the next time I drive the truck, it does not continue from where it was when it was shutdown. So today for example, I do 3 trips, 20 mins, 20 mins, and 45 mins at 70 MPH. And guess what? It goes into a regen when I am 10 mins from home - and yet again, it doen't do a complete regen! #@$%!



What we really need is a gauge to let us know how plugged the DPF is. And a switch that allows us to delay a regen would solve my problem. This way, when I'm 10 mins from home, I would hit the switch to delay the regen. The next time I startup the truck, it would immediately start a regen - and 90% of the time, it would be able to complete a full regen. Would save fuel (prevent unnecessary regens that won't complete) and would solve the problem of shutting down during a regen...



Obviously, if the DPF was getting too plugged, the truck could be programmed to ignore the switch and go into regen anyways.



BTW, I also use the DH to figure out when the truck is in DeSoot and DeSox.

 

[grasmo]

Could chrysler be liable/lible? for wasting fuel and be held financially responsible/ class action suit?? I can tell you this... the dealer has instructed me to drive my truck further than I need to so the truck can finish a regen... think of fuel I have wasted on this air freshener.

 

[TKeeler]

I have an Edge Insight, lets a person watch and do some neat things.

I believe the Dashhawk and Edge are both made by MSD Ignitions. The difference being that the Dashhawk is read only whereas the Edge has the ability to increase HP and torque.

 

[Coalsmoke]

The Edge Insight that I have is not a tuner, it does however let you reset codes and perhaps some other interfaces that I haven't played with yet. Big one for me is reseting and read codes and reading all the various sensors and actuators. There are other Edge products out there though.

 

[HBarlow]

Some sort of regen can occur if only the DeSoot gets turned on and the truck is shutdown before a DeSox happens. If a regen only occurred when a DeSox is on, then I would expect that the next time that you would start the truck, it should continue from where it left off... but it does not. It will not go back into a regen for a while (depending on how far it got before it was shutdown).



This is what I am finding very irritating... Over the past week, the truck has gone into regen 3 times - each time it decided to do a regen, I was within 10 minutes from home and did not have the ability to go for a "joy ride" to let the regen complete. It makes it far enough in the regen so that the next time I drive the truck, it does not continue from where it was when it was shutdown. So today for example, I do 3 trips, 20 mins, 20 mins, and 45 mins at 70 MPH. And guess what? It goes into a regen when I am 10 mins from home - and yet again, it doen't do a complete regen! #@$%!



What we really need is a gauge to let us know how plugged the DPF is. And a switch that allows us to delay a regen would solve my problem. This way, when I'm 10 mins from home, I would hit the switch to delay the regen. The next time I startup the truck, it would immediately start a regen - and 90% of the time, it would be able to complete a full regen. Would save fuel (prevent unnecessary regens that won't complete) and would solve the problem of shutting down during a regen...



Obviously, if the DPF was getting too plugged, the truck could be programmed to ignore the switch and go into regen anyways.



BTW, I also use the DH to figure out when the truck is in DeSoot and DeSox.

I don't have the ability to recognize or distinguish between the DeSoot and DeSox modes as several of you do but since you've described it I've thought about the behavior of my truck and think mine uses two modes also.



Bob4x4 posted that regen should stop when the truck goes in Park. I first didn't believe mine does but remembered his comment and put my truck in park the next time it showed apparent regen mode while stopped at a traffic light. As soon as the shifter went into park the EGT cooled momentarily as if regen ended but then it climbed back up to a moderate temp. Maybe that was due to entering DeSoot but not DeSox mode.



sag2 posted a few days ago about a "net zero" operation where, if the truck is allowed to idle while in Regen mode, the ECM will ramp up the idle and it will burn the dpf clean. I've been pulling my fiver a lot the past two months and frequently get in and out of the truck when hooking up and allow it to idle. I always try to remember to turn the fast idle on when I do.



I only have a little over 8,000 miles on the odometer but, although I often allow the engine to run when I'm out of the truck, I don't let it actually "idle. " So far I've not had any codes set and my oil change monitor has still not called for an oil change although I changed the oil and filter at 5k miles w/o resetting the monitor.



The point of my wandering comments is I wonder if allowing the truck to fast idle a lot is actually a good thing and allows the ECM to stay ahead of the soot build up?



Lots to learn!