05 engine failure.. Please help

[BMHenry]

I have an 05 3500 5. 9L. . I was going down the high way when the turbo blew. . Blue/White smoke everywhere. I called the dealership and asked if it was ok to drive to them, and they said yes. . on my way to them oil pressure dropped and I shut the motor down and got it towed... They looked at it and said that the turbo blew due to a clogged air filter. . It is a AFE Pro Guard 7. They came to this conclusion by visual inspection of the air filter only. . They said the that the motor would need a long block, turbo, intercooler ect... They have not done a compression test, pulled the head, or taken apart the intercooler. The only dissassembly that has occured is the intake to the turbo. The district manager has rulled this as a no warrenty issue. . The motor has 99,508... The truck did have an edge chip on it years ago, but i took it off at 45,000 miles. .



Please advise on what I can do to get them to reverse their decision. . The turbo blew in rush hour traffic doing about 45-50 mph in 6th gear. .



Any ideas and imput are welcome... This is going on the third week of no vehicle. .

 

[jgillott]

OK, a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I don't have any advice as far as warranty coverage is concerned. Maybe someone else here can help you in that area.



If the repair ends up being on your dime, I would highly suggest towing your truck out of that dealership and to a good local diesel shop in your area. Let them take a look at the situation and go from there. Even if there is internal engine damage, it's going to probably be much more cost effective to get your truck out of the dealership and go from there.



Now, a couple of questions about your failure. When you say "blew the turbo" what do you mean? What part of the turbo failed? Did they indeed find that pieces of the turbo made it through the intercooler, through the intake, and through the grid heaters in to the engine? I've seen a few go over the years that all the junk has ended up in the intercooler.

 

[BMHenry]

That is the thing... They havent taken any of that down to look inside... Could I be just lucky enough to replace a turbo and intercooler. . When the turbo blew it was something like. . "driving then pfhssht loss of boost and power... Metal on metal sound pieces... They said that there are some peices of the turbine fins missing and the turbine looks like it wobbled. . If pieces made it throught the motor wouldnt there be pieces missing on the back side turbine as well?

 

[jgillott]

That is the thing... They havent taken any of that down to look inside... Could I be just lucky enough to replace a turbo and intercooler. . When the turbo blew it was something like. . "driving then pfhssht loss of boost and power... Metal on metal sound pieces... They said that there are some peices of the turbo fins missing. . If pieces made it throught the motor wouldnt there be pieces missing on the back side turbine as well?

Yes, you could be that lucky. In fact, as I have said, I have personally seen quite a few turbos go over the years that have done nothing but toss some junk in the intercooler. Of course there is no way to tell for sure without looking at it, but there is a distinct possibility that all you may need is a new turbo, clean out the intercooler, change the oil and go. I'm a little concerned about the loss of oil pressure, but again, there is no way to tell at this point what, or if anything is hurt.



Unless the dealership is going to cover your failure under warranty, I highly suggest you get that truck to someone who is willing to take a close look at it and find out exactly what you are dealing with.

 

[BMHenry]

The oil pressure dropped due to i guess the turbo sucking the oil out of the block. . It had full oil 2 days prior becuase I just checked it. . When i seen the oil pressure drop I shut it down and checked the block... Sure enough no oil on dipstick. . If I am luckey engugh, what turbo should I go with. . BTW anyone know a good shop in the STL area?

 

[jgillott]

The oil pressure dropped due to i guess the turbo sucking the oil out of the block. . It had full oil 2 days prior becuase I just checked it. . When i seen the oil pressure drop I shut it down and checked the block... Sure enough no oil on dipstick. . If I am luckey engugh, what turbo should I go with. . BTW anyone know a good shop in the STL area?

I would also assume that you lost the oil through the turbo, thus causing the drop in pressure. If you immediately shut it down, I highly doubt that it caused any serious internal problems. Again, that is assuming that nothing made it down in to the engine through the intake.

 

[BMHenry]

Does anyone have info on someone that I could contact to reverse the district managers decision to reconsider the warrenty... BTW how "clogged" does an air filter have to be to make a turbo go out? Also, dont they have to prove that the air filter was clogged by other than a visual inspection?



At any rate. . What would be the easiest way to determine if something got into the engine? Pull the head?

 

[WStephens]

check the heating grid if any pieces got past the intercooler it would have wiped out the heading grid element.

 

[HBarlow]

A good friend of mine was a Dodge dealership mechanic for several years. He does not and has not ever owned a Dodge-Cummins truck and his knowledge and understanding of them comes from the perspective of Dodge factory training courses and working in a dealership. He has spoken of the warnings the trainers passed down to dealer techs about owners modifying and hotrodding the trucks. That info is apparently part of the culture of dealership techs. He has also spoken many times about the times he saw late model Dodge-Cummins trucks hauled in on a rollback wrecker or driven in with complaints of high oil consumption or power loss. He or other techs would open the air box cover, find an AFE or other aftermarket air filter, shut the hood, and call the owner and tell him he needs an engine at his own expense. He is absolutely certain of the damage AFE filters cause in a dusty environment like West Texas where we live. From time to time other stories identical to yours pop up here on the TDR forum. I"ve never heard of anyone getting a free replacement engine.

Your chances of having a replacement engine installed at essentially 100k miles with a dirty aftermarket air filter known by dealer techs to cause early engine failure and probable electronic evidence of a magic black box having been run in the engine's history are almost certainly non-existent. Sure, you will receive advice to hire an ambulance chaser and sue the dealer, Dodge, Chrysler, or the maker of AFE filters. Good luck on that. Your attorney bills will exceed the cost of a new Cummins reman and you will probably still lose in court if you ever get before a judge or jury.

If I were you I would immediately gather up your truck and all it's parts, air filter included, and tow it to a Cummins shop. Pay a good Cummins shop to disassemble enough to determine if the long block is actually trashed or if it is still serviceable. If it were mine I would purchase and install a new Cummins reman engine with a warranty.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I would get it the heck out of the Dealer and to a Cummins shop or reputable Diesel shop(air fliter and all).



I would think that if the filter was clogged the engine would have power loss and you would of been blowing smoke out the tail pipe.

 

[BMHenry]

Thank you all for your input so far. . I called a local cummins shop (mid-south Cummins) and explained my situation to them. . From what I described the turbo looked like on the inside, he said it sounded like bearing failure. . I figured I would ask Chrysler to put their position in writing and send it to me. . Then go to the Cummins shop, have them take it down and see what they find. . If indeed the failure was caused by a bearing issue I will take that back to Chrysler and go from there. . Either way I will keep you guys posted on what the outcome of my adventures and motor are. .



BTW How do I move this thread to 3rd Gen. Engine talk, as there is no clear path to change Chryslers decision...



Thanks again guys and gals. .

 

[HBarlow]

Let us hear how this story turns out. Maybe the damage is confined to the turbo and an empty crankcase. Perhaps you shut it down before internal damage occurred.

 

[bighammer]

BTW How do I move this thread to 3rd Gen. Engine talk, as there is no clear path to change Chryslers decision...

Done. Best of luck with your truck.

 

[jelag]

Early on... I read a story published either by Honda America OR Motorcycle Consumer News... ... about aftermarket air filters used on Goldwings and that those aftermarket filters would pass to the engine an amount of dirt that was more than 4 times the dirt passed by the factory filter... . All the filters tested were the "lifetime" filters... . that were cleaned and serviced... . at that point I took the lifetime filter out of my Goldwing and went back to the stock filter... mind you... . its something like a 3 hour project to pull the plastic and replace this filter...

You'd be surprised how many of these lifetime filter manufactures make filters for both high end motorcycles and diesel trucks... . Enough said about this... .

I have seen 2 or 3 stock filters that have been sucked into the turbo in pieces because they were so plugged up and the vacuum was so high between the filter and turbo it pulled the filter apart... . These were trucks that were in our shop for PacBrake installation... .

WE have problems with truck air compressors (class 8) when the filter gets plugged and engine oil is drawn up past the rings and into the air stream when the air compressor is not pumping and finally into the engine... .

Filter management is very important.....

This all said... . a chunk of the screen and filter sucked into the turbo would cause excessive damage and vane damage... . so the question I need to ask is the air filter in one piece or has it been pulled into pieces because it wasn't serviced... .

Just my thoughts on this from first hand experience... .

 

[TCDiesel]

This memo I incepted back a couple Years ago

This info went out to all dealers. It applies to 5. 9's and 6. 7's. 5. 9's don't have to worry about the DPF part of this, but the rest is the same for the 5. 9L. Dealers are supposed to be on the lookout for these issues. This post is to help keep you informed...



PURPOSE:

• To advise of the inclusion of Exhaust After treatment components in order to be compliant

with EPA 2010 Diesel Emission requirements.

• To highlight the new vehicle limited Warranty Coverage associated with the installation of

aftermarket add-on components to a 6. 7L Diesel.

• To provide cause and effect information for aftermarket add-on components to a 6. 7L Diesel

engine.

TIMING:

Effective immediately.

ACTION:

The increased interest in aftermarket components and performance equipment, and its subsequent

installation by vehicle owners, has resulted in repair situations that may jeopardize the warranty

coverage of the vehicle. A reference sheet, included with this bulletin, has been developed to help

identify common 6. 7L Diesel add-on components and modifications and their potential effect on

factory component failures. Please ensure that all service and parts personnel have reviewed this

document and attached reference sheet and refer to it if they suspect a factory component failure may

have resulted from a Diesel aftermarket add-on component or modification.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

The 2007 6. 7L Cummins Diesel engine package includes a number of exhaust after treatment

components which are required to meet the stringent 2010 EPA NoX and Particulate matter

emissions. The system includes a Cooled EGR system, a sulfur oxide catalyst, nitrogen oxide

catalyst, and a Diesel Particulate Filter. Installing any aftermarket add-on components to the engine

system could render these systems inoperable, or cause severe damage to the components.

Refer to Section 3, What’s Not Covered, in the Vehicle Warranty Information Booklet for complete

details regarding the installation and use of aftermarket components, highlights of which are listed

below:

TO: Dealer Principal, Service Mgr. , Parts Mgr. , and

Warranty Claims Administrator

SUBJECT: Warranty Coverage Guidelines Associated

With Aftermarket Add-on Components to the 6. 7L

Cummins Diesel Engine Ram Truck



Warranty

Bulletin

Certain changes that you make to a vehicle do not, by themselves, void the warranties described in

this booklet. Examples of some of these changes are:

• Installing non-Chrysler LLC (“Chryslerâ€) parts, components, or equipment (…Chrysler

radio or speed control)

But your warranties do not cover any part that Chrysler did not supply or is not certified for use on

your vehicle. Nor do they cover the costs of any repairs or adjustments that might be caused or

needed because of the installation or use of such parts, components, equipment, materials, or

additives.

Performance or racing parts are considered to be non-Chrysler parts. Repairs or adjustments

caused by their use are not covered under your warranties.

Racing Not Covered

Your warranties do not cover the costs of repairing damage or conditions caused by racing, nor do

they cover the repair of any effects that are found as the result of participating in a racing event.

Note: This would also include the sport of Truck Pulling.

If the vehicle is believed to be abused due to the installation of add-on component parts or racing

activity, all information should be documented and presented to your District Manager for review

and possible vehicle component restriction.

If you sell and /or install Mopar Performance parts, refer to the Mopar Performance Catalog for

specific warranty coverage regarding Mopar performance parts, some excerpts of which are listed

below:

No Parts Warranty

As referenced in all Mopar Performance Catalogs, Mopar Performance parts are sold “as isâ€

unless otherwise noted. This means that the parts sold by Mopar Performance carry no warranty

whatsoever... The addition of performance parts does not by itself void a vehicle’s warranty.

However, added performance parts (parts not originally supplied on the vehicle from the factory)

are not covered by the vehicle’s warranty and any failure that they may cause is also not covered by

the vehicle’s warranty.

Note: For information related to the 5. 9L Diesel, refer to Warranty Bulletin D-05-28.

Please ensure that all affected personnel are aware of this bulletin.

WARRANTY OPERATIONS

Typical MODIFICATIONS Found On Chrysler 6. 7L Diesel

Vehicles

Turbo Boost Controllers

Manual or Electronic which increase the amount of turbo boost allowed by the ECM.

Turbo Intercooler Sprayer

Manual or Electronic which provide a cooling mist of water spray on to the intercooler. This

increases the cooling capability for compressed air, increases air density and produces

more power.

High flow custom air intake systems

Custom air intake systems allow for maximum air flow which increases power but may

reduce the filtering capabilities allowing more dirt to pass through.

High flow custom exhaust systems

Custom exhaust systems allow for maximum exhaust flow reducing backpressure and

increasing power.

Over sized intercoolers

Higher cooling capability for compressed air increases air density and produces more

power.

Oversized (higher boost) Turbo larger turbine

Provides more air and high pressure into the combustion chamber.

High performance Powertrain Control Module (PCM) or Engine Control

Module (ECM)

Greatly change engine calibration and performance.

Propane Kits

Liquid Propane Gas (LPG) systems add additional fuel to the combustion chamber which

increases power.

Nitrous Oxide Kits

Nitrous Oxide (NO) systems add additional oxygen to the combustion chamber which

increases power.

Oversized fuel injectors/fuel rails and regulators

Allowing for more fuel to be delivered into the combustion chambers increases power.

Diesel performance enhancing equipment.

This equipment causes the engine to make more power by increasing the amount of fuel

and air available to the engine.

Typical FAILURES Caused By Aftermarket Modifications:

Burnt pistons

Pistons, rings, and lands showing signs of overheating and burning. In many cases the

pistons may be burnt down the side of the piston skirt. In Diesel engines this can be caused

by performance enhancing devices adding more fuel to the engine resulting in much hotter

combustion temperatures.

Burnt valves.

See Burnt Pistons

Exhaust/Catalytic Converter Melt downs (melted catalyst bricks)/

Cracked manifolds

See Burnt Pistons. Very high exhaust temperatures due to very rich fuel mix levels and

unburned fuel entering the exhaust system.

Exhaust/Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) cracked

See Oversized fuel injectors/fuel rails and regulators. Very high soot generation due to very

rich fuel mix levels and excessive unburned fuel entering the exhaust system.

Catalyst/Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) straight pipes

An exhaust pipe installed in place of the catalytic converters and the DPF. This causes the

ECU to set codes and causes the system to be out of compliance for emissions.

Burnt or Blown fuel injectors

See Burnt Pistons. Fuel injector body cracks can result in raw fuel leaking into the

crankcase diluting the oil.

Spun Rod, Main Bearings and Blown Head Gaskets

See Burnt Pistons. Also, caused by higher than acceptable turbo boost pressures; rods,

mains and head gaskets can not handle the extreme pressure put on them by the

increased power.

Diesel fuel injection pump.

Look for seizure or cracks in the pump.

Repeated overheating

All of the above.

Transmission, Clutch, Driveshaft or Axle Damage

Diesel power enhancing devices can put excessive stress on transmission, clutch,

driveshaft and/or axle components resulting in premature failure

 

[BMHenry]

Jelag... Thats just it. . The filter is still in one piece with no signs of "excessive suction or missing parts of the filter" that the dealership is claiming... Besides, I just serviced it only 3 months ago. . Driving conditions are in Central Eastern Missouri. . The main thing is my dad has had an AFE intake on his truck for the same amout of time as I have had mine and with less frequent cleanings. His sight glass still reads great for air flow. . Makes you wonder. . No smoke or any other of the apparent signs of clogged air filter were present. .



The only thing I wanted from the Dealership and Chrysler in general was a flow test, to indeed deem that the filter was "clogged". If the results would have came back that it was out of stock spec, then I would have let it drop there. But when they said that "this is our stance and we understand that we might loose a customer over this and we are fine with that"... . Leaves a bad impression with the customer...

 

[CKelley1]

any oiled filter is a accident looking for a place to happen. and wears the hell out of the engine getting there, with as many bulletins out on this very item from cummins and chrysler you are wasting your time. on the new engine go back to oem air filter and avoid fram oil filters and you will 1. have a 20 year engine 2. learned an expensive lesson

 

[TCDiesel]

BMHenry, I doubt the filter had any connection to this failure (If visually inspected and intact), Now proving this is going to be your responsibility it will require effort and resources on your part. 1st you need to have the evidence that the filter did not cause the failure,2nd you will need the Dealers help in submitting the claim to the area rep, ( usually this requires filling in the county you live in) brings those documents to the Dealer Owner/ Rep to submit to the Chrysler( the Dealer will have to be included in the sued according to law) Rep for overview and considering. This is the 1st action ( DO NOT FILE THE CLAIM WITH THE COUNTY AT THIS TIME) Wait for a response from Chrysler.

 

[TCDiesel]

The fact the Dealer advised to operate after the failure ,added the possibility of further complications. . Poor advice IMO.

 

[GaryOwen]

A few thoughts - If your filter was indeed clogged, which sounds very unlikely, you should have been getting excessive black smoke prior to turbo failure. I agree with TWest that if air filter is intact, the filter was unlikely cause of turbo failure. If you happened to have an oil analysis run lately, it could be good evidence of efficiency of air filter.