Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 01 erratic idle/runs Rough

[Deere6410]

Working on a friends 01 6 speed 3500 with 155,xxx miles. The thing is driving me INSANE. It was running really bad, had no power and a really bad random miss. I removed the Edge box, didn't help. He was wanting new injectors before this, so we went ahead and put some new 40 hp injectors in. NO improvement. Pulled the codes, had injection pump timing codes and cam sensor code. Replaced injection pump and cam sensor. No help. Replaced Map sensor. NO change. Noticed thud sound coming through intake. Thought it might have a valve problem. So we pulled the head and sent it to a good shop. They said the valve seals were the worst they ever saw. So they completely overhauled the head. Just got it back on today and got it started. STILL DOES THE EXACT SAME THING! Anybody have any suggestions. I've checked ALL the wiring, turbo and boots. Oh and it also has a complete Fass system and holds 18 psi constant. Any Ideas, ECM bit the dust maybe?

 

[JLandry]

How long has it been doing this? Has he been driving it like this for awhile, or did he pretty much park it when the problem began?



Did the problem start all of a sudden, or did it start gradually and then get worse?



Did he do any repairs or modifications immediately before it started?



John L.

 

[Deere6410]

Started doing it while out one day driving , just all the sudden. Had to drive it about 20 miles back home after it started missing and parked it. Also it will randomly, while idleing, rev up itself like you punched the peddel really quick. The new injectors were actually put in a few weeks before this problem started, but I took the injectors out of my truck and stuck them in his just to make sure he didn't get a bad set. Made NO difference, still had the miss.

JT

 

[JLandry]

JT,



Man this is a tough one isn't it?



If you hadn't already said the fuel injection pump was replaced, I'd sure suspect it might be the cause. Where did the replacement pump come from and was it rebuilt?



I assume you've cleared all the trouble codes. Are you getting any of them back? If yes, which ones?



You might try unplugging and reconnecting the ECM and PCM connectors.



What year is your truck, and what type transmission do you have? I ask because possibly you could temporarily install your ECM in your friend's truck

to see if that helps.



Good luck,



John

 

[PVanderlugt]

TPS maybe ?? < the "will rev up on it's own " kinda would leave me to think in that direction.
Pete

 

[JLandry]

Pete,



That crossed my mind too, but I don't see how the APPS could cause the engine to run rough. Screwy rpm control yes. Rough running? That doesn't seem to fit the typical APPS problem.



Best regards,



John L.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Hook the VP44 directly to the battery and see if the miss goes away. If it does it simply means the VP, injectors, and inj. lines are not the problem with the miss. Then start checking all electrical connectors, including cleaning all grounds.

Follow the test lead connections in post #4 of this thread https://www.turbodieselregister.com...nsmission-1998-5-2002/74018-testing-vp44.html

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[Deere6410]

The truck is an 01 6 speed. I did unplug and replug the ecm. DIdn't help. Cleaned all grounds. Unpluged and cleaned every connector I could think of. I took the apps off my truck and tried it on his just to be sure, but no change. I still keep getting the one code that the cam sensor does not agree with the injection pump. The pump came from industrial injection. I'm lil scared to put my ecm on his truck. I like him and all, but he can't afford to buy 2 ecm's. This thing is really starting to get me Torqued!#@$%!

 

[JLandry]

JT,

Aha!

That trouble code is a very important clue which may help us figure this out. But I need to know the exact trouble code number. Is it P0370?

Thanks,

John L.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

HHmmm. Wrong pump shaft key possibly?

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[JLandry]

Trent,



Yah... I'm wondering if he had a bad VP44, then when installing the new one, accidentally got the keyway in backwards. If the new pump's timing were off, that could possibly make it seem just as bad as the original.



Or another idea is maybe there's some sort of communication problem between the camshaft position sensor and the ECM, which is causing the ECM to send bogus timing commands to the VP44. The ECM would think the camshaft is in a certain position and the VP44 computer would think it was in another, hence a DTC would be set.



Or maybe there's a communication problem between the VP44 and the ECM.



Having a DTC number to point us in the right direction sure would be helpful.



Regards,



John L.

 

[Deere6410]

The actual code is a 1690. Which is crankshaft position sensor code, but it doen't have a crankshaft sensor. So it really makes no sense to me. I figured it just meant the camshaft sensor, so I replaced it. How do you get the keyway in backwards? Looks like it only goes in one way to me. I've installed them before without any problems. Just put the key way at 12 Oclock and pull the old one. Set the new one at 12 and gentle slide it in.



JT

 

[Harlacher]

"I removed the Edge box, didn't help. "

Could the Edge have left a footprint. I don't know if that is possible but that or the wrong Key seem to me to be the only things left.

My Edge does crazy things to my engine, I stack it with a smarty and have to be careful. It can be off and still affect performance (at least when I turn it back on and reset it things go back to normal) .

 

[mweiman]

You said it doesn't have a crankshaft position sensor but isn't it located just above the starter?

 

[JLandry]

The actual code is a 1690. Which is crankshaft position sensor code, but it doen't have a crankshaft sensor. So it really makes no sense to me. I figured it just meant the camshaft sensor, so I replaced it. How do you get the keyway in backwards? Looks like it only goes in one way to me. I've installed them before without any problems. Just put the key way at 12 Oclock and pull the old one. Set the new one at 12 and gentle slide it in.

JT,

Now we're getting somewhere!

That P1690 DTC actually refers to a problem with the fuel sync circuit between the ECM and VP44 computer and not a missing camshaft and/or crankshaft angle sensor fault. There are different DTC's for those. The engine behavior you've described fits in nicely with DTC P1690.

There are four general causes for this DTC:

1. Excessive interference (noise) on the power being supplied to the ECM.

2. A problem with the wiring harness between the ECM and VP44 (an open or short).

3. The static timing on the VP44 is incorrect.

4. The ECM has an internal problem.​

In order of probability, I'd hazard a guess the wiring harness would be most suspect. Here's how you check it:

Disconnect the 9-pin VP44 connector and the 50-pin ECM connector. Using an Ohmmeter, check for continuity between pin 18 of the ECM connector and pin 8 of the VP44 connector (diagrams attached). The wire you're checking is 18 Ga and Dark Green. The resistance between the pins should be less than 5 Ohms. If greater, you have an open circuit and you'll need to find and fix the break in the wire.

Next, check for continuity between each of these same pins and a good ground. Any continuity at either pin with the ground indicates the wire is shorted somewhere and you'll have to find and fix the cause.

If nothing turns up in the wiring harness, then I'd next suspect the static timing of the VP44 might be off. But you can safely dismiss this possibility if you're *sure* the VP44 drive gear wasn't moved off a tooth one way or the other (highly doubtful because I'm not sure that's possible without removing the timing gear cover) and you're *sure* you used the correct key and it's orientated correctly (see arrow on attached diagram).

As to noise on the power supply...

According to the Dodge diagnostic manual, noise which affects the VP44 fuel sync circuit originates from the lift pump circuit. While that's a possible source of the problem, I'd think it'd be doubtful since the truck has a FASS system. I think the only way to check for noise properly would be with an oscilloscope. If noise is found, Dodge recommends replacing the lift pump.

Failing the above, the only thing left is the ECM being at fault.

Please keep us posted on what you find.

Good luck,

John L.

 

[Deere6410]

Nope, 01 or 02 does not have a crankshaft sensor, I looked, not there. All the wiring checks out good. I did find a wire that was a lil chafted, but I repaired it. Still no change. My buddy told me to load it up and haul it to the local Dodge dealer. Said he told them to plug it up and see what they find out before I have NO hair left. I've about pulled it all out. #@$%!

JT

 

[Deere6410]

The dealership swore the cam\crank sensor was bad and that we had not put a new one in. So they put another one on and guess what, same problem and same code. The computer and program all checked out good. So they said it has to be something with the cam itself, we had already done everything else it could possible be. That was my thoughts to, so they jerked the cam out and BINGO. The cam shaft is completely junk! The lobs are worn down and the teeth are half stripped off the gear. :{ Go figure... ... .

JT

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Hhhhmmm, vewy inwesting...

Makes me wonder what the rest of the internals look like????

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[BILLVO]

Shows the importance of oil sampling, It would have shown the start of your problems long ago.

 

[JLandry]

... the teeth are half stripped off the gear.

I'm glad they found, but what could possibly could have caused it? By chance did the "Killer Dowel Pin (tm)" fall out and strike here?



John L.