Better RV Brands?

[Grizzly]

Does anyone have any knowledge on an Open Range 5er or trl. Norton

notron46, I couldn't find any listing on a Open Range 5th Wheel in my RV Consumer group, which covers 5th wheels and TT to 2008. If it's a 2009 or a 2010 model, I will have the upgrade data for my RVCG guide soon.



Thanks for the nice compliment you gave Harvey and myself. Many TDR folks have helped me out in other ways to do with my Dodge trucks and my last trip to Alaska, that I just like to pay back and help others out. As Harvey said, sometimes we don't win friends with what we have to say about inferior brands, but I say it like it is.



george

 

[RustyJC]

The Avion name disappeared in the '90s. The original "real" Avion was an aluminum skinned trailer very similar to the Airstream that was a competitor to the Airstream back in the '50s through the late '80s. I owned an '87 that was an excellent trailer.

An RVing friend of mine here in the Houston area just found and purchased a super-clean 87 triple-axle Avion over in Bellville, TX. Inside and outside, it looks like it's hardly been used, although some of the decals are understandably sun-faded. Of course, this couple is a real fan of "silver twinkies" - the Avion is replacing a smaller late 70s Silver Streak that was purchased new by the wife's father.



Rusty

 

[notron46]

HB, i understand, i think most of us do.

Griz, i will be looking forward to it, thanks, Norton

 

[Grizzly]

To Barlow and Griz, you guys are great, all the info you pass on is very helpful to all of us. my wife and i have been fulltiming for 12 years and have been to Alaska for the summers of 05 and 09, wish we knew you had a campground Mr. B, we would have stopped by. i always say your never to old to learn, and you guys have proven me right. thanks again. Norton

Norton,



Received my new RVCG data today.



The 2009 and 2010 Open Range are all rated 3 stars. Reliability for all are rated 74. Value for all are rated 70. These RV's are made for Snowbirding. This Indiana manufacture was started by Randy Graber in 2007, so they are a young upstart. If you have a specific model number, I can tell you more.



Hope this helps, george

 

[notron46]

RV ratings

Grizzly, thanks for the info. the 3 rating is lower than i want to go. i will be looking at the Arctic Fox. were looking for something to travel in when we want to cover lots of ground over a couple of months, and don't want to pull our 5th wheel. thanks again. Norton

 

[jratti]

This question has been a top priority for me over the past 10 years, and I've done a fair amount of research, especially pouring over the RV Consumer Group Ratings CD. Not easy to find the top quaility 5th Wheels in your price range. Having said that, the top rated brands include: New Horizons (the absolute best), Excel, Teton, Alfa, King of the Road, Ameri-camp, Arctic Fox, Eagle, Mobile Scout, Nash, Quest, and Shadow Cruiser. Several of these are out of business, but if you are looking for used, you will find them.

If you are very serious about your research, buy the latest RV Consumer Group ratings guide.

 

[JHansen]

The Avion name disappeared in the '90s. The original "real" Avion was an aluminum skinned trailer very similar to the Airstream that was a competitor to the Airstream back in the '50s through the late '80s. I owned an '87 that was an excellent trailer.



The family that owned Avion sold out to Fleetwood around '89 or '90 and Fleetwood built it another year, perhaps two, then dropped the line.



Fleetwood continued using the Avion brand name on large fifth wheels for another three or four years and finally dropped the name around '95.

I've seen photos of the original Avions-never have seen an actual one. The odd Airstream still floats around up here, but few and far between. I know Fleetwood is not noted for high quality product-as I stated in my original post the Terry that my parents own does not impress me with quality of workmanship. Can't remember off the top of my head exactly where either was built, but I know theirs was built in a different factory than mine was.



I am slowly compiling a list of wants/needs/things to stay away from for my next unit-but it'll be a while down the road as I'm currently between employment. For myself, I would rather purchase a quality-made used trailer compared to a new shoddily-made one-so the list gets short. One of the things that I looked for when I purchased this trailer was something that I could stand straight up in the bedroom area-I am 6'1" in socks so that eliminated quite a few. The Westport I have tapers down to the front, as I'm sure most trailers do. I can stand in the back, which is all I really needed. The Jayco that I looked at had the most room, and I walked out of a lot of decent units after 30 seconds when I couldn't clear the bedroom roof.



Jason

 

[RustyJC]

I've seen photos of the original Avions-never have seen an actual one. The odd Airstream still floats around up here, but few and far between.

Here is the Avion our RVing friends just found and bought. This picture was taken when they went to pick it up before it had been cleaned up - in "as found" condition.



#ad




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Since purchasing it, Ken has repainted the lower outside trim, rewired it for 50 amp service, has added a 2nd AC unit and is now modernizing the interior color scheme - new carpet, flooring and so forth.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

That's a beautiful 34' Avion. It brings back fond memories of the '87 Avion 32' I owned. They were really great trailers and many of them are still in service. They were built by the Cayo family in Southwestern Michigan and were much more common in MI, IN, IL, OH, and upper mid-western states.

My memory is fuzzy now but that's about an '89 or '90, one of the last years the aluminum Avion was built after Fleetwood bought Avion.

Edit: Rusty, do your friends know that some parts are still available from Cayo in Watervliet, MI? I think one of the sons or perhaps grandsons, Chuck Cayo, is still in business there repairing an occasional Avion and selling a few rare parts. I stopped by once and met him and bought a few pieces from him in the early '90s. If they found that trailer on the Avion website they may already know that.

 

[AHarris]

Hornet Hideout Update

Had the Hideout for about a month now. Ended up with 4 problems:

1. Air conditioner was not cooling efficiently. Dealer fixed problem in plenum which was not mixing the air properly. Works fine now.

2. Black and grey tank valves had flue in the grooves and wouldn't close properly. Discovered this the hard way when I took the end cap off to empty the black tank at the dump station. :{ Dealer replaced both valves. They work fine now.

3. Door locks were sticky and my wife broke off a key in one of them. They replaced one of the locks and lubed they others. Work better now.

4. A dent showed up (protruding outward) between the two slide outs. Turns out the aluminum siding was bent slightly on installation. Keystone is honoring the warranty and dealer will fix camper in off season (at my request). It's a 40 hour job requiring removal of both slide outs because it's the top panel closest to the roof.

All in all a good camper--2 weeks in the shop and all is well on the second shakedown. The quality is ok overall, and much better than the Fleetwood product I owned before (mentioned earlier in this thread). I like the 16" wheels and radial tires.

Keystone? Yes I think there's better out there in terms of build quality. A little QC at the factory and pre-delivery function testing at the dealership would have caught these. But the dealer (Campers RV in Shreveport, LA) has been fantastic about backing up the products they sell. That's worth a lot.

I paid $18K for a brand new 30' camper--got a little more than I paid for. Someday I'll get that Airstream or Hitchhiker 5th wheel... but right now I need the money for a house.

 

[Shadrach]

One of my co workers Mothers has a 2010 Springdale ( it's either a 267BHSSRWE or a 267SRTWE - not sure. I know it's not a high quality model, but we only use our old Prowler for weekends and several week long trips during the summer. We really like the floor plan and options the 267 model has. Grizzly How does this rate for our usage? I am not looking for a leather or brass and chrome coach, but a TT that can go to the beach and the woods and still hold up to family usage. I'm sure we would be better of with one of their mid lines or a Nash product, but just curious. Thanks Shadrach

 

[Grizzly]

One of my co workers Mothers has a 2010 Springdale ( it's either a 267BHSSRWE or a 267SRTWE - not sure. I know it's not a high quality model, but we only use our old Prowler for weekends and several week long trips during the summer. We really like the floor plan and options the 267 model has. Grizzly How does this rate for our usage? I am not looking for a leather or brass and chrome coach, but a TT that can go to the beach and the woods and still hold up to family usage. I'm sure we would be better of with one of their mid lines or a Nash product, but just curious. Thanks Shadrach

Shadrach,



I hate to be bare of bad news, but if you're on a budget, consider a Nash, which is a 4 star rated trailer.



The Springdale West 267BHSSR and the Springdale West 267SRT are the same and are 29' long. They are made by Keystone and are both rated 2 stars. They are made for Vacationing use, which is a limited number of days. Their Reliability is rated at 67 and their Value is rated at only 60. Keystone along with Forest River and Fleetwood are not considered Quality trailers.



Here's a construction comment by JD Gallant of RV Consumer Guide;



Keystone's entry-level trailers are entry-level in construction qualities as well as price. The old saying, "You get what you pay for," is pretty right on for this trailer brand if you don't pay too much. Mostly built with lots of wood in framing, roof rafters, and floor joists; and some have a bit of aluminum here and there. Skins are usually aluminum on stick trailers, but some have fiberglass skins. EPDM rubber is usually used as a roof cover. The extra-light brands use stamped steel -- which is always a concern since the thickness can be anything. The chassis on those I've seen are basic, using leaf springs without shock absorbers. Overall, the problems aren't so much the materials and design as the workmanship. When I check closely, which I do habitually, I find that much of the design covers flaws. Fast turnout means fast worker pace which in turn usually means a higher rate of workmanship flaws. There's too much of it in this brand and most of the other Keystone trailers I've inspected. If you buy one, expect a better than 50% chance of getting something worse than just a pain in the neck.



george

 

[HBarlow]

I agree with Grizzly and his RV buyer's guide. Keystones are simply not very well built.

However, if the seller originally purchased it deeply discounted from the dealer (unlikely) and if the seller made a large downpayment or paid cash (even more unlikely) and has a low pay off balance or none at all (not likely) and you can buy it for about 40% of original MSRP it might be an acceptable buy. It it is priced higher than that why bother? If you're going to pay retail price for a new one buy a Nash as Grizzly suggested or a late model used trailer built by a better manufacturer.

You understand that it will never be a high quality, durable, and well insulated unit but if you and your family could buy it cheap and use it for a few years of weekends and short summer vacation trips it could give you decent service.

 

[Shadrach]

Thanks guys. You said exactly what I thought you would and therefore I am not surprised at the low ratings. A local dealer has a brand new 2010 267 model up here on "sale" for only $24,595. 00 CDN. ( list $27,795. 00 CDN. ) I guess they think all Albertans are rich, not this one. I assume Keystone's mid priced line probably still isn't as good as a Nash. My brother bought a brand new Keystone Hornet back in 2002 and like a lot of others the lino ripped during the cold winter as it is only glued around the edges and not in the center. Like I said we don't use ours enough just yet to justify spending that much, so I would buy a used one anyway. We have had our 1987 Fleetwood Prowler 24P for 11 years now and I can see the quality isn't there. We like the setup in it but would like a real bed and a slide for more room for when the weather turns foul. The newer trailers have much more friendly features, like electronic ignition instead of pilot lights and bigger fridges, and windows that actually seal and keep out the cold. One thing I have noticed is that most don't have much for counter space. My wife isn't happy about that. We do eat outside sometimes but we also have bugs up here so that isn't always an option. She still likes to prepare the food inside, and if she is willing to do the cooking I make sure she gets the counter space she wants.



What's the main difference between the Nash and Arctic Fox versions? I looked at their floorplans and didn't see one that we liked as much as the 267 Springdale setup. I do believe quality is much better than looks and options, but if Nash doesn't have what we want I won't buy it either. Here is the floorplan of the Springdale 267 series which is the basic setup that we like.



Keystone Springdale | Floorplans



Shadrach

 

[gtoli]

What's the consensus on Tango trailers made by Pacific Coachworks?

 

[HBarlow]

I don't know a thing about them other than they are a relatively new and unproven product. Being old, conservative, and skeptical I lean toward the older, established, and better known brands.

Given a certain amount of money to spend on an RV, my choice would usually be for a clean used unit from a better manufacturer rather than a shiny new one at the same price from a cheap mass producer or start up company.

 

[Grizzly]

Thanks guys. You said exactly what I thought you would and therefore I am not surprised at the low ratings. A local dealer has a brand new 2010 267 model up here on "sale" for only $24,595. 00 CDN. ( list $27,795. 00 CDN. ) I guess they think all Albertans are rich, not this one. I assume Keystone's mid priced line probably still isn't as good as a Nash. My brother bought a brand new Keystone Hornet back in 2002 and like a lot of others the lino ripped during the cold winter as it is only glued around the edges and not in the center. Like I said we don't use ours enough just yet to justify spending that much, so I would buy a used one anyway. We have had our 1987 Fleetwood Prowler 24P for 11 years now and I can see the quality isn't there. We like the setup in it but would like a real bed and a slide for more room for when the weather turns foul. The newer trailers have much more friendly features, like electronic ignition instead of pilot lights and bigger fridges, and windows that actually seal and keep out the cold. One thing I have noticed is that most don't have much for counter space. My wife isn't happy about that. We do eat outside sometimes but we also have bugs up here so that isn't always an option. She still likes to prepare the food inside, and if she is willing to do the cooking I make sure she gets the counter space she wants.



What's the main difference between the Nash and Arctic Fox versions? I looked at their floorplans and didn't see one that we liked as much as the 267 Springdale setup. I do believe quality is much better than looks and options, but if Nash doesn't have what we want I won't buy it either. Here is the floorplan of the Springdale 267 series which is the basic setup that we like. Keystone Springdale | Floorplans



Shadrach

The difference is More Money. The Arctic Fox had Dexter running gear and the Nash has American brand, but not as superior as Dexter. The AF have better nicer options as standard features. When I was shopping for a 5th wheel, I could not get an onboard generator and 16" wheels on a Nash at that time, so I went for the more spendy AF. Both have 12" I beam frames made in their own plant in La Grande, OR.



Here's what RV Consumer Group has to say about Northwood Mfg products according to JD Gallant of RV Consumer Guide;



As I've covered RV shows, visited factories, and talked to consumers throughout the years, I learned that Ron and Sherry Nash build a good trailer -- and they stand behind it. Their product isn't perfect but it has good value primarily because it is well constructed for its price range. Until about 2005, it was mostly wood framed with aluminum skin. Now it's up to the modern standard of aluminum framing, block foam, and fiberglass skin. It appears the workmanship is still above average.



I like this Nash 29' TT floor plan. click here

 

[Grizzly]

What's the consensus on Tango trailers made by Pacific Coachworks?

They have a 2. 5 star rating and are a young upstart RV manufacturing Co. called Pacific Coachworks.



Here's what JD Gallant has to say about their construction quality;



When the Pacific Coachworks founders decided to open a plant in Riverside, California, they couldn't have chosen a place with more available RV building talent. With Fleetwood and National out of the picture, everything was there and available. Still, the RV industry is a tough world -- especially with people like me throwing barbs. But, with this company I'm almost stalled. Having not seen the product, I can only speculate on what I've heard coming through the grapevine. And, as you know, grapevines don't always produce good stuff. I have no idea how they build the Twist lightweight, but the construction of the Tango looks good. It appears that they laminate the walls with aluminum framing, foam insulation, and gelcoat fiberglass. They do use wood in the floors and roof -- which is okay by me as long as it's done right. The roof is covered with rubber. The construction details will have to wait until I do a quality check. Let's hope they make it past the 5-year barrier that flattens so many new guys. Shucks, they've only got a bit more than 2 years to go. (2012)



This brand should be OK, but we don't expect it be good. That opinion comes from their philosophy of building a trailer that will fit into the budget of a down-turned economy. This usually means entry level or below. That the management came from an RV company that produced trailers at entry level and below should not influence us, but it does. We think you should use extreme caution if you get this brand on your list of brands worth considering. Expect workmanship flaws and materials that will give you trouble in both the short and long haul.



george

 

[gtoli]

Thanks Harvey and George.



I bought a Tango 224 RB as an entry level trailer in April. Wish I had a little more information at the time, although the fit and finish of the trailer is very good and so far it has held out good over short, less than 100 mile, jaunts into the local forests and an over 3000 mile trip through the western states last August. The trips I've made into the forest have been over gravel and sometimes very rocky and rutted roads with no problems. Everything has worked flawlesly so far.



The Tango line is a four season model with insulated and heated floor and I have camped comfortably in below freezing temperatures.



So far I'm very pleased with my Tango and will post any future issues that I may have.



Gene

 

[Shadrach]

" I like this Nash 29' TT floor plan. "

Too bad it doesn't have bunks. Thanks for the info. Shadrach