Bio fuel manufacturers are hypocrites!

[Sticks]

I watched a show on the babysitter the other night called "Gas Hole" - about the oil companies and the world plight of diminishing petroleum supplies and so forth.

Eventually they got around to Diesel and renewable energy sources. When they were talking about Bio Diesel, they were commenting on how simple it was to manufacture, and the available ingredients, blah blah blah.

When the Bio reps were harshing on the corp-rat oil companies for the high cost at the pump, the outrageous profits they were pulling in, and how they were having a difficult time getting a foothold on the market... it occurred to me that the cost of Bio at the pump matched the cost of good ol' #2 dollar for dollar as the prices jumped up.

I was forced to say to myself - Wait a minute! The cost of crude oil rising should have had little to do with the cost of Bio other than shipping. Especially B99. I can see some increase with the blends, shipping and production costs (energy) but not dollar for dollar.

They (independant - non oil company owned) are just as bad as the corp-rat oil companies. It's not about the environment, it's not about renewable sources of fuel. It's all about the Benjamins.

If they had maintained 2006 pricing, and gotten a grip on quality control, then they would have grabbed a huge market share, and the reliability/available components for keeping the fuel clean and damage prevention to the fuel system would have come out of the woodwork.

 

[HBarlow]

I heard a report on radio yesterday that a big producer of ethanol in NC filed for bankruptcy protection in NC yesterday. That's after being put in business by believers in the current government with guaranteed federal loans, tax incentives, blah, blah, blah. It has happened with other ethanol producers. Even after being bought and paid for by unwilling taxpayers there is insufficient demand for bogus products like enthanol and bio diesel for them to stay in business.

Ethanol prices are high and rising becauuse of the cost of corn which has been driven up because of artificial demand placed on corn by converting it from food to fuel.

The fundamental ideas that have created solar power, wind power, and other so-called renewable fuel sources are bogus. They can only exist with taxpayer subsidies.

 

[guldam]

I burn biodiesel in my truck, and it is not easy to find due to not enough companies selling the stuff. In the San Francisco area I think there are two fairly large BioDiesel producers selling to various stations, co-ops, etc.



I have talked to one of those producers on a regular basis, and I was told that the used fryer oil that this BioDiesel is made from is valuable not only to BD producers but also to the Chinese, and to companies making live stock feed. This has driven up the price of used fryer oil to . 50 cents a gallon or more. More companies buying the stuff = more demand = higher prices for all.



This particular company picks up oil from restaurants, and offers to obtain the sludge from grease traps, and even sewers. Production of the BD requires settling, drying, filtering, processing, washing again, and drying again, and final filtering. Not all used fryer grease is usable for BD, and so there is left over stuff that has to be dealt with. Also BD is produced using fairly expensive methanol, which goes up and down according to the cost of dino oil, and other chemicals, and water. All the machinery runs on BD or electricity so there is that cost, as well as the cost of obtaining the used oil, paying people to get it, produce it etc.



All that being said, I paid $4. 29 a gallon for Dino Diesel a few weeks back when I couldn't get BD. The following week I paid $3. 90 a gallon for BD. My truck is very happy on this extremely high quality BD that exceeds ASTM standards, and the exhaust smells better, is less polluting, and it makes me happy.



Go to a real BD plant and you'll see that it's a sophisticated production facility, and you'll see that it's labor intensive.



Of course I have made good quality BD in my own driveway, so it actually is possible to greatly lower your fuel costs if you are willing to spend the time and effort. Time is a problem for me, so I pack up the truck with 5gallon cube containers once every month or two, fill them and the truck with BD from Sirona Fuels in Oakland, and rattle my way back home.



GulDam

When the Bio reps were harshing on the corp-rat oil companies for the high cost at the pump, the outrageous profits they were pulling in, and how they were having a difficult time getting a foothold on the market... it occurred to me that the cost of Bio at the pump matched the cost of good ol' #2 dollar for dollar as the prices jumped up.

 

[1972JohnBoy]

Shuttered Ethanol Plant

I heard a report on radio yesterday that a big producer of ethanol in NC filed for bankruptcy protection in NC yesterday. That's after being put in business by believers in the current government with guaranteed federal loans, tax incentives, blah, blah, blah. It has happened with other ethanol producers. Even after being bought and paid for by unwilling taxpayers there is insufficient demand for bogus products like enthanol and bio diesel for them to stay in business.



Ethanol prices are high and rising becauuse of the cost of corn which has been driven up because of artificial demand placed on corn by converting it from food to fuel.



The fundamental ideas that have created solar power, wind power, and other so-called renewable fuel sources are bogus. They can only exist with taxpayer subsidies.

As a matter of fact there is an ethanol plant that is brand new that is sitting shuttered up going on three years that was financed 100% with federal government GRANT money in my hometown. The "businessman" that built this facility has had several other failed endeavors at home here. Rumor is that if you you have the connections to procure some of that free money you don't have to build a successful business, just build something, pay yourself very well in the building phase, file bankruptcy and move on to the next idea.

 

[HBarlow]

Its the same with wind generators. Out here in west Texas in cotton farming country we have a lot of open space and the wind blows most of the time. A big firm from Chicago, probably not a coincidence, has been building federally subsidized wind generator fields all over the region.

Not one single wind generator would be built or installed if not for taxpayer funding. The entire industry is, IMO, a fraud that makes a few wealthy and lines the pockets of many farmers who own the land. In 20 years the generators will all be worn out and the companies that built and erected them will have vanished. The taxpayers will be paying to tear all that crap down and dispose of it.

Just one more scam on the taxpayers.

 

[guldam]

Senate vote marks start of end for ethanol subsidies

Senate vote marks start of end for ethanol subsidies | Reuters



Senate vote marks start of end for ethanol subsidies



Reuters) - The Senate voted overwhelmingly on Thursday to eliminate billions of dollars in support for the U. S. ethanol industry, sending a strong message that the era of big taxpayer support for biofuels is ending.



The 73-27 vote may ultimately be symbolic since the White House has vowed not to repeal ethanol subsidies fully and the bill the repeal language is attached to is not expected to make it into law. But it underscores the growing desperation to find savings in a budget crisis that is forcing both sides of the aisle to consider sacrificing once-sacred government programs.



etc, etc, etc... click the link for the rest of the article.



Both sides of the aisle like subsidies. Whoever or whichever Corporation fills up the pockets or the coffers of the re-election campaigns of either side gets a break.



As far as ethanol or BioDiesel being bogus, the end of easy oil is gone. And any kind of new approach or experimentation, or invention is probably good for the future.



My truck loves well made BioDiesel, and that's good enough for me.



GulDam

 

[Mhannink]

i think bio diesel will have its place. its rather effiecent to take waste material and turn it into something useful. i used to think i had biodiesel figured out, and was all for it. now there is simply too much conflicting "evidence" for me to say one way or the other. however i do think that bio diesel will have a niche in the market. what will be interesting to see in the next few years is the viabilaty of bio diesel from alage. from what i understand; which is little on the subject, its been worked on and studied since the carter admin. they are still no where near the mass production stage. still testing its effects on things, and infastructure i think too. one of the programs i have seen on it, they seem to going about this topic very thoroughly, why i do not know. from the looks of it though it could be a rather viable alternative to fossil fuel. the process is simple. grow alage in water; alage doubles its mass within days, drain water, harvest alage, then there are a couple steps to take from alage to fuel, if i remeber correctly they are simple and inexpensive, then distribute the fuel through our infastructure. the nice thing is apparently ;according to researchers, the fuel is almost identical in chemical makeup as dino diesel.

 

[HBarlow]

If consumers actually wanted biodiesel the private sector would produce it and market it at a profit. That is the beauty of our free market capitalism.

The ONLY reason biodiesel is available at the pump is because government has mandated it with the force of law and taken money from Americans who don't even own or want to own a diesel engine without their permission or agreement.

If government stops subsidizing corn farmers to grow corn for biodiesel and agricultural entities to produce ethanol or other products it will all evaporate into memories of another failed stupid goverment program.

 

[BGlidewell]

I think it is unsustainable at least at this point. That's why it is tied into regular oil. You could NOT grow it and use it to grow more of it.

 

[Mhannink]

I think it is unsustainable at least at this point. That's why it is tied into regular oil. You could NOT grow it and use it to grow more of it.

biodiesel is sustainable if i remember my enviro lectures, ethanol is not. the problem is, biodiesel is a marginaly positive net product. i think though that mixing it in a blend with fossil fuel might be very sustainable and depending on the sources cost effective. it would also reduce the use of foreign oil albeit a very small amount maybe 1%. i think biodiesel will find a niche in the market. if they ever get this idea of algae to diesel fuel figured out the prospects will be a lot better for sustainable bio fuels. even then the cost of fossil fuel will have to stay high before its cost effective. fossil fuel is the cheapest source of energy we have. thats why we have been using it unchanged for 150 years now.

 

[Hootguy]

i think i'll just keep making my own BD at 40 cents a gallon,,i'm quite happy to fill up my truck for about 10 bucks,,,so all the biodiesel naysayers can keep paying $150. 00 to fill up their trucks and swear when they put in the nozzle as i drive by smilling and drivng around in my dually just for fun,,,LOL...

It's so stupidly easy to make i dont understand why more people dont try it,,,yakes me about an hour to set up a batch and walk away,,,

Of course you need a couple of good oil sources,,but their not that hard to get if you any kind of decent personality,,

 

[HBarlow]

Most of us don't make or use Biodiesel for several reasons. One, it can't be used in ISB6. 7 engines, probably can't be used successfully long term in any HPCR ISB5. 9 without causing problems, and personally I don't limit my Dodge operating range to one half of one tank of fuel in any direction. No thanks to vegetable oil.

 

[Hootguy]

for one thing biodiesel is NOT straight vegetable oil,,,it CAN and HAS been used in the 6. 7's and 5. 9 HPCR engines,,,a friend of mine has over 150,000 miles or running bio without any issues,,,no more than the dino guys since the hpcr system is such crap compared to the old P pump,,LOL. . but eveybody allready knows that,,

I do agree with you it's better in a mix,,,most of my friends running in HPCR engines and even the old 24V do mix,,usually 25% regular diesel,,,and yes we cant run it in the winter,,at least in my part of the world,,but they sure love it when their fill ups cost a third of what it should,,

I'm lucky,,the old 100% reliable 12V trucks with the P pump can run pretty much anything you want as far as fuel with no problems,,,mine has 400,000 miles of every fuel you could possibly imagine without a single problem,,even have the original injectors in,,,but i'm honestly probably due for injectors soon i think,,,even in the winter,,i blend my cheap supply of Jet fuel with straight canola oil and no problems until 0 degrees,,,then i top up with winter diesel...

I am curious as to what you mean by "half a tank in any direction"??????

 

[Tractorat]

I believe that a lot of the biodiesel, at least that made here in washington, gets shipped to europe where they use a lot more diesel than we do. Thats one reason why diesel is more expensive here. They ship us gas, and we ship them diesel.

 

[HBarlow]

for one thing biodiesel is NOT straight vegetable oil,,,it CAN and HAS been used in the 6. 7's and 5. 9 HPCR engines,,,a friend of mine has over 150,000 miles or running bio without any issues,,,no more than the dino guys since the hpcr system is such crap compared to the old P pump,,LOL. . but eveybody allready knows that,,
I do agree with you it's better in a mix,,,most of my friends running in HPCR engines and even the old 24V do mix,,usually 25% regular diesel,,,and yes we cant run it in the winter,,at least in my part of the world,,but they sure love it when their fill ups cost a third of what it should,,
I'm lucky,,the old 100% reliable 12V trucks with the P pump can run pretty much anything you want as far as fuel with no problems,,,mine has 400,000 miles of every fuel you could possibly imagine without a single problem,,even have the original injectors in,,,but i'm honestly probably due for injectors soon i think,,,even in the winter,,i blend my cheap supply of Jet fuel with straight canola oil and no problems until 0 degrees,,,then i top up with winter diesel...
I am curious as to what you mean by "half a tank in any direction"??????

Use of biodiesel in an ISB6. 7 in any percentage greater than 5% will result in a voided warranty. The owner's manual warns against it. I take that as ample evidence that Cummins and Dodge believe it will harm their products.

Internet websites are full of wild claims of 80 mpg, use of nothing but 100% vegetable oil, and other crazed claims. I discount and ignore most of them.

What I meant was about 99. 9% of Dodge owners do not have or wish to have a source of vegetable oil to burn in their trucks and that tiny percent of owners like yourself who do can only fill up your tank at home.

So if the full tank fuel range of your truck is 500 miles you can only travel 250 miles from home then you have to turn around and return home to fill up again.

 

[HBarlow]

If biodiesel was cost effective to produce for use as a motor transportation fuel and was desired by a sufficient number of owners it would be commercially available all over the United States with no government involvement.

It is a simple matter to learn if a product is economically viable? Does the free market produce it at a profit? Would it exist if government did not take money from taxpayers to subsidize it?

The free market works every time it is allowed to work without government interference. Some ambitious entrepreneur would team up with some greedy, rich capitalist (the words of a few, not mine) and they would produce and market biodiesel if it could be made and sold profitably. They have not done so therefore it is simple to see that it is not economically viable.

 

[Tractorat]

K got a kick out of the latest one. The university of washington just got a grant to help develop making gas out of trees. We dont log here anymore because there aren't enough trees.

 

[Hootguy]

Harvey i think you are mistakenly confusing biodiesel with straight veg oil users,,,,biodiesel IS NOT vegetable oil,,,i travel all over the planet with my truck,,,it gets regular diesel when i'm traveling to various racetracks,,

Biodiesel will never be allowed to hit the market in ANY form,,,big oil will never allow it and they rule the show,,,and Dodge will only allow the percentage of bio that the governement tell them to,,,that and the fact that if truck were made to run on mostly biodiesel,,they would last forever,,,and they sure as hell dont want that,,,

I have quite a few friends who run high blends of biodiesel in HPCR trucks,,,,with thousands of miles on them without issues,,,if anything i have more friends WITH injector and pump issues who run REGULAR diesel,,,

As much as you refuse to believe the virtues of biodiesel because you're scared for your engine,, if everyone was affraid of risk,,,we would have never walked on the moon,,,we'd still be heating with a woodstove,, even riding around in horse and buggies,,

so just because your affraid of a little risk,,,dont knock those of us who arent affraid to experiment,,,we night come up with something that might help you someday too,,,

You get nowhere without experimentation,,,i was told for years i would have all kinds of problems because of my experimental fuels,,,well 400,000 miles later,,,not a single problem,,,funny thing is,,most naysayers are the ones who have never tried it themselves,,,they just repeat what they read on the internet,,which doesnt help anybody,,

 

[HBarlow]

I've been thinking all these years that corn and soybeans were vegetables.

How do you think the companies that drill, produce, and refine crude oil to produce gasoline and diesel fuel can prevent consumers from shifting to vegetable oil if they wish to?

The US has a free market economy. We generally purchase the products we prefer.

 

[Hootguy]

simple,,the oil companies pretty rule what the goverment doea when it comes to fuel,,,it's what THEY say that goes,,and not your goverment,,and big oil DOES NOT want biodiesel to become poplular OR in demand,,,,i'm sure you can understand why...

The manufacturers dont want it because it would make the engines and fuel system last too long and THEY would loose money... the same reason why GM took back all those electric cars form their owners and crushed them ALL without giving the owners a chance to buy them,,,,because IF electric vehicules would have got too popular GM would have had to close half they're dealership for lack of maintenace and repair work,,,they're just not much to go wrong with them,,,and that was directly from a GM exectutive back then,,,all the owners wanted to buy them,,,but GM wouldnt let them have it,,,think they were scared????,,,and they had the nerve to say on the news,,that no one wanted them,,,so the owners got a petition with thousands of names of people who wanted them and GM got themselves a big black eye on that one,,even Toyota's electric RAV4 version is worth more now then when they were new,,,so it's a pretty safe bet that people want them,,,and now the Big manufacturer are bending to the will of the people because THEY HAVE NO CHOICE ANYMORE,,but you can bet that the oil companies wont let that go without a fight,,

Biodiesel is an excellent fuel,,,a lot better than regular diesel,,,but it will NEVER become common,,,North America will have to tell those enviromentalist to go screw themselves and drill and get our OWN oil,,,we have more than OPEC in our OWN ground,,,all we have to do is take it,,,so why dont we???,,,because the US and Canada wont until the economy gets so bad that they HAVE TOO,,,to get things going again... so we can stop being ****ed by OPEC,,,,hopefully you guys will get a decent President in the whitehouse next time around,,and not a good for nothing looser like you have now,,,let's get some balls back into goverment,,,,