03 Will Only Start With Ether

[Bloomy]

03 Will Only Start With Ether Help!

Howdy all,



Gal that works for me has an 03 2500 48re stock truck. It will only start when it gets a small shot of ether, then it runs fine. Checked the lift pump pressure and it was zero. It has the pump in the tank. So I automatically presumed the lift pump was bad. They put an OEM replacement in it, and same thing. Won't start without ether and only 1 psi of pressure. Once you shut if off, if you let it sit for more than a few minutes (three or so) it will not start again. Immediately try and restart and it will with a few extra seconds of cranking (less than 5 seconds) Lets say the lift pumps are good and she didn't buy a bad one, what other options are there to look at. Pressure relief valve or anything similar? Tested the lift pump pressure at the CP3. Thanks for all the help as always.



Thomas

 

[JJPage]

If there is still only 1 psi lift pump pressure, then you still have a bad lift pump or one heck of a restriction... Has the OEM lift pump been removed from the rear of the fuel filter canister?

The reason it will not start without ether, is that the injector solenoids will not fire unless the ecm sees a minimum of 3500 psi. That means either the CP3 is not being fed enough volume(because lift pump is not providing), or there is a leak that is preventing the rail to maintain pressure needed to fire injectors. That leak could be internal to the CP3, could be the COV on the CP3, the PRV on the rail, loose cross tubes, or one or more faulty injectors. Get the lift pump working first.

 

[kwoodson]

My 03 did the same thing at 80,000 miles, bought the injector line cap from Dodge, checked each injector until the faulty one was located, new injector problem solved. Now with 235,000 started the same thing, again checked each injector, all injector's checked ok, checked the starter and it was getting hot quick, replaced starter, which now turns the engine alot faster while cranking, problem solved.

 

[moparme]

In reading all the threads about the '03's and having starting issues (only because I now have the same prob. ) Started taking longer crank time to start a week or 2 ago, to not starting at all this morning. Makes me wonder about what was just said about the Starter or maybe batteries. I have orig batts in mine ('03 148,000) and orig injectors (that I know of). I may replace them 1st to see what happens. I know I need them, Right? Just have read alot about the procedures on these "no Start Threads" thats all. Would that be a good start? I will try anything and everything I have read about, but wondered if it continually cranks slower, does that cause low pressure in the pump which does not fire the injestors?

Thanks Bryan

 

[kwoodson]

The engine must turn fast enough for the crankshaft position sensor to send a signal, and the injector pump to build the proper pressure. If the starter is pulling to much current, it will take amperage from the ECM, which will not tell the injectors to fire.

 

[moparme]

Got that. I will be getting batteries this wkend and will try some of these, one at a time.

there was a thread "Had to be towed" that I may try those steps 1st, may get me to where I want to be. A start is all i need. Willing to learn these monsters, cuz I love my truck. Thanks kwoodson

 

[p-Bar]

My bet is on injector(s)

 

[JJPage]

My bet is on injector(s)

You may be right, If I was going to bet... and I had 1 psi of lift pump pressure... and I am a dealer... I am selling you 6 new injectors, then I will repair the problem and add 25%/75% to the bill... reason for edit, should have been, 300% added to invoice

 

[Bloomy]

Thanks for the replies. I'm also leaning towards the injector(s). I have a test cap coming to test them and see what I can come up with there. Won't be able to work on the truck until early next week probably.



Thomas

 

[JJPage]

Bloomy, forgive me, I was being sarcastic, I do not believe your injectors are bad at this point. Too often, injectors are replaced, and, in the process of installation, the real problem is corrected... . so folks believe, "it was my injectors"... .



I had a very reputable dealer/shop, willing to replace all my injectors under warranty, all that was really wrong was loose cross tubes... 2 years ago, all is well.



So, your cross tubes are loose... . hard / long crank times. / "Let's put new injectors in", In the process, you have to re-torque cross tubes in the correct installation, now it starts like it was new.



So many times injectors are replaced for no good reason, sometimes it is injectors, but with a small amount of effort, you can positively narrow down the real problem and correct the issue.



Always re-torque cross connect tubes first, it is easy, and if you are at all mechanically inclined, it is free.

 

[Bloomy]

Thanks JJPage. Can you give me the quick version of torquing the cross tubes. I have plenty of mechanical ability. I can build a fairly spectacular 12 valve puller, but not nearly the time on common rails.

Thanks
Thomas

 

[JJPage]

Thanks JJPage. Can you give me the quick version of torquing the cross tubes. I have plenty of mechanical ability. I can build a fairly spectacular 12 valve puller, but not nearly the time on common rails.

Thanks
Thomas

Here is a complete "injector install procedure with photo's" from one of our great members. You can see how simple (except for number six) it really is.
https://www.turbodieselregister.com...148621-injector-install-procedure-photos.html

PS: you do not need those special miller tools to simply re-torque the cross tubes, because you are not actually removing the injectors. Just remove the intake horn for easy access, remove the individual injector lines then re-torque the tubes and put it back together. Go to the eleventh page of that thread, it will show the connector tube locking nut, simply re-torque all six to 37 ft lbs and your done. If you find them loose, you have found your leak, because they will leak where they meet the injector body, you will never see it because the leaking fuel will follow a path in the head to the return line at the back of the head.
Jess

 

[Bloomy]

Thanks for the help on the cross tubes. Went through the process this afternoon to re-torque them. To my complete astonishment (as none of them felt remotely loose) the truck now starts! Hopefully it will continue. Will check again tomorrow. The owner of the truck is ecstatic! Still reading 1psi on the fuel pressure gauge, but haven't done anything to address that. Going to pull the new pump and get it replaced just to see. The old fuel pump by the filter is not their. Fuel filter itself is fine too. Will continue on that part though. Thanks again.



Thomas



Thomas

 

[JJPage]

Thanks for the help on the cross tubes. Went through the process this afternoon to re-torque them. To my complete astonishment (as none of them felt remotely loose) the truck now starts! Hopefully it will continue. Will check again tomorrow. The owner of the truck is ecstatic! Still reading 1psi on the fuel pressure gauge, but haven't done anything to address that. Going to pull the new pump and get it replaced just to see. The old fuel pump by the filter is not their. Fuel filter itself is fine too. Will continue on that part though. Thanks again.

Thomas

Thomas

The "not so good news is", once the leak has started between the cross tube and injector body, that high pressure fuel(25k+) will carve a path through the tube's end. Now, you have reduced that path by re-torquing, so it will be ok for a while. The best fix is to install new cross tubes... .

As far as being astonished, my truck had the whole Dave Smith Motors Service Dept astonished. They wanted to install all new injectors, under warranty, 280ml return fuel @ 30 sec... . I had about 7k miles on my F1 injectors, I knew in my heart they were not bad, because the truck had been running beautiful, up and until that point.

We were on the road, headed to T-Falls, I called bs, they agreed to check the tq on the cross tubes, some were only finger tight... ... . This is when I decided I would never let anyone else work on my truck. This was a trusted(at the time) shop.

My truck has run sensationally since, the minimal time the tubes were loose, caused minor damage(maybe). I will purchase new tubes before the next injector maintenance.

 

[cerberusiam]

The "not so good news is", once the leak has started between the cross tube and injector body, that high pressure fuel(25k+) will carve a path through the tube's end.

The thing with that is if the leak is bad enough to harm the tube the truck won't start and seldom gets enough usage to really damage the tube. What frequently happens is the end of the tube is slightly deformed from incorrect installation, or, there will be fine pressure ridges caused by the previous TQ seqence that never align right.



Taking a scotch bright pad or even 600 grit sandpaper and lightly cleaning the mating surface so it is even will solve a lot of the problems of the tube holding. Close examination will show if there is any deformation of the tip and then it needs replaced.



A lot of guys are also using the loctite blue on the cross over tube threads to stop them from loosening due to the vibrations.

 

[moparme]

No Start findings

The engine must turn fast enough for the crankshaft position sensor to send a signal, and the injector pump to build the proper pressure. If the starter is pulling to much current, it will take amperage from the ECM, which will not tell the injectors to fire.

Ok, I replaced the batteries, and it does spin over alot quicked but to no avail, no start. went on to check the PRV w/business card between banjo bolt and fitting, cranked and saw no fuel from the area. ruled out the PRV. Went on to check the FCA by pulling the electrical plug on the rear of the unit and cranked it over, still a no start. At this point, had a neighbor/friend help me with pulling the codes with his scanner. found a P0633-Skim Key Not Prog in PCM, P0480-Cooling Fan 1 control circuit Open (low speed relay) and P0251 (UP44) Fuel Valve Feed Back Circuit. I removed the fuel filter housing top and drained the fuel till empty, turned on the key to see the lift pump fill the canister, and how fast. Did not take long to fill at all (5-6 sec. ). Replaced canister top and started thinking. PRV? With the code P0251 thrown, had to be it! I had tested this at first and thought I ruled it out right? Well, instead of taking it loose again, I pinched the rubber portion of this return line from the PRV which leads to the CP3. Cranked it over and it started right off but was a little noisy. Shut it down removed the clamp from the return line, cranked again and fired off again. I let it run 10min, hopped in and took a test drive. Ran like it should, real responsive and sounded like it had before the no start condition. It sat for at least 5hrs before I started it again. It fired up as if nothing happened. So what did I really accomplish here?

Stuck PRV? Bad PRV? or would it be in the CP3. I am removing the prv tomorrow to inspect, and possibly clean the seat. Would the PRV act like this? I just feel lucky to have had a no start condition right in my driveway, than on the road or in a parking lot somewhere. Would like to be sure I am not just putting a bandaid on something that will fail again.

 

[Mhannink]

i have not read all the posts so someone may have said this. first, check the batteries, replace the fuel filter (look at the fuel quality too), and tighten/check the injector lines. then test lift pump pressure. if pressure is good, batteries are good, and the fuel filter has been replaced, it should start. if not then look at injectors. start with the simple easy stuff first, and work up to the more difficult/expensive parts.



i would definately be looking at the batteries first. if they are not up to snuff it can cause all kinds of weird problems, and the more computerized the engine is the worse the problems get. i know on the early 24v corrosion in the battery cables led to any number of problems mainly with the trans shifting. the reason being the cummins computers and the dodge computer would not talk to each other because of mixed signals.



next replace the fuel filter. i dont care if its new or not, just change it. this is the most likely spot for a restriction that would cause a no start condition. also look at the fuel in the bowl, see if there are any issues such as algae. once the filter is replaced and you know the batteries are good, check lift pump pressure at the cp3. if pressure is good than likely the problem is fixed, and it should start. if not its probaly another bad lift pump. to verify get a can of diesel and plumb it in with a small lift pump to supply pressure and see if that fixes the problem.



it would also be a good idea to check and or tighten the injector hard lines and really all the lines on the fuel rail, and the crossover tubes.



after all of that, if it still doesnt start, then it could be injectors, or well a number of things. come back here and we can help figure it out.

 

[moparme]

Thanks. I read this place like a manual, and it has helped me to understand alot about my 1st Cummins truck. My lift pump was new Oct of last year as I changed out the old one due to it leaking (did not stop working) I kept it as a last ditch spare, bu feel mine is good. I dont have gauges in yet and dont really know best place on the lines for them either.

 

[cerberusiam]

P0251 CP3 Pump Regulator Control



That would a code for the FCA not the PRV. Since that code is coming up replace the FCA as it is impossible to tell if they are bad. Might want to consider retorquing the cross over tubes also. With the time factor they can work loose and cause hard\no starts.



Pinching the rubber line does nothing for the PRV or any other part of the HP fuel system. That is all a return circuit tied into injector return, PRV return, and CP-3 return.

 

[TCDiesel]

Don't get your hope to high,Many times the tubes may be re-tighten just x weeks later the no start is back. My money is on it will be back with in 2 months. By the Way CR injector took a 10% increase on Nov 1.