Archived 12-valve: no cranking = no driving

[purdytj]

Hi all,

My '98 12-valve has acted a bit funny lately and today completely died: I don't drive it that often as I walk to work. I drive it at least 1x per week. For the last 5+ weeks when I try to start her up, the cranking has been getting weaker and weaker. I've even had the engine block heater plugged in while in my 50 degree garage as I wondered if the cold was affecting the truck. Today the cranking worked 2 times (once to pull out of the garage, hook the utility trailer, go to dump with leaves; twice when I took the second load). Then after I unloaded leaves at the dump the second time she would not crank. I should not have turned her off like I did for the first trip! I had to be humbly pulled home by a 1/2 ton Ford. Embarrassing. But I am thankful to not need to pay a towing bill.



I checked the typical "no start" issue listed in the Geno's Garage catalog, but the fuel shutoff solenoid is working fine - I didn't suspect that was the problem anyway. The solenoid shaft does plunge upward when attempting to start. The cranking had been getting weaker and weaker... with a slow "whaa, whaa, whaa" before it fired up with a "run-un-un-un" of power. Once the engine had started up the battery gauge in the truck quickly went to 14 volts. When cranking it was below 14, but still within the range of the gauge.



On my voltmeter I'm getting about 12. 5. I pulled out and had the batteries tested at an auto parts store and they are fine (volts and cold-cranking amps were tested), which were new in June. The alternator was replaced in June too. I was paranoid so I tried new batteries anyway since the batteries I have now are Rayovac and I've seen bad reviews on them (had to buy them in a pinch this summer). I tried brand new Optima Red tops and still a "click" of the electronics in the cab and the fuel solenoid engaging, but no turn over.



Given that the starting issue progressively got worse and it seemed to die a slow and painful death, I don't think it is an electrical connection issue. All wires and connections seem in tact when I checked them. I'm just a shadetree mechanic, but I wonder if it is the starter motor.



Thoughts? All suggestions are appreciated. Let me know if clarifications are needed. I'd like to hear some opinions before I pull the starter motor off.

T. J.

 

[BigPapa]

I'd say it's the starter. You can try tapping on the starter with a hammer or heavy wrench and see if it will start. If it doesn't start before tapping but does after tapping you need to replace or rebuild it. Don't think "Oh, it's good now and if it fails I'll just tap it again", your on borrowed time. Rebuilding may be your cheapest route if you have a rebuilder in your area.



You'll need a 12-point 10mm socket, several different length extensions, a 12mm, 15mm(I think!) and 8mm box end wrench, and maybe a cheater pipe for the ratchet and 10mm wrench. Disconnect BOTH batteries so there is no current to the starter. At the starter, disconnect the cable to the battery (I think it's the 15mm wrench) and the small solenoid wire (8mm wrench).



Two of the bolts are easily visible and accessible. The tough one is on top of the starter. Reach around on top of the starter and you can feel it. You want the extensions just long enough that the ratchet will clear the end of the starter. They may be very tight if they've never been removed. If so, try tightening them a bit to break them loose and then try backing them out. You may need a cheater pipe like I mentioned.



I would highly suggest you install a set of Larry B's HD contacts available from Geno's, even if you get a new or rebuilt starter.

 

[purdytj]

Thank you so much! I'll give that a try. I appreciate the step-by-step feedback and I think I have most of those tools. I do know the cable from battery to starter is a 15mm because I tried to see if that connection was corroded.
I'll work on her tomorrow. Thanks again!

 

[BigPapa]

The key is the 12-point 10mm socket. The bolts are 12-point, not standard hex head.



Had a buddy call me once telling me somebody had rounded off the heads on all three of his starter bolts. He was trying to use a 6-point socket.



Seems like the extensions I've used were a 6" plus a 3".

 

[GAmes]

.

I would highly suggest you install a set of Larry B's HD contacts available from Geno's, even if you get a new or rebuilt starter.

My original starter lasted over 600k miles, with one set of Larry B contacts. http://fostertruck.com/dodge/ Do not waste your money on a cheap auto parts rebuild unless you like replacing them on a regular basis. I found that new Denso starters come with oversized contacts, BTW. Replacing the contacts in your old starter is a 20 minute job after the starter is removed. Don't lose the little steel ball that is inside the solenoid.

 

[purdytj]

she made it into the garage

Thank you for your replies.

I did tap on the starter a bit and after some low, "wha - wha - wha" the truck did start up. Once it was running, fine as before. I moved it to the garage.

By the way, I have about 220,000 miles.



GAmes, do you mean that all I need to rebuild the starter are the contacts, or should I get the starter rebuild kit? Thank you for the link!!!

Thank you!

T. J.



This is from the website...

SuperSize Starter Solenoid Contacts & Starter Brushe



Super Size Starter solenoid contacts have approximately 90% more contact area than stock. Designed to carry twice the voltage load for easier starting and last years longer. Our Super Contacts Fit perfectly and are for replacement of sticking and clicking stock starter contacts in 1989 to 2006 Cummins powered Dodge Ram trucks. (for V10 engine click here) Is your starter clicking a few times and won't crank? Or worse yet, sticking on? It's very likely worn solenoid contacts. These trucks use a very well built gear reduction starter. Your starter contains two contacts that are usually the only parts in these starters that cause any problems. Usually only one contact gets badly burned but we recommend replacing both contacts and the plunger while you're in there. Printed INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS are also included with all contacts. More info? CLICK here!!!! Here is an exploded view of the solenoid and parts.



Replacement brushes. Denso starters use a very good, long lasting brush material. It is common for these brushes to last 200,000 miles without a problem, although sometimes in trucks used off road, water intrusion can cause early wear. Common symptoms are slow cranking but check your batteries and cables first. Brushes should be replaced when there is less than 2mm clearance between pigtail and brush holder, in other words if the brush can only move 2mm more toward the commutator when wearing.

Part#R90SS $22. 95 Solenoid contact set for 1989-2006 Dodge diesel, contains 2 SuperSize contacts and 1 plunger for Cummins.



Part#8203 $42. 95 New Brush plate with ground brushes installed, shown above, 1994-2006 Dodge Ram/Cummins. (some soldering required)

Part# 8250 $59. 00 Easy Starter Rebuild Kit, Includes solenoid kit, brushes, wrench and instructions. 94-06 only

Part#8216 $31. 95 Set (4) brushes only, with screw on pigtail. No soldering required, fit starters on 1989-1993 Dodge Cummins

 

[GAmes]

I believe all you need are the contacts. Replacing the brushes is not an easy job for a novice, and if the brushes are worn out the armature probably needs turning too. When mine died for good the brushes still had some life but the bearings were shot. For starters (no pun intended) I would go with the contacts & plunger kit. Quick and easy job. If they don't fix the problem you can always order the other parts or a new Denso.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Purdy,



What Games is telling you is good advice. In my experience, I've found pulling the starter off and having it tested at the parts store is a good indicator of how bad the bearings and brushes/armatures are, and it has to come out anyway to change the contacts. I now have an amp meter I use to test mine, after replacing the contacts. If it's too high, I take it and exchange it. If it's just the contacts, it's a cheap fix. For some, I suggest just getting a new starter. It's a cheap investment compared to the price of a new truck, and they'll usually run a good while. I've had good luck with the Orielly's Ultima Select starters..... They're a bit higher, but I've not had any comebacks. I'd prefer reman'd Denso, as Games suggests, but we don't have anyone around here that sells them. I can get them from TruckPro or Inland, but they're WAYYY higher, there, @ $300.

 

[purdytj]

Hi all,

ARGH!!! I replaced the contacts and plunger with a set from Larry B's. Same issue is occuring. I took some video so you can actually hear what I hear. It was 50 degrees in the garage when I tried with the starter installed again.

It seems to be an electrical problem as opposed to a fuel delivery problem. It just cranks so slow, then picks up a bit.

I don't trust driving it as I was stranded previously. Banging on the starter with a hammer allowed me to start up the truck to get into the garage (see previous post).



Help!

T. J.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0sjPdwLC1D4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[BigPapa]

You need to replace or rebuild the starter as I stated earlier. Replacing the contacts in the solenoid will not fix worn out brushes or armature.

 

[HHhuntitall]

You need to replace or rebuild the starter as I stated earlier. Replacing the contacts in the solenoid will not fix worn out brushes or armature.

Unfortunately, that's what it sounds like. If the batteries have been tested, and test good, and all contacts are cleaned and good, there is little else it can be.....

 

[purdytj]

OK, thank you so much everyone. I hope the video helped.
I'll order the part from Larry B's. You can see that I'm a novice. I now fully understand the difference between the solenoid and the starter brushes.

http://fostertruck.com/dodge/
Part#8203 $42. 95 New Brush plate with ground brushes installed, shown above, 1994-2006 Dodge Ram/Cummins. (some soldering required)

 

[BigPapa]

If you're going to replace the brushes yourself you need to make sure that the armature is OK where the brushes ride. If it's not straight and smooth it will need refinishing.

 

[purdytj]

If you're going to replace the brushes yourself you need to make sure that the armature is OK where the brushes ride. If it's not straight and smooth it will need refinishing.

Could I use emery paper to clean up the armature? If it is not straight, can refinishing be done by an electrician (like turning brake rotors)?

 

[BigPapa]

I don't know, purdy. I'd say check with a rebuilder.



I'm in the motorcycle/ATV business. On ATV starters the brushes will wear the armature down in the center of where they ride. I have "refinished" a few of them by chucking the armature up in a drill press and using a large flat file to "turn" the worn area back down flat. If it's worn a lot this will not work because the brushes will stick out of the "holder" too far and can come out.



I've never attempted to rebuild or put brushes in an automotive starter. Our local rebuilder is good and cheap enough I've never desired to attempt it.

 

[purdytj]

Well, the starter brushes have been replaced. The truck now starts better than it ever has since I've owned it!
Also, I just cleaned up the armature as it had 14 years of grime coated on it. It appeared to be true and round.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
TJP

 

[BigPapa]

Good for you TJP! I may have to try that next time.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Good job!! You're taking to it like a duck to water. Not as scary as you first thought, eh?