Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Remington 5r

[HHhuntitall]

Just as a tip, if you're using larger grain powders, like RL15, the RCBS automated scales are pretty dang accurate. I used to check every few rounds when match loading, but now I don't even bother. With a standard deviation of 5-15 fps on 10 round groups, I think it's pretty darn close. Now, if I could just dope the wind that close.....

Rainy days are my reloading time. I can't do much outside when it's raining, so I reload. My machine shop isn't insulated, so without a lathe at this point, it's useless to go in there, and my race shop is now my Dad's private rifle work shop, so I invade every chance I get. It's usually a race to see who can get to the presses first on a rainy day.... I usually win, as I have more motivation.....

As for the progressive presses, they are pretty good on handgun ammo, but I've had mixed results on rifle. The powder throw is not very accurate when you're trying to dump 20+ grains of ball powder.... I did turn and thread a funnel port so I can drop my own charges, and with the RCBS powder dispenser, it's helped a great deal when loading with the progressive press. It's still pretty slow, so I usually just single pump 'em, anyway. I don't rattle off 1100 rounds a day unless I'm running a tactical course, and that's been a long time, so the ammo was much cheaper then.... I like the slower pace, these days. Work usually has me stressing to move fast, so I want to be able to relax and maximize my accuracy..... I've got a "little" ammo loaded myself. In Texas I'd be considered well prepared.... In most other places, I've always made the neighbors nervous....

My wife's aunt lives in Westminster, North of Denver, basically a suburb. She's the best part of the family, IMO, so I make special efforts to see her. She has some pretty weird neighbors....

 

[Sticks]

Lee's Powder drop with the Micrometer charge bars is pretty darn accurate on ball powder (AA2230). I'll do a few drops and weigh them, all .1gr of my target, then a 10 drop bulk weigh and the average is still within my target by .05gr. Verified on 2 different digital scales (not exactly known for accuracy). I do that procedure every 200 rounds. My statements of being +/- .2 gr is being really extreme for variance since I don't weigh every drop.

Hopefully I'll be able to afford to take a long range course in the next few years. I really need to learn that aspect so I can properly operate that MK12, and maybe a bolt gun (come on Powerball!).

Westminster - better look at a satellite map. Not quite a suburb anymore.

 

[GHarman]

I weigh every charge on a Herters beam balance scale! I've used that scale since I was 17 years old! Works great! The powder is dumped into the scale pan using a Lyman 55 powder measure.
While not the fastest method, it is SAFETY First and consistency! Necessary? Probably not! But why mess with success? That being said, I would like a progressive press, but primarily for handgun ammo. 9mm and .45 Auto to start?

Tried an electronic scale for a while, but it drifted all the time. Then, I lost the standard, on a trip, out of State. Never replaced that standard. Its been 15 years!!
I do know that the general consideration with electronic scales is that you do not use them in the vicinity of a Florescent lighting fixture!

GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

I've been pretty happy with the last three RCBS Chargemasters I've had. The first one wore out around 35,000 rounds... the scale got to where it wouldn't give a consistent reading to the dispenser, and it would overthrow powder. The newer model worked faster, and was even more accurate..... Temperature affected both. They had to sit turned on a while before they'd be very accurate. I used to weigh every charge thrown, but after several hundred being within 1/2 a tenth of a gr.... The second one lasted 100,000+ rounds, and was still working, it would throw a heavy charge every now and then.... My SD started to spread out some.... so I got the third unit and it's even better. It automatically throws the next charge after the scale zeros.... All these are checked on an old Herters Beam scale, too!! Occasionally, the charges are varied by a tenth or so, but it's spread across the entire load sequence, so you either turn it off and restart it or just load that batch of ammo and go on.....

Ceiling fans, fluorescent lighting (with old style capacitor ballasts), and air conditioners all affect the charges thrown... Sooo, you have to control the environment, just like you would with a beam scale....

 

[Sticks]

I've found that even ambient temps affect the whole reloading process. I have to get my garage up to operating temps for a couple of hours before I start in. I've seen some interesting changes from cold start (sub 50*) to operating temps (65*). COAL changes, primer seating depth crimp, powder throws. Weird.

 

[HHhuntitall]

COAL changes? That is odd... Perhaps the expansion of the metal in the press and dies? Or maybe even in the calipers? GHarm will have more insight into that than I do.... I see the powder throws being off if you're using brass throw gauges. Usually, steel doesn't grow that much in that little of temperature variation.... Brass and aluminum have a large spread on their heat growth values. I don't know the coeffecients off the top of my head, but aluminum has an aggressive growth curve/heat ratio.

I've been pretty blessed, Dad has been keeping the race shop (I guess I should start calling it the rifle shop....) where we set up at a controlled temp year around. It's always 60-80*. He even went so far as to install a 240v AC/Heater in the window!! I had to run 120' of 10ga wire to accommodate the amp load.... Well worth it, though, when outside temps go above 100* during the summer down here.... It also helps control the humidity! The old Chargemasters wouldn't work very good below 60*. I haven't noticed the new one being tempermental at all, but then, it is a bit more controlled environment than years past.

 

[Flying_gage]

Keep chatting guys. I am listening, (as I am sure others are) and we are learning in the process. Ordered some bullets in .308, (168's, 173's and 175's). As I am now recovering from another knee surgery,(HHuntitall this may be why my email was a little sketchy.) I am back to reading a ton and absorbing as much as my dusty mind allows. I figure I should have a pretty good group of testable loads soon.

One thing I have noted though is how important brass is! I ***-u-me'd that all brass was pretty close in volume, weight, length etc... Not so much! I know that this stuff is pretty elemental to you guys, yet I was born a stubborn old fart. I have always had to learn stuff on my own. I will try and keep my brass as consistent for all the ladder loads so as to reduce variability. As I type this out though, it just dawned on me that I might not have a ton of depth to my loads... Maybe I will run down to my local mom and pop gun shop and see if they still have that left over Federal and Winchester brass. Stuff I am using now is the CBC "sniper" brass and the CBC m80 brass.

Quick question on the rifle I am shooting this stuff out of. Any guesses as to when that barrel will be broken in? I have 66 rounds through her thus far. Nothing scheduled for the next couple of weeks as I look like Mike Ditka hobbling around now.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Brass is very important!! Many brands vary across the spectrum from each other!! A load used in Federal or Lapua brass might be too hot in Remington brass, as it typically is thicker, giving it less internal volume and creating more pressures with less powder...... Typcially, Winchester brass gets about a 50% failure rate to make specs for match brass..... Lot numbers are important, too, as different lot numbers will have different characteristics..... I recently bought two kegs of IMR7828.... I started out working up loads for it in a 7mmRemMag, and my starter loads were popping primers!!! I checked the rifle out for barrel and chamber obstructions!!! I shot some old loads in it with no problems, so I deduced the powder burned faster than it should.... I backed the load down to 66gr... a similar load I had for IMR4831... That worked okay, so that lot number burned much faster than the previous lot number!!! Dangerous, to some extent. I called my distributor, but given the current situation on reloading supplies, I've kept it for use in other calibers, perhaps.... may try some of that in a .270 I've got....

For brass, I would qualify it as follows in order of best to worst..... Lapua, Federal/LakeCity, PMC, Nosler, Winchester, Remington There are other brass manufacturers out there, of course, but my limited experience with them limits my judgments..... Lapua brass runs 95-98% match quality, where I want it within 1% of each other, Federal is roughly 70-75%, Remington is 50-30%, depending on lot number and caliber.....

The barrel on the Remington is considered broken in when you stop getting excessive copper fouling out of it.... There shouldn't be any signs of copper after shooting 10-20 rounds. On some Remington's I've had, that never came... Typcially, those barrels don't shoot. Good shooting hammer forged barrels usually break in around 150-300 rounds. Hammer forging is a cheap way to make a barrel, but it works okay most of the time.... It's good for the bottom dollar. (I'm not deliberately speaking derogatorily of your rifle, mind you, I'm just speaking of my experiences....)

 

[Flying_gage]

For brass, I would qualify it as follows in order of best to worst..... Lapua, Federal/LakeCity, PMC, Nosler, Winchester, Remington There are other brass manufacturers out there, of course, but my limited experience with them limits my judgments..... Lapua brass runs 95-98% match quality, where I want it within 1% of each other, Federal is roughly 70-75%, Remington is 50-30%, depending on lot number and caliber.....

I do have some PMC 147 ball. Would that qualify or do they have a variety of offerings that pertain to the cases also? Might have to shoot that up tomorrow as the wife is working.... Living in the sticks, I can do this out the back door, (no Ditka impersonation). Wife frowns on me shooting off the porch, yet the kids think it is pretty cool.

The barrel on the Remington is considered broken in when you stop getting excessive copper fouling out of it.... There shouldn't be any signs of copper after shooting 10-20 rounds. On some Remington's I've had, that never came... Typcially, those barrels don't shoot. Good shooting hammer forged barrels usually break in around 150-300 rounds. Hammer forging is a cheap way to make a barrel, but it works okay most of the time.... It's good for the bottom dollar. (I'm not deliberately speaking derogatorily of your rifle, mind you, I'm just speaking of my experiences....)

That makes sense. First handful of cleanings, I noticed a lot of fouling. It diminished significantly in the early 20's's. I am pretty certain that the rifle was fired more than a couple times by the time it got to me. When I ran the patch through it, it was FOUL! It was as though it had had a full day at the range and put away dirty. The OCD side of me got pretty twitchy as I hate having my stuff abused by someone else, (I will gladly do it, just don't like others doing it. Weird, I know...). Called the shop I bought it from and he said what he had to say. I guess I believed him as it wasn't worth it to fight that battle. In the end she seems to shoot pretty well and no harm was done.

I cannot dispute your thoughts on hammer forging. In fact after you mentioned it to me, I read a a fair amount on it and concluded you weren't kidding. Once again, I had to find out for myself with the caveat being that should it be a crappy barrel I would get it re-barreled with a quality offering... Convoluted I know... Yet that is how the good Lord made me. I have to work with what I have

 

[Sticks]

Most if not all firearms are test fired at the plant and are either not cleaned or just given a courtesy swabbing prior to shipping - at least that has been my experience. I never went through a "break in" on either of my ARs. Just shot the darn things. My 16" used to get a thorough cleaning after each day of firing, but I'm lazy and the things are designed for such abuse as neglect in that regard. I think my 16" got cleaned once between the two training classes I took (4 days of shooting, over 2200 rounds). The target that I posted on one of these threads had over 3k rounds down the tube since it's last cleaning and 6 months of sitting. I just gave the bolt and FCG a little lube and took aim. For a good read, and probably the justification for my laziness, read this; BCM Filthy 14

My press is a cast frame with an aluminum turret, steel (obviously) dies, plastic/polymer powder throw. Even my scales (another reason I should be running a beam scale) are sensitive to the 20* - 30* change. My go/no go gauge is aluminum and COAL attachment for my calipers are aluminum, calipers are steel. So, yeah there are a lot of metal differences that can cause the changes in COAL among other readings in that temperature spread. The powder is not immune to it either. The volume of .1gr of powder is really not that much, especially when you are talking about the size of the cavity to get 23+ grains.

I'm right with you on the sorting of brass, especially for true match ammo. I only go as far as Lake City, and Other. Other is for the lost brass days at ranges where you don't get to keep your brass (wish I had know that at my 3rd class..GRRRRRR) and field days turfing critters (which I have yet to do). Not about to sort through 10k cases examining head stamps for lot/year. When I get down to my MK262 loading, then I'll probably sit with the scales and weigh out the sized, trimmed, and reamed cases to .2gr variance. Which now in retrospect, my ladder loads will be close, but not a true accurate benchmark since those were all new LC brass, and the rest of that lot is somewhere in the 10k as once or twice fired. So long as it still gets at most 3/4 MOA I'll be satisfied. I lack the skills to properly operate a tack driver beyond 200y where very slight changes in grip, cheek weld, eye relief, cant, breathing and trigger pull will make huge changes at range - never mind environmental conditions. I just want to be able to hit a 6" target at 600 on demand.

 

[HHhuntitall]

That makes sense. First handful of cleanings, I noticed a lot of fouling. It diminished significantly in the early 20's's. I am pretty certain that the rifle was fired more than a couple times by the time it got to me. When I ran the patch through it, it was FOUL! It was as though it had had a full day at the range and put away dirty. The OCD side of me got pretty twitchy as I hate having my stuff abused by someone else, (I will gladly do it, just don't like others doing it. Weird, I know...). Called the shop I bought it from and he said what he had to say. I guess I believed him as it wasn't worth it to fight that battle. In the end she seems to shoot pretty well and no harm was done.

I cannot dispute your thoughts on hammer forging. In fact after you mentioned it to me, I read a a fair amount on it and concluded you weren't kidding. Once again, I had to find out for myself with the caveat being that should it be a crappy barrel I would get it re-barreled with a quality offering... Convoluted I know... Yet that is how the good Lord made me. I have to work with what I have

Well, and you know as well as I do any jerk on the internet can proclaim themselves a shooting diety.... In that respect, it's VERY wise to research the subject. I do that myself. Mostly just to expand my own understanding. I often speak out of turn, and offer unsolicited advice.... but I mean well, and speak from experience.

The dirty barrel would have been shot. The factory does typcially test fire them, but if the bolt closes, it fires, and it doesn't blow up, they don't care. It's obviously been shot some if it's that dirty, but that may not be a bad thing. Perhaps they've broke it in for you.... There is the rare possibility Remington QC shot it, but they usually keep them in the R&D lab.....

I sent back a Winchester rifle of my cousin's. It was a Classic Model 70 in 270WSM. The bolt handle kept coming loose with recoil, sliding back on the bolt splines. it also wouldn't hold a group to save it's life, and the headspacing was off. The No-go guage would close under the bolt and you couldn't even feel it.... Until you put 3 pieces of Scotch tape on it... roughly .006-.009. That's considerable, if not borderline unsafe..... So it went back, and 8 weeks later, we get the call to come pick it up from my buddy.... There is obviously something wrong, from the tone in his voice. So I show up and he hands me a 270Winchester.... WTH? He just shrugs.... I open the bolt and metal shavings just fall out of it.... The reamed the chamber dry, it appeared, probably just setting a barrel they had sitting there back, and shipped it out.... They couldn't have test fired it or run a go-nogo guage in it. It was impossible due to the large amount of metal shavings.... I traded for a Rem700 in 308. Factory ammo wouldn't chamber in it.... Remington ammo was out of the question, and Federal ammo, only 5-7 out of 20 in a box would close under the bolt without excessive force. The Go guage wouldn't even close under the bolt. I pulled the barrel, set it back two threads and rechambered it with a semi-match reamer, and it shot lights out..... Another Rem700 chambered in 7mmRemMag had the chamber cut crooked. You could fire it, open the bolt, close it back on the fired brass, open it back, rotate the brass 180*, and the bolt wouldn't come anywhere near closing..... (this list can go on for some time.... )

Regardless, your rifle has potential. Right now, you can learn from it, and I'm sure it's fine. Then, in a few years, you can save up $650-900 and get a new tube fitted on it, that will REALLY shoot!! And you'll have the experience to shoot it well, and load ammo for it!! Win-Win

I do understand.... I built/paid for it, so if anyone gets the pleasure in treating it rough, it's gonna be me!!

Most if not all firearms are test fired at the plant and are either not cleaned or just given a courtesy swabbing prior to shipping - at least that has been my experience. I never went through a "break in" on either of my ARs. Just shot the darn things. My 16" used to get a thorough cleaning after each day of firing, but I'm lazy and the things are designed for such abuse as neglect in that regard. I think my 16" got cleaned once between the two training classes I took (4 days of shooting, over 2200 rounds). The target that I posted on one of these threads had over 3k rounds down the tube since it's last cleaning and 6 months of sitting. I just gave the bolt and FCG a little lube and took aim. For a good read, and probably the justification for my laziness, read this; BCM Filthy 14

My press is a cast frame with an aluminum turret, steel (obviously) dies, plastic/polymer powder throw. Even my scales (another reason I should be running a beam scale) are sensitive to the 20* - 30* change. My go/no go gauge is aluminum and COAL attachment for my calipers are aluminum, calipers are steel. So, yeah there are a lot of metal differences that can cause the changes in COAL among other readings in that temperature spread. The powder is not immune to it either. The volume of .1gr of powder is really not that much, especially when you are talking about the size of the cavity to get 23+ grains.

I'm right with you on the sorting of brass, especially for true match ammo. I only go as far as Lake City, and Other. Other is for the lost brass days at ranges where you don't get to keep your brass (wish I had know that at my 3rd class..GRRRRRR) and field days turfing critters (which I have yet to do). Not about to sort through 10k cases examining head stamps for lot/year. When I get down to my MK262 loading, then I'll probably sit with the scales and weigh out the sized, trimmed, and reamed cases to .2gr variance. Which now in retrospect, my ladder loads will be close, but not a true accurate benchmark since those were all new LC brass, and the rest of that lot is somewhere in the 10k as once or twice fired. So long as it still gets at most 3/4 MOA I'll be satisfied. I lack the skills to properly operate a tack driver beyond 200y where very slight changes in grip, cheek weld, eye relief, cant, breathing and trigger pull will make huge changes at range - never mind environmental conditions. I just want to be able to hit a 6" target at 600 on demand.

The cast aluminum is the culprit on the OAL. I've seen the OAL gauges go apes when you start loading in the morning, then in the afternoon, after the room has heated up 40*, it's wayyyyy off!! Add the same amount of factor to your press, only worse, as there's that much more aluminum to move expand.

Be sure to weigh through your brass before you trim the necks and ream the primer pockets, if you can. If you don't, you can't have an accurate estimate of the original case weight, which is directly related to thicknesses in the neck and wall.... You're wasting your time, IMO. You'd be better leaving well enough alone and just sorting through year headstamps!! I've found it's not that hard on rainy days.... Especially when I want/need to sit for a few hours. I just use some buckets, write the year on the inside of the bucket so I can see it, and start chunking according to year!! Left to right, '01-'10 last time I sorted through it... with a few labeled '05-'08 for my IMI brass... OCD? Maybe.....

 

[Flying_gage]

Be sure to weigh through your brass before you trim the necks and ream the primer pockets, if you can. If you don't, you can't have an accurate estimate of the original case weight, which is directly related to thicknesses in the neck and wall.... You're wasting your time, IMO. You'd be better leaving well enough alone and just sorting through year headstamps!! I've found it's not that hard on rainy days.... Especially when I want/need to sit for a few hours. I just use some buckets, write the year on the inside of the bucket so I can see it, and start chunking according to year!! Left to right, '01-'10 last time I sorted through it... with a few labeled '05-'08 for my IMI brass... OCD? Maybe.....

I just sorted yesterday. I highly recommend reloading if you have small kids as the quiet time is good for working on brass when there are no other options. In fact, I had a bag of brass that was given to me, probably 500 rounds of berdan/boxer primed stuff. My 4 year old gladly used my bore light to check every 10th one or so to make sure I was separating them correctly. Then we separated them based on the head stamp. If nothing else, per his pre-school teacher, I am improving his fine motor skills doing this stuff!

My question is this though: when I weigh them, how should I separate them? Should I have a range that I separate them into and work from that? If so, what would that weight range be, (think of me as a budding olympic shooter as I want to do this right the first time).

If not, how should I separate them?

 

[Sticks]

Are you going for match grade, like 99%, or reliable quality 90%?

If you are going for Match grade, then weigh up each lot of head stamp, and literally, start placing them in left to right line in order of weight on a piece of paper (where you can write the weight down), and any that are equal, place in front of that matching weighed case. I'm lazy and can rarely read my own handwriting so I would probably make out an Xcel spreadsheet with the weights numbering up by .1gr, spread the columns wide enough that they are the same width as the case head and print it out ~ using a random handful of weighed cases to get an idea of the starting point ~ That will give you an idea of the spread between the high and low. You should end up with a single row that grows into a mound then back into a single row. The center of that mound (READ - the tallest stack) is your base line and the two stacks on either side are your High and Low variance. Either chuck the rest or set them aside for plinking, varmint hunting which translates into quality ammo ~ 90%.

However here is where I will disagree with weighing out a case before it's been prepped, especially if it's once fired or range brass. Primers weigh different, may or may not be residue or debris in the case, and depending on how much the case stretched and expanded when it was fired will dictate how much will be trimmed when it is sized (disregard if this is NIB brass). That is why I believe they should be sorted after all the prep work is done and you are ready to prime and load.

Rinse and repeat for your bullets. Those you are also going to inspect for any flaws (dents, burrs, scratches, creases and other flaws). If they are supposed to weigh 180gr, then you only want the 180gr, no +/-. Primers from the same lot, powder from the same keg/lot. Anytime you restock on powder/primers, load up 10 and test fire to check for accuracy and pressure signs (helps to have a chrono and keep a log).

Now having said all that, I have yet to do any of it. I only check for pressure signs on the cases and pay attention to the way my rifle is behaving since I typically only shoot out to 100 when I do shoot.

 

[Flying_gage]

Sticks I have done so with the .223 that I have loaded and will do so with the .308. Both my long guns are set up for accuracy and I try to take as long as possible between each shot. Read an article not too long ago where a guy said that he would only shoot 20 bullets in a session, taking up to ten mins. between shots. After mimicking his approach, I can see how that focus and attention payback with results. My goal for the gun in this thread is =/<.750 on a repeatable basis. So anything that will help!

If nothing else, it is a good occupier of my time right now. That and I do like learning how to do things the "right" way. It gives me a baseline so that when I do get lazy, I will truly appreciate the effort and have a measurable difference that is correctable. When I get one of the tactical AR's, I will not worry as much, (or reloading for my M1A socom).

 

[Sticks]

Wow. 1 shot every 10 minuets. Even when I had my PSL, and was going for accuracy @400, I was lucky to keep it at 1 per minute - Wish I knew then what I know now, I might have kept it.

Sub MOA with a .308 bolt gun, easy. Shooting it sub MOA is another story. This is where "It's the Indian, not the Bow" comes in. Worry about the environmental variables later.

Find out the general sweet spot in loading your rifle likes, then take her for a walk. Get used to the basics. How she recoils, the stages of the trigger and when the break is, how she fits into your shoulder. The you get to work on yourself - natural point of aim and how to find it quick (more of a tactical thing on my part), eye relief, cheek weld, grip, breathing, trigger pull at the right time and knowing when to pass for a few more breaths, follow through after you take the shot (this does not mean looking over the top of your scope or grabbing the spotting scope/binoculars). Even knowing when to say, "Not today" and pack up, instead of fighting yourself. Long list of checks before the first trigger pull, but it does get automatic.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I think taking that long between shots is a bit drastic myself, especially with a heavier barrel. Shooting relays in competition, we often will shoot 20 rounds in less than 15 minutes, sometimes just cranking them out as fast as we can before environmental parameters change...... I might add that in Palma, at 600 yards, one MOA is roughly 6", the size of the X ring. (F-class is half that!!) Environmental parameters should be noted, but really are not a concern at 100 yards for grouping purposes.

For sorting brass, length is a concern, but of greater concern is case thickness. If you are going to trim the cases, you are reducing the case weight, yes. But what about different lots of brass with varying thicknesses in the case walls? There is no way to account for the amount of case there after trimming. There can be some residue in once fired cases, but that needs to be removed as much as possible, anyway. The case thickness affects chamber pressure, and ultimately, overall performance. If shooting Mil-pulled bullets, I doubt there is much point, as I find those bullets to be less than consistent..... For match purposes, I weigh each case to get the base area of weight, then divide and sort accordingly. For match, I usually keep it within 3-5grs, depending on brass overall weight, but often try to find the median area where the most amount of brass will fall, too. Other brass is sorted off for hunting, break-in, and utilitarian purpose. I also try to use brass all produced in the same lot number, obviously. Same for powder, bullets, and primers.... But I go through several thousand a year, so I buy fairly large quantities. Using once fired, mixed headstamp brass can cause some problems when trying to use for match purposes. That's where a lot of flyers come from for the Service Rifle guys, I think.... JMO.

I don't see any reason why you can't reach 3/4" MOA pretty easy if the rifle will perform reasonably. A little home brew will help a great deal, again, JMO.....

 

[Sticks]

I think taking that long between shots is a bit drastic myself, especially with a heavier barrel. Shooting relays in competition, we often will shoot 20 rounds in less than 15 minutes, sometimes just cranking them out as fast as we can before environmental parameters change...... I might add that in Palma, at 600 yards, one MOA is roughly 6", the size of the X ring. (F-class is half that!!) Environmental parameters should be noted, but really are not a concern at 100 yards for grouping purposes.

For sorting brass, length is a concern, but of greater concern is case thickness. If you are going to trim the cases, you are reducing the case weight, yes. But what about different lots of brass with varying thicknesses in the case walls? There is no way to account for the amount of case there after trimming. ...

That's the part that I don't understand. Either sized and trimmed, or fresh from the range pile there is "X" amount of brass per case. It should be more accurate if all your brass is prepped (size, trimmed, reamed, etc..). Everyone is the same length brand/flavor/head stamp, so a case that weighs 120gr compared to a case that weighs 105gr has more brass ~ ergo the 120gr case has thicker walls maybe a thicker head, less volume than the 105gr who has to have lost that brass weight somewhere and presumably equally spread out throughout the case.

 

[GHarman]

IMHO, if the brass is new? The brass is already at optimal SAAMI specs. It then should be weighed and sorted. Expect a bell curve shaped weight distribution. The middle of the curve, those with the closest weights are your target group. Those that are wildly divergent, highs and lows, should be marked and placed in their own groups. Use 'em for fouling shots, etc.
Used brass should IMHO, be completely processed before you weight sort. The dirt is gone, primer and residue gone and the cases resized, trimmed, PP trued and F.H. chamfered. THAT is the condition of the brass in which you are going to shoot them. That is more realistic than skipping the processing to get optimal weight distribution.
If you are concerned about wall thickness (You should for various reasons) There are tools that actually measure wall thickness AND concentricity of the case walls!
Course, now we are ventured off into the Benchrest Shooters world!
There is a point of diminishing returns. You have to determine, for yourself, where that cutoff point is!
GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

IMHO, if the brass is new? The brass is already at optimal SAAMI specs. It then should be weighed and sorted. Expect a bell curve shaped weight distribution. The middle of the curve, those with the closest weights are your target group. Those that are wildly divergent, highs and lows, should be marked and placed in their own groups. Use 'em for fouling shots, etc.
Used brass should IMHO, be completely processed before you weight sort. The dirt is gone, primer and residue gone and the cases resized, trimmed, PP trued and F.H. chamfered. THAT is the condition of the brass in which you are going to shoot them. That is more realistic than skipping the processing to get optimal weight distribution.
If you are concerned about wall thickness (You should for various reasons) There are tools that actually measure wall thickness AND concentricity of the case walls!
Course, now we are ventured off into the Benchrest Shooters world!
There is a point of diminishing returns. You have to determine, for yourself, where that cutoff point is!
GregH

Excellent observation and choice of words, GHarm, thank you. I focus too much on one objective sometimes.... my time here is limited, so sometimes I focus on too small a subject.... and it's not just a benchrest shooter's world... Palma was started to get away from some of those guys.... and F-class for those of us that can't see well enough any more.....

But, getting back to the brass thickness, if you were to remove some of the brass from the cartridge, you have no way of knowing if those cases are heavier than others.... say the wall is thicker on a shorter cartridge.... you don't trim the cartridge any, but it's still lighter than the one you did trim .02 off of.... why is that? The cartridge walls are thicker!! It's a result of the manufacturing process, and that's why I suggest using brass from the same lot numbers when possible.... With used brass, that's usually not possible. But if you're running on the upper spectrum for pressures on reloading, when you load the thicker cartridge, you'll get pressure spikes, resulting in fliers or even blown primers. So then that brings us to the laws of value and diminished gains, as pointed out by GHarm..... Perhaps I'm anal.... I've been told there are lots of anal aspects to my personality. :-laf But then, I go for the best accuracy, sacrificing efficiency of value to a degree.... But I like to be able to hit my 6" kill zone at 400yds every time.... if I miss, it's not the rifle's fault. And if I were shooting three gun at less than 100 yards, I might not be nearly as concerned.... But at this point, I'll have to concede that it's not as important to most as it is to me.... However, let me point out, there is a huge difference between loading 20-25gr of powder in a .223, and loading 45-50 in something like a .243/.308..... but then, I diverge on subject, yet again.... I'm out!

 

[BIGNASTY]

Getting into this post with hesitation and part way thru, im haven't gone back and read every word so here goes. On the rifle that I go to an extreme ( for me) on reloading is my 338/378 I don't know at what range that im going to be harvesting an animal at, so knowing where the bullet is going from 300yrd out to my best at 980 yrds is MANDENTORY. I have read and agree with what's on the last several post's, I may have missed it but I cant find where any of them had something about Neck thickness or length of neck, bullet crimp and seating depth unless its in one of your abbreviations that I don't understand. On my rife its seems to be MORE of a factor than brand of case, although I use only one for truly the best of rounds, or the weight of case's. I use the same powder, primers, bullets charge weight checked two times on two different scales. On a round that is going into the field to be used to hunt, full length resize every case. BIL and I HAD the same caliber and didn't want to NOT be able to use my ammo in his or his in mine if something went wrong. It could be that if I use some of the other techneiques that you have brought up I may be able to get a little more out of my ammo, gun combo but in my world a Dead Elk at 980yrds and only missing POA by a few inches is good enough for me.

Point in case BIL couldn't take the butt kicking of his rifle any longer, he sold it to a guy that works for another Outfitter. It makes no difference that I don't like the man, his hunting ethics or the idea that his hunting clients are JUST A SOURCE OF INCOME. He took the rifle and said he can reload for it, (because I took the brass and ammo BIL had for it.) A week later he came to me in town and said BIL sold him a POS. I disagreed with this and told him to bring it to my house along with his Ammo. BIL met us over at my place the guy took 4 shots at the 600 yrd gong and hit 2, got up from the bench and said see what a POS you sold me. While he was adding lead and copper to the ground, I took a look at his reloads, :-laf I held them up to my BIL and he rolled his eyes. I told them to hang on a second and went and got a few of my Full length resized not for his rifle ammo and asked do you mind? I sat in on the bench and put 4 our of 4 on the gong and one could not tell that there were any fliers because of the bullet splatter but it was obvious that they were pretty well centered on the gong.

I got up from the bench and asked if he had any questions? No!! I didn't think so. He was POed when I told him that what ever Ape that reloaded his ammo should have taken off the boxing gloves before he did.

More than EVERYTHING else I think consistency is the most important thing, whether a guy uses ALL of the techniques that you guys mentioned above or just the ones that make his shooter work !!

BIG