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Massive emission trouble for VW.

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Last shutdown: Mark Koskenmaki

This can't be happening. Bad press for Diesel anything. I'm stunned!

From the article: "The Volkswagens likely perform better with the emissions controls defeated than they do with them on, said Aaron Bragman, Detroit bureau chief for the Cars.com automotive shopping and research site. Otherwise, he said, there would be no reason to have a setting that turns on the controls for tests and turns them off for regular driving."

Which raises the question: What idiot is going to take their car in to have the software changed in such a way that they get degraded performance? If it becomes required that all VW owners have to do this in order to pass emissions tests I would think that there would be an instant black market created to flash the ECM to the legal state before the emissions test, then reflash it back to the better performing state after you pass.
 
Yep, I have one. Interesting it has same basic emissions as my 2009 Dodge, which I had to sign a buyer acknowledgment that certain driving patterns with the emissions (frequent short drives, not full operating temp, light load) would clog the DPF and potentially damage the turbo and generally be a major difficulty.. but NO SUCH paperwork for the 2012 VW Jetta.. now I know why!

Further proof, as if we needed any, that the emissions systems post 2007 are causing serious reliability issues in any TDI, and thus VWs attempt to trick the system.

Important to note, US is the most restrictive on NOx for Diesels, even the newer strict EU standard is double the US standard.

What is bold here is someone at VW decided to do this, and some heads are going to roll for sure.. that also have a serious failure rate issue on the CP4.1 Bosch HPFP that trashes the entire fuel system with metal contamination and can be over $6K in repairs.. that the extended the warranty out to 10 yr/120K for.
 
Yep, I have one. Interesting it has same basic emissions as my 2009 Dodge, which I had to sign a buyer acknowledgment that certain driving patterns with the emissions (frequent short drives, not full operating temp, light load) would clog the DPF and potentially damage the turbo and generally be a major difficulty.. but NO SUCH paperwork for the 2012 VW Jetta.. now I know why!

Michael, forgive me as I'm not up on the VW equipment from year to year, but I'll assume yours has a 2010 style arrangement with a DPF, SCR, EGR. I can see 2 of the 3 devices can be masked.- the EGR and SCR. The DPF cannot be circumvented unless it's bypassed. The DPF would be the main cause for the letter you had to sign for Dodge since both vehicles have them.
It's been my experience with class 8 truck emissions that the advent of SCR in 2010 enabled the engines to run much better since they were able to cut back on EGR, and also cut back on regenerations- which IMHO EGR is the biggest offender of all devices in regards to engine performance.

*On soap box*
This just cranks me up because almost ten years ago as I recall, the automotive markets were ramping up for a Diesel passenger car invasion. Almost all of the Asian and a lot of euro makes were readying vehicles to come here. I was salivating for a chance to check out a CRV or Forester diesel. When the EPA announced the 2008 laws, everyone who wasn't here already dropped their plans. This story just reminds me of how much the US government HATES DIESELS! *Off soap box*

I hope VW can figure a way out of this alive!
 
VW didn't introduce SCR on their vehicles until either 2014 or 2015.

I'm really curious how they managed this one as a lot of people have to pass emissions tests annually. How do you make an engine pass a test and then return to a "dirty" state without any intervention with the owner is beyond me... I just hope VW sorts this out and this isn't the beginning of the end of passenger diesels in the US. :(
 
VW didn't introduce SCR on their vehicles until either 2014 or 2015.

You sure? I thought they were on board with the AdBlue DEF and like the other Germans, using reference of "blue" everywhere before anyone. I thought SCR was a must have in 2010 and were the nails in Navistar's coffin. If you're right, then maybe this is how they got around it! :eek:
 
You sure? I thought they were on board with the AdBlue DEF and like the other Germans, using reference of "blue" everywhere before anyone. I thought SCR was a must have in 2010 and were the nails in Navistar's coffin. If you're right, then maybe this is how they got around it! :eek:

I can clear it up, VW used both the SCR (DEF) and the non (NOx absorbent) technology. The latter is basically a scaled down version of the 3 gen Cummins in my 2009 truck. The Jetta was using the NO DEF until I think 2014 or so. Mine is a 2012, no DEF. The test that started this all was back in 2014 and the test was on road emissions of 3 Light Duty Diesels, one a 2012 TDI VW Jetta (like mine), vehicle A, another was a 2013 TDI Passat (SCR and DEF), vehicle B, and the final was a BMW TDI, AWD SUV, straight 6 cylinder engine. Vehicle C passed in lab (dyno run) and also on road with similar emissions.

Vehicle A and B both passed on all tested variables in the lab on the dyno. This is how they are certified, and tested.

This where it gets interesting. In the on road tests, vehicle A was up to 35 times over the NOx emissions limit (some news say 40 times, but I read the full actual report that started this and it stated 20 to 35 times.. someone for dramatic effect rounded up to 40.. typical media). Vehicle B (SCR, DEF system) well it did not pass either but was much closer about 10 times over the limit, keep in mind the US has the same NOx limit for all engines, and it is half the latest and most strict EU spec for NOx, they do not use DEF in Europe as they don't need to go that low on NOx like we do.

So the report that started this got EPA and CARB in CA looking further at these vehicles and they were able to consistently show the cars would not pass on road testing (not done easily or normally.. the test cars were dramatically fitted out with measurement gear approximating the weight of 3 passengers, and it included an 2Kw Honda generator to power the gear, on vehicle C they had 2 generators.. so you can see this is not the kind of test that your local emissions inspection will ever do, just too hard.

So for the last couple of years the regulators have been demanding VW explain why the cars pass emissions in the lab, but will not pass on road testing.. and VW has stalled in providing an explaination, even trying to say the test cars must have a mechanical defect.

Regulators tried a car right off the lot, and it too failed same way, OK lab, no pass road.

So finally EPA tells VW no 2016 cars will be allowed on the road, and are held in port (no 2016 TDIs at the dealerships... hmm.) They say until they explain the issue, no more certification.

Then VW admits the cars had built in to the software code in the ECM to know when a test was being done, and then would operate the emissions (EGR et. al) to acheive a passing score.. but when driven in real world they would optimize for power and efficiency, and not emissions.. so an intentional effort to not meet emissions, as you can imagine, they are in serious hot water over this.

Now to address the DPF issue and how it is similar.. well many know now the problem with the 3rd Gen and its emissions is heavy EGR flow to meet NOx, the EGR is failure prone and boosts soot to keep NOx down, thus well known DPF and EGR issues on our trucks.. VW has not had those problems... and now we know why. By having the cars run reduced EGR, higher more efficient combustion (always well over EPA estimated MPG), they produced less soot for the DPF, but more NOx, and hence the issue. The only measured emissions fail was NOx, though there were periods of operation, like Regen where some other specs were momentarily out of spec also.

So, where does this leave the customer? Well VW did something that actually improved the longevity and performance of the TDI, for the customer, but not honestly or legally as it appears now. Problem now is if they are, and they will be, mandated to reprogram all the offending TDIs to meet standards, you can bet those cars will begin to plug DPFs, stick EGRs and wipe out turbos and soot up the intake, dilute the fuel.. etc. All the issues these emissions systems have caused on the TDI.

I can say they will have to FORCE me to reprogram, and if that happens, I'm not sure I'll be keeping the car, as I can't do with it what I do on the truck and limit the drive pattern to longer drives to get full temp and under load... which is still ridiculous but so far I've been OK on emissions, though I have been recently trying the EGR unplug and have boosted MPG by about 1.5 to 2 MPG (18.5 to about 21).

It was noted earlier, the heavy EGR and problems with that led to now universal use of DEF and SCR systems in the US, so those stuck with the old systems are going to have a rough go of things it seems, and for me that is now 2 vehicles!!! :mad:
 
I truly feel bad for owners, but have no mercy on VW after owning a Passat that was nothing but trouble, and putting up with their "superiority complex".

Warning: Contains Foul Language In The Sub-Titles
https://youtu.be/dKef1JFpiCA

Yes I agree and on you tube, there were other news type clips- they're calling this DIESELGATE! Rediculous. Now if they stopped treating VW like an Audi, and made a sensible no frills stripper car like they used to bring here, for a good price,
they might get somewhere.
 
It will be interesting to see what they come up with. I purchased a car (2014 Passat TDi) that is EPA estimated to get x MPG. If I am required to get a refresh or some other "fix" that drops the mileage, what then? When they say "40 times" the limit, the limit now is so low that {40 x not much=just a little more than not much}. Yep, this is going to be a big CF for VW.
 
I truly feel bad for owners, but have no mercy on VW after owning a Passat that was nothing but trouble, and putting up with their "superiority complex".

Great video clip! Yes, I too detect a superiority complex when dealing with VW. First call to customer care to complain about the "diagnostic fee" to have them look at the HPFP when I found metal particles in my filter the woman on the phone did not even take down my name of VIN and basically hung up on me!

Later I called and registered a complaint, and the guy was more reasonable, but still did nothing essentially. They are supposedly OK with what as an engineer I know to be a poor design on the HPFP that has failures with little notice that cost thousands to repair.. but they extend the warranty long enough to cover the small number of early failures, when most fail just outside the now extended coverage.. coincidentally.

The Chevy Cruze TDI is looking better at this point, I'll be looking at one later today, and I'm having the VW dealer try to compete with a newer Jetta, just to give them another shot, but they are working at a disadvantage at this point.
 
It will be interesting to see what they come up with. I purchased a car (2014 Passat TDi) that is EPA estimated to get x MPG. If I am required to get a refresh or some other "fix" that drops the mileage, what then? When they say "40 times" the limit, the limit now is so low that {40 x not much=just a little more than not much}. Yep, this is going to be a big CF for VW.

AMink,
No worries, you have the SCR and DEF, I read the study.. that car tested only slightly over the limits.. so I'd expect only a minor power economy degrade from the ECM update.. I'd guess maybe 2-3 MPG at most, and perhaps more use of DEF..

The SCR diesel in the test, the BMW SUV did pass the on road, so that system is proving to be much better over all, despite the small hassle of the DEF..

I'm so sure of this, I don't have an issue with a newer VW with the SCR/DEF system, but I'm alarmed at the LNT non DEF system. I can't limit drives in the car like I do my 3rd Gen Cummins to long trips, under load mostly, to keep the system healthy.. but the SCR systems are working well without those issues for the most part.. you'll likely be OK.

Oh, also the EPA estimates on your car were based on the full emissions operation (the "dyno calibration" in the ECM, not the "on road" calibration) the dyno calibration is the one that does pass the emissions.. VW is in trouble because they built into the ECM the ability of the car to sense an emissions test and go to the compliant "dyno" calibration. Then switch to a more efficient "on road", non-compliant program which is the is problem. The ECM update, I'm quite sure will wipe out the "on road" calibration and the car will run the "dyno calibration" mode all the time.. that is the mode that was used to generate the EPA estimates on the window sticker.. no doubt your real world has been well over that number due to the "on road' calibration operation.
 
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