Massive emission trouble for VW.

[MichaelOverfield]

Wayne, Sadly not a surprise for Portland, SF north, then there is Seattle, SF/Portland more north. These towns have more than their fair share of green nutcases. Recently a bunch of these morons drove many miles with their plastic kayaks on their expensive roof racks, to go and try to block a drilling rig headed for Alaska.. so they use the fuel for their cars, for the kayaks, and clothes.. yet protest the methods to obtain that same fuel.. Morons, all of them. Reminds me of the gal interviewed by Fox News William Lagenese (sp) some years back.. all against use of animals for any reason, food, clothes, etc. She got speechless when asked about leather boots.. as she was wearing them!

On the TDI club members are giving advice on how to remove the TDI badges without taking off paint! Sad, very sad. The fact is even if over the EPA limits, these cars are still quite clean on emissions over many other cars on the road.. but don't expect logic to factor into this.

mrwilson, I think you may be right on that sadly.. this is why what VW did was so bad.. yes the EPAs specs are out of whack, but VW did this the wrong way. They end up validating the environmental whacko mandates by cheating. It is beyond frustrating. I was getting annoyed with the VW denials over what I find to be a clearly poorly designed HPFP that they choose to install in these cars.. then this.. I'm out, now having the Chevy Cruze Diesel instead. Oh, and the salesperson explained that battery charging system you noted on Hoopty, it is patented by GM, monitors the current to the battery via a loop around the ground cable.. and from that adjusts charge from the alternator.. not only is this good for the battery, it also minimizes parasitic drain on the engine, though likely too small to detect on a V8.. but still a good technology for sure. I was also impressed when I checked the oil and pulled out the most robust and possibly over built dipstick I've ever seen on a car, it is a metal spiral wound coil, like a pick-up tool, with a metal stamped level band indicator on the end, and a double O-ring seal on the top. Not some cheesy plastic thing the VW had.

 

[Wayne M.]

Wow. Didn't realize they were putting these violation decals on paint!

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Here's some of the best reporting I've seen.. looks like the decision to cheat was to save $335 per car, and not use a DEF system.

Now I know why they also went with the cheaper HPFP that fails and contaminates the whole fuel system.. that one over the better HPFP saves nearly $600 per car!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/how-volkswagen-got-busted-for-gaming-epa-diesel-emissions-standards/

http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-bosch-warned-vw-about-diesel-emissions-cheating-in-2007/

http://blog.caranddriver.com/vw-diesel-fix-reportedly-ready-in-a-few-days/

 

[Tuesdak]

I'm out, now having the Chevy Cruze Diesel instead. Oh, and the salesperson explained that battery charging system you noted on Hoopty, it is patented by GM, monitors the current to the battery via a loop around the ground cable.. and from that adjusts charge from the alternator.. not only is this good for the battery, it also minimizes parasitic drain on the engine, though likely too small to detect on a V8.. but still a good technology for sure.

The battery temperature compensated charging voltage system on my 2003 Dodge 3500 is light years ahead of GM for reliability in this area.

You will soon learn the power of the Darkside that the GM "dead battery" current loop system is. Start with the cheapest likely made in China Delco Starting battery. Subject it to deep cycle type of abuse by kicking out the alternator and making this cheap battery power everything including the ECM and computer heavy car. Override it for headlights and a dozen other over-complicated modes of operation.

Explain WTF to do when the dead battery (yes, dead again!) won't even let you get your key out of the ignition.

You had better insist that they drop in a deep cycle battery as part of the new car deal or pay for one yourself later...

 

[MichaelOverfield]

You will soon learn the power of the Darkside that the GM "dead battery" current loop system is. Start with the cheapest likely made in China Delco Starting battery. Subject it to deep cycle type of abuse by kicking out the alternator and making this cheap battery power everything including the ECM and computer heavy car. Override it for headlights and a dozen other over-complicated modes of operation.

Explain WTF to do when the dead battery (yes, dead again!) won't even let you get your key out of the ignition.

You had better insist that they drop in a deep cycle battery as part of the new car deal or pay for one yourself later...

Interesting.. I'll look into that. mrwilson had a battery for I seem to recall 8 years or more in his Cadillac without issue.. Perhaps there are some hit or miss issues.. My '96 Saturn does not have this sophisticated system, and I'm on the 3rd battery, and 3rd alternator, at just shy of 200K miles.

I will say the Cruze has a very large battery compared to the VW, for the same displacement Diesel engine.. the good news is it appears to be a group 27 size holder, so a deep cycle would fit there I think. I did a deep cycle some years back in the 2004 Land Rover Discovery 2, and its holding up very well.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the market on the VWs.. I'd consider a good deal on a used one.. but advertised prices still seem pretty solid, but I did note many had "price reduced" on the advertisement.. perhaps the damage is hitting the marked already, I would think it has to have an effect.

 

[Tractorat]

The good news here is that we've finally found the cause of global warming. Its been vw all of the time. :-laf

 

[Wayne M.]

The good news here is that we've finally found the cause of global warming. Its been vw all of the time. :-laf

:-laf :-laf

 

[jgillott]

Wait, I thought this was the cause.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/29/opinions/sutter-beef-suv-cliamte-two-degrees/index.html

 

[AMink]

Well I kinda have to wonder whether the EPA Animas dam breach, disastrous as it was, was actually an accident or perhaps deliberate…I mean , it certainly saved the mine owner millions of dollars on implementing a solution to disposing of the millions of gallons of waste generated by their mining operation and it also resulted in an at least temporary moratorium on ANY further EPA testing of earthen mine dams. Go ahead and call me a cynic, but that's gotta be worth something to somebody... alls you got to do is follow the money.

I thought I read that EPA was doing the work itself, leaving the mine company out of it. Could be wrong, but if that's the case the Animas breach is solely on the EPA. And you KNOW if they could have got money from the company, they would have.

 

[Tuesdak]

Interesting.. I'll look into that. mrwilson had a battery for I seem to recall 8 years or more in his Cadillac without issue.. Perhaps there are some hit or miss issues.. My '96 Saturn does not have this sophisticated system, and I'm on the 3rd battery, and 3rd alternator, at just shy of 200K miles.

I will say the Cruze has a very large battery compared to the VW, for the same displacement Diesel engine.. the good news is it appears to be a group 27 size holder, so a deep cycle would fit there I think. I did a deep cycle some years back in the 2004 Land Rover Discovery 2, and its holding up very well.

The heat out here limits battery life to 3 years or less. Most just change the battery at 2 years rather than change it when they die in the 3rd year. With the GM system we are lucky to get 1 year out of the battery. I have had it come back from the dealer (aftermarket warranty work replaced alternator) with a new Delco battery and no paperwork. I have lost at least 1 aftermarket battery warranty from that. How do you complain when they gave you a free battery to replace yours that died in the dealer shop? Yeah, if you do put a good battery in check it every time you get it back from the dealer...

 

[Wayne M.]

Another piece this time from Automotive News. The guy is all wrong- says owners of diesel pickups are apart from VW owners. I guess he does not come around here!

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150929/BLOG06/150929796?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Please let this relative newby know whether he has it right.

VW TDI has a known issue with the HPFP - probably need to replace - cost around $600?

VW TDI needs to have ECM reflashed to remove emissions cheating code - assume at VW expense.

Would I be right to conclude that I should start looking to pick up a used VW TDI at a huge discount? Would I be right to conclude that I could make the changes needed for known weaknesses and be significant money ahead?

 

[RustyJC]

Please let this relative newby know whether he has it right.

VW TDI has a known issue with the HPFP - probably need to replace - cost around $600?

VW TDI needs to have ECM reflashed to remove emissions cheating code - assume at VW expense.

Would I be right to conclude that I should start looking to pick up a used VW TDI at a huge discount? Would I be right to conclude that I could make the changes needed for known weaknesses and be significant money ahead?

Perhaps, but VW cheated for a reason (probably more than one!) Consider that the reflashed VW may well have reduced fuel economy, reduced performance and reduced reliability/higher maintenance costs relative to the "cheater" VW. No one really knows how these vehicles will perform (other than VW) until the fix is implemented.

Rusty

 

[seafish]

Consider that the reflashed VW may well have reduced fuel economy, reduced performance and reduced reliability/higher maintenance costs relative to the "cheater" VW.
Rusty

This IS the real issue for us VW tdi owners. And lie the TDR VW article states, I'll also venture that the EPA/CARB is going to find a way to force us to "fix" our cars, even though they don;t need fixing. My 2013 tdi Diesel is far and away the cleanest diesel burning engine that I have ever driven. There is zero diesel smell and zero visible particulates. NOT that zero visible particulates means zero emissions, but if you combine that with the extend gas mileage andf performance, I am pretty sure that it is a win/win for me and the environment, no matter what the EPA says.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Please let this relative newby know whether he has it right.

VW TDI has a known issue with the HPFP - probably need to replace - cost around $600?

VW TDI needs to have ECM reflashed to remove emissions cheating code - assume at VW expense.

Would I be right to conclude that I should start looking to pick up a used VW TDI at a huge discount? Would I be right to conclude that I could make the changes needed for known weaknesses and be significant money ahead?

For the HPFP, it is more than just $600, that gets you a new pump with the same basic design issues as the original, I'm convinced it is a poor design.. there is a guy making kits to install the better CP3 (similar to what our trucks have), expect that to be more like $2000 to install.

The ECM fix will cause issues for the DPF and LNT (the non-DEF cars).. this will lower MPG and reliability..

I will be looking for a deal also, but I'd avoid a non-DEF car.. the SCR/DEF cars will be more easily fixed.. the ECM tune will likely double the DEF use, but that will still be easy to work with.. the LNTs will need excessive EGR to meet NOx limits.. that meet soot, clogged DPFs, more regens, turbo sooting up, etc..

Hope that helps.

I was about ready to do the CP3 pump conversion on my 2012, but when the emissions issue hit, it made more sense to trade it in for the Chevy Cruze Diesel and save the extensive time under the hood on the VW, not to mention the uncertainty of what the "fix" would do for the rest of the car, but pretty sure its not going to be good, or VW would have quietly done it already, and not have had the massive fines looming and scandal.. EPA gave them notice and years to fix it, but they did not fix it.. sad really.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Anyone want to buy an Audi A3 Quickly ?

For the HPFP, it is more than just $600, that gets you a new pump with the same basic design issues as the original, I'm convinced it is a poor design.. there is a guy making kits to install the better CP3 (similar to what our trucks have), expect that to be more like $2000 to install.

The ECM fix will cause issues for the DPF and LNT (the non-DEF cars).. this will lower MPG and reliability..

I will be looking for a deal also, but I'd avoid a non-DEF car.. the SCR/DEF cars will be more easily fixed.. the ECM tune will likely double the DEF use, but that will still be easy to work with.. the LNTs will need excessive EGR to meet NOx limits.. that meet soot, clogged DPFs, more regens, turbo sooting up, etc..

Hope that helps.

I was about ready to do the CP3 pump conversion on my 2012, but when the emissions issue hit, it made more sense to trade it in for the Chevy Cruze Diesel and save the extensive time under the hood on the VW, not to mention the uncertainty of what the "fix" would do for the rest of the car, but pretty sure its not going to be good, or VW would have quietly done it already, and not have had the massive fines looming and scandal.. EPA gave them notice and years to fix it, but they did not fix it.. sad really.

Affected Audi's are getting a GREAT TRADE IN VALUE, for a Gas Audi from Dealer

 

[Wayne M.]

I've been real keen on how engines perform under different "tunes" from the factory. One comparison TDR dudes may agree with is the difference between '03 and '04.5 CTD engines. Many say the '03 just runs better. One I can talk about is Mack's Etec VMAC III engines from 1999 to the end of prodution around 2006. These engines ran great up until 2004 when tuning changes took effect such as in cylinder EGR, these engines became plain ol dogs. Sick dogs (no pun intended) and they went away in disgrace.
Enter the EPA 2007 to current Mack/ Volvo MP8's . The '07's are okay running engines with good power but using only EGR and an active DPF, these were acceptable. In EPA 2010 trim, SCR was added and the DPF AND EGR strategy was revamped. This engine runs incredibly better and even quiter (fuel timing?).
What I hope happens for TDI owners is that the offending engines are given a decent tune that satisfies all. I think it's possible with compromise, of course at the public's expense.

 

[RGuidice]

I have a 2014 TDI (no SCR) and could care less about the issue. I wish there were more ways to screw the CARB Nazis. We don't have an emissions test for diesels so the state will have to figure out some other way to force me to reprogram.

 

[Tuesdak]

I have a 2014 TDI (no SCR) and could care less about the issue. I wish there were more ways to screw the CARB Nazis. We don't have an emissions test for diesels so the state will have to figure out some other way to force me to reprogram.

Spare ECM...
Let dealer flash spare ECM and recall is "done". Put old ECM back in and forget recall. Note no old spares will be available and with all the VIN lock stuff likely you would only be able to use a new reprogrammed ECM.

 

[crispyboy]

My guess is that when the "fix" is done to the non-def cars that they will have to be driven the same way as the 2007.5 to 2012 CTD - ok on the highway but no grocery getting. I also have my eye out for a good deal on a TDI.
We once had a 97 Jetta TDI - really liked that car but it was sold as a down payment for the Dodge CTD.