Un-crackable ECMs and Freedom in America

[Tinman]

I've been reading some disturbing post about the L5P Duramax on the EFI forum and DM forums. The ECM for the new L5P is solidly uncrackable. Of course this is a tuning issue but I think it represents some very basic issues of ownership, private property and freedom. Basically, the newer ecm's have uncrackable keys needed to do any flashing on modifying, reading, repairing, etc. I believe this is true for all the modules on the vehicle network (so you might not be able to do simple things like adjust your tires size). The dealers will not have the keys and ANY electronic issues will have to done by mother ship GM. The keys are vehicle specific and change. Obviously, this presents a huge problem for tuning. But I think this raises some fundamental issues about freedom.

Eliminating the tuning issue, this will create a cartel/monopoly of repair for GM. This is not new. John Deere has been doing this for some time but thru a contract you sign when one buys a tractor (Their ecm's aren't uncrackable yet.) This prevents farmers from repairing their own tractors and some states have legislation in the works about this. I believe GM has stated that even though you are buying the hardware of the truck, they consider the software their property and the consumer is only "leasing" it. This mean you are buying a $60 paper weight unless GM "lets" you drive it. It gets worse. The next level of security is encrypted ECM code for the purpose of remote wifi monitoring/updating. This could mean mother ship GM could update your truck remotely without you even knowing it. Or worse, take control and do anything they want. Drive you somewhere against your will??

Unlike other electronic devices, automobiles present a unique issue b/o we are physically inside the unit and it is mobility device. I believe this mandates complete ownership and control, ecm included. Further, it will be financially crippling to be completely at the mercy of the manufacturer to service/repair. American culture has love affair with cars/trucks. One reason is that it represents freedom. Freedom to travel, to race, to modify, etc., etc. It will be interesting to see where this goes, and I believe it will end up on federal court. Look into the future and the after market industry would be dead. Are people really gonna buy Corvettes so they can line up a bunch of factory cars and race the same times down the track?? No more local repair shops. No more fixing any little thing on your own. Perhaps no way to even read codes and have a intelligent discussion about repair.

I find this whole situation very frightening. I was looking forward to the 2019 Cummins with rumored EGR-less emissions. But if the ECMs are like this, I'd want to go ahead and buy a 2017 (it's looking like the 2018's may be bench flash only - which is OK, just not desirable).

 

[DavidC]

Doesn't surprise me at all. Manufacturers have been working on this for years. They want you to bring in the vehicle for everything and you be able to do nothing.

Dave

 

[HHhuntitall]

As a side note, has anyone noticed how the value of their older trucks have appreciated? Dependability and serviceability are why. The last low mileage 12v I saw was a '97 3500 ext cab 4x4.... with 24k miles on it. It's been a few years, but it sold for $24k to the first person that showed up to look at it. I constantly have people calling me looking for lower mileage trucks they can buy cheaper, so they can fix it up and drive it. The cost of anew one is so staggering, many people want to keep their old one. And if you work on your own vehicles, you know what I'm saying.....

As for an uncrackable ECM, I don't see that lasting too long. Sure it's harder, but I know guys that have been in the industry so long, they'll take it as a personal challenge. Or they'll build their own ECMs and software. That's already being done for a lot of the older trucks. It's a mechanical device, it's only as smart as the people that built it, and when it comes to OEM manufacturers, I've had my doubts for a long time how intelligent they really are..... Granted, the guys that write the software are probably contracted from overseas.... but they're doing it for the money. What else will they do for the money?

 

[GrantP]

As a side note, has anyone noticed how the value of their older trucks have appreciated? Dependability and serviceability are why. The last low mileage 12v I saw was a '97 3500 ext cab 4x4.... with 24k miles on it. It's been a few years, but it sold for $24k to the first person that showed up to look at it. I constantly have people calling me looking for lower mileage trucks they can buy cheaper, so they can fix it up and drive it. The cost of anew one is so staggering, many people want to keep their old one. And if you work on your own vehicles, you know what I'm saying.....

As for an uncrackable ECM, I don't see that lasting too long. Sure it's harder, but I know guys that have been in the industry so long, they'll take it as a personal challenge. Or they'll build their own ECMs and software. That's already being done for a lot of the older trucks. It's a mechanical device, it's only as smart as the people that built it, and when it comes to OEM manufacturers, I've had my doubts for a long time how intelligent they really are..... Granted, the guys that write the software are probably contracted from overseas.... but they're doing it for the money. What else will they do for the money?

All of this is dead on. I sold my 97 after 10 years of ownership for almost what I paid for it. I also paid a big premium for my low mileage 06 a few years ago. I think the simplicity appeals to anyone doing their own work, especially a 12V.

 

[jgillott]

I'm sure that most of you are already aware of this.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech.../26/keep-your-car-black-box-private/20609035/

On Edit: When you click the link, an ad will show up. Just click the "Continue to USAToday" button for the article.

 

[jgillott]

Also, here is a list up to 2014 of the vehicles equipped with an Event Data Recorder

http://harristechnical.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/HTS_CDR_List.pdf

 

[Bob4x4]

I've been reading some disturbing post about the L5P Duramax on the EFI forum and DM forums. The ECM for the new L5P is solidly uncrackable. Of course this is a tuning issue but I think it represents some very basic issues of ownership, private property and freedom. Basically, the newer ecm's have uncrackable keys needed to do any flashing on modifying, reading, repairing, etc. I believe this is true for all the modules on the vehicle network (so you might not be able to do simple things like adjust your tires size). The dealers will not have the keys and ANY electronic issues will have to done by mother ship GM. The keys are vehicle specific and change. Obviously, this presents a huge problem for tuning. But I think this raises some fundamental issues about freedom.

Eliminating the tuning issue, this will create a cartel/monopoly of repair for GM. This is not new. John Deere has been doing this for some time but thru a contract you sign when one buys a tractor (Their ecm's aren't uncrackable yet.) This prevents farmers from repairing their own tractors and some states have legislation in the works about this. I believe GM has stated that even though you are buying the hardware of the truck, they consider the software their property and the consumer is only "leasing" it. This mean you are buying a $60 paper weight unless GM "lets" you drive it. It gets worse. The next level of security is encrypted ECM code for the purpose of remote wifi monitoring/updating. This could mean mother ship GM could update your truck remotely without you even knowing it. Or worse, take control and do anything they want. Drive you somewhere against your will??

Unlike other electronic devices, automobiles present a unique issue b/o we are physically inside the unit and it is mobility device. I believe this mandates complete ownership and control, ecm included. Further, it will be financially crippling to be completely at the mercy of the manufacturer to service/repair. American culture has love affair with cars/trucks. One reason is that it represents freedom. Freedom to travel, to race, to modify, etc., etc. It will be interesting to see where this goes, and I believe it will end up on federal court. Look into the future and the after market industry would be dead. Are people really gonna buy Corvettes so they can line up a bunch of factory cars and race the same times down the track?? No more local repair shops. No more fixing any little thing on your own. Perhaps no way to even read codes and have a intelligent discussion about repair.

I find this whole situation very frightening. I was looking forward to the 2019 Cummins with rumored EGR-less emissions. But if the ECMs are like this, I'd want to go ahead and buy a 2017 (it's looking like the 2018's may be bench flash only - which is OK, just not desirable).

They are readable,with the flagrant abuse by tuners that delete the oems have been tasked to protect.

 

[BarryG]

This is not unique to automotive software. Most any software agreements if you read the fine print they are really just letting you use it you do not really own it. Heck look at office 365 you not only don't own it you get to pay to use it every year.

 

[Killer223]

that's why i use Linux. i'f i pay for something i own it. not lease it. truck is the same way.

 

[HHhuntitall]

And the reset button has been avoided for several decades... GM and Chrysler "dodged" it a few years ago, on the taxpayers ticket, no less. But eventually, the money will run out, and we'll get enough of paying more and more and more and more, until we can't pay anymore. Then they won't be able to sell those new trucks at $55k each, and we'll just keep on trucking in our paid for rides... if we can afford diesel....

 

[DonFitzwater]

And the reset button has been avoided for several decades... GM and Chrysler "dodged" it a few years ago, on the taxpayers ticket, no less. But eventually, the money will run out, and we'll get enough of paying more and more and more and more, until we can't pay anymore. Then they won't be able to sell those new trucks at $55k each, and we'll just keep on trucking in our paid for rides... if we can afford diesel....

I just had this talk with my wife who wanted another new truck. I finally got her to understand how much easier and cheaper it is to own older vehicles that I can work on. I don't see any new trucks in our future...............and thinking hard about getting rid of the 2016 we've got because once the warranty is up, I don't want to take care of all the emissions related crap.

 

[DavidC]

I just had this talk with my wife who wanted another new truck. I finally got her to understand how much easier and cheaper it is to own older vehicles that I can work on. I don't see any new trucks in our future...............and thinking hard about getting rid of the 2016 we've got because once the warranty is up, I don't want to take care of all the emissions related crap.

Yeah, all the electronics,DEF and pollution add on's are exactly why I still have a 99. I do not need the heated seats, steering wheel or any of the things that help drive up the price on these newer trucks and as you say I can still work on 99% of the vehicle.

Dave

 

[HHhuntitall]

And that's exactly the problem the OEM's refuse to recognize. The newer trucks cost so much to begin with, then add on the expense of repairs once warranty is up, and you'd be better off with something older you can repair yourself.... $800 a month payment, plus $1500-3500 every 4-8 months... of course, there are some good ones out there, that do run 100k without much duress, but the percentage is certainly poorer than it was 15 years ago. For me, where damage is more likely to occur offroad from a tree limb or oversized hamburger on the hoof, I can't justify $55k for a truck I can't hardly drive off the road without risk of fire. I can have three $10k trucks, and afford the repairs and maintenance for several years at that price!! And if a headlight gets knocked out, or if I get a flat, I've got another one to get in, so no AAA calls and lost downtime.... And liability insurance, since it's paid for and I'm the warranty station, is much cheaper than the full coverage insurance that won't cover the replacement cost of your new one..... -----pass-----> [soap]

 

[jgillott]

And that's exactly the problem the OEM's refuse to recognize. The newer trucks cost so much to begin with, then add on the expense of repairs once warranty is up, and you'd be better off with something older you can repair yourself.... $800 a month payment, plus $1500-3500 every 4-8 months... of course, there are some good ones out there, that do run 100k without much duress, but the percentage is certainly poorer than it was 15 years ago. For me, where damage is more likely to occur offroad from a tree limb or oversized hamburger on the hoof, I can't justify $55k for a truck I can't hardly drive off the road without risk of fire. I can have three $10k trucks, and afford the repairs and maintenance for several years at that price!! And if a headlight gets knocked out, or if I get a flat, I've got another one to get in, so no AAA calls and lost downtime.... And liability insurance, since it's paid for and I'm the warranty station, is much cheaper than the full coverage insurance that won't cover the replacement cost of your new one..... -----pass-----> [soap]

This isn't exactly a new truck, but case in point is our 2010 Ram 1500. We have started having intermittent HVAC control issues. Basically it will go from hot to cold to hot on it's own randomly. There was a recall on the 2009's and 2010's years ago to address this issue. Mine was done in December of 2010.

Spoke with the local dealer yesterday. They can't perform the recall programming again since it had been done already without authorization from FCA. The FCA rep that I talked to yesterday had absolutely no Idea what I was talking about and I actually had to email a PDF of the recall notice to them.

The only answer we have so far is that we can happily pay to have the reprogramming done which will run a minimum of $200 according to the service writer. If there are actuators that need replaced or doors that need replaced, you are talking well over a grand in dealership charges.......on a vehicle that may be worth $9000 on a trade just to make the heat work. They have you coming and going on these things.

 

[Regcabguy]

My more complex '07 has been far more dependable then my '98.5.
Sometimes the complexity pays off.

 

[HHhuntitall]

My more complex '07 has been far more dependable then my '98.5.
Sometimes the complexity pays off.

And I wouldn't doubt that.... In retrospect, the 2003-2007 trucks seem very dependable compared to the newer models.... Kinda like a 7.3 is so much better than a 6.0 Navistar. But I'll politely disagree the complexity is any better. I've several '98s, myself, three of which were 24v engines, and never gave me a minutes trouble except lift pump issues.... Now, the 2007s I have? Two of the 5.9s blew fuel lines, one stranding my mother and my Dad on the side of a highway 30 miles from nowhere, and the other had a load of cattle in the trailer.... And the latter one also has a new South Bend clutch and one piece flywheel in it, because it started having a vibration above 1500 rpm. And now the other one has started that.... slated to be fixed shortly after the first of the year. Both with less than 100k miles on the clock. One of the 6.7s has caught fire several times running offroad, although that's a given concern, and it was caught before it caused any major damage. The problems of running the 6.7 emission system off road has halted my purchase of any new trucks powered by a diesel. And the 12v trucks in my fleet?!? Just change the oil, fix the dash, and hammer down!! It's seems insane by today's standards how good those trucks are.... Most are up in the 250k range, and not showing many signs of needing anything other than paint and tires. Well, I guess I have to put windshield wipers on every years.....



And I don't want to take away from your success with your truck. I'm happy for you. But I work on these stinking things all the time, and I see so much stupid crap that goes wrong that doesn't have to..... mostly from poor engineering. Some of the ideas work great until you factor in the lowest bidder in manufacturing....