Fuel Injector Summary

[Kilowatt]

Well add me to the list of people who jumped at the ID injectors. I knew it was too good to be true but so many people recommended them on the various forums that I couldn't resist.

 

[sojoe]

WELL__I nearly did too. You are not alone.
I really do not think they knew that they were selling the wrong injectors though as doing so could ruin their reputation
A costly mistake in my opinion

 

[Kilowatt]

I sure hope so. They have offered to exchange the injectors (at my shipping expense) so we'll see I guess.

 

[sojoe]

ID screwed up shouldn`t they pay the return? They nearly caused you a lot of trouble, hard to forgive that. Lot`s of reputable injector dealers that would have made things RIGHT.
They should offer you a refund.

 

[Kilowatt]

Well I'll wait until they have the injectors in hand so they can verify they are the wrong ones and I'm not just some punk trying to scam them, then we'll go from there. I'll give them a chance to make things right.

 

[CCiatteo]

This has me concerned....I bought a set of these injectors 3 or 4 months ago and they are currently installed and have obviously been in use. When did this issue of misapplication first appear? I'll be pulling an injector this weekend to confirm the numbers on my injectors. I have my receipt from injectorsdirect and there is no part number anywhere on the order form or invoice. Has anyone returned a set of these that were actually installed?



Chris

 

[Kilowatt]

I bought mine Black Friday.

 

[bigken1971]

Thanks guys for sharing this information about these injectors. Ive been quietly watching and researching this and multipul other threads as I was looking for a way to be thrifty and $ave some money. Well after much research and debate the cheapest option I feel safe with is a reman set from BBI. So martin will be getting my buisness. p.s. I should have listened to my dad. He always said " poor people cant afford to be cheap " .

Well add me to the list of people who jumped at the ID injectors. I knew it was too good to be true but so many people recommended them on the various forums that I couldn't resist.

WELL__I nearly did too. You are not alone.
I really do not think they knew that they were selling the wrong injectors though as doing so could ruin their reputation
A costly mistake in my opinion

This has me concerned....I bought a set of these injectors 3 or 4 months ago and they are currently installed and have obviously been in use. When did this issue of misapplication first appear? I'll be pulling an injector this weekend to confirm the numbers on my injectors. I have my receipt from injectorsdirect and there is no part number anywhere on the order form or invoice. Has anyone returned a set of these that were actually installed?



Chris

 

[CCiatteo]

So I pullled my receipt and mine were purchased on October 15, 2018 and were installed shortly there after because I received my core refund, credited back to my card on November 15, 2018. Looking at my spreadsheet, I installed them on November 6, 2018 and the truck had 193,106 miles at that time. Fast forward to today, the truck now has 201,198 miles on it, the math says 8,092 miles on these injectors.

I still need to open up the valve cover and see if I can get a number off the top of one of the injectors, or pull one if necessary, I suppose. Once confirmed, I'll report back and follow up with Injectors Direct and see what their position is on the situation, if indeed I have a set of "OEM" new injectors (for an International Harvester) installed in my Dodge flavored Cummins.

Is there a Cummins or a Bosch site where I could verify the application of the injector based on the injector part number with specifications to demonstrate that the injector is being used in and application outside of its intended application? Just in case I need supporting evidence. I'm really hoping this will be dealt with in an upstanding way, if in fact, the injectors are being offered (unintentionally of course) for use in an application outside of their intended application. By all outward appearances, there was no difference in appearance. The only "red" flag to me was how they arrived in individually packaged bubble wrap sleeves, (plastic cap to protect the terminals) but I chalked that up to buying them in mass quantity? I was sort of expecting each injector to arrive in small cardboard box, with a bosch sticker on it to seal the box or possilbly across the terminals of the injector to demonstrate, brand new sealed virgin kinda thing.

I would be interested in seeing a picture of what an OEM Bosch Virgin injector in its original packaging looks like, if anyone has one? Or is that like asking for a picture of Bigfoot?

FWIW here is the page and they are still offering them for sale. I wonder......
https://www.injectorsdirect.com/product/5-9-2004-5-07-bosch-oem-brand-new-fuel-injectors/

Chris

 

[Martin_BBI]

Thanks guys for sharing this information about these injectors. Ive been quietly watching and researching this and multipul other threads as I was looking for a way to be thrifty and $ave some money. Well after much research and debate the cheapest option I feel safe with is a reman set from BBI. So martin will be getting my buisness. p.s. I should have listened to my dad. He always said " poor people cant afford to be cheap " .

Thank you very much... I really appreciate it... you will not be disappointed

So I pullled my receipt and mine were purchased on October 15, 2018 and were installed shortly there after because I received my core refund, credited back to my card on November 15, 2018. Looking at my spreadsheet, I installed them on November 6, 2018 and the truck had 193,106 miles at that time. Fast forward to today, the truck now has 201,198 miles on it, the math says 8,092 miles on these injectors.

I still need to open up the valve cover and see if I can get a number off the top of one of the injectors, or pull one if necessary, I suppose. Once confirmed, I'll report back and follow up with Injectors Direct and see what their position is on the situation, if indeed I have a set of "OEM" new injectors (for an International Harvester) installed in my Dodge flavored Cummins.

Is there a Cummins or a Bosch site where I could verify the application of the injector based on the injector part number with specifications to demonstrate that the injector is being used in and application outside of its intended application? Just in case I need supporting evidence. I'm really hoping this will be dealt with in an upstanding way, if in fact, the injectors are being offered (unintentionally of course) for use in an application outside of their intended application. By all outward appearances, there was no difference in appearance. The only "red" flag to me was how they arrived in individually packaged bubble wrap sleeves, (plastic cap to protect the terminals) but I chalked that up to buying them in mass quantity? I was sort of expecting each injector to arrive in small cardboard box, with a bosch sticker on it to seal the box or possilbly across the terminals of the injector to demonstrate, brand new sealed virgin kinda thing.

I would be interested in seeing a picture of what an OEM Bosch Virgin injector in its original packaging looks like, if anyone has one? Or is that like asking for a picture of Bigfoot?

FWIW here is the page and they are still offering them for sale. I wonder......
https://www.injectorsdirect.com/product/5-9-2004-5-07-bosch-oem-brand-new-fuel-injectors/

Chris

If you purchased MY4.5 injectors you should not have got the 007 injector as they have the MY03 spray angle of 143 degree.

If you need to proof that the 007´s are not for your application you can use the Bosch product search site

https://www.bosch-automotive-catalo..._p_col_id=column-2&p_p_col_count=1&autoLoad=1

At least you can find in the article desription that it is for 1400bar rail pressure and not for 1600bar.

If needed I can take a picuture of a OEM Bosch packaging as they come in a cardboard box

 

[cerberusiam]

Martin, could take a few minutes and describe what the effect of the 1400 bar injector in a 1600 bar system would be. What could that possibly do to the quantity\quality of the injection event? Doesn't have to be a book but a lot of us would be interested in what really happens in a mismatch like like that and the potential for subsequent engine issues.

Obviously lacking all the updates is not a good thing for longevity and it isn't what was marketed, ordered, or even expected but we really don't have a reference point to the critical impact; injection event.

 

[CCiatteo]

Martin, could take a few minutes and describe what the effect of the 1400 bar injector in a 1600 bar system would be. What could that possibly do to the quantity\quality of the injection event? Doesn't have to be a book but a lot of us would be interested in what really happens in a mismatch like like that and the potential for subsequent engine issues.

Obviously lacking all the updates is not a good thing for longevity and it isn't what was marketed, ordered, or even expected but we really don't have a reference point to the critical impact; injection event.

I'd be very interested in this as well. Would the effect (crudely stated) be similar to overdriving a stock injector to 114% of its capacity? Which I'm guessing is not good for the life of the injector or the ability to control the injection events?

Thanks for the time.

 

[Martin_BBI]

Martin, could take a few minutes and describe what the effect of the 1400 bar injector in a 1600 bar system would be. What could that possibly do to the quantity\quality of the injection event? Doesn't have to be a book but a lot of us would be interested in what really happens in a mismatch like like that and the potential for subsequent engine issues.

Obviously lacking all the updates is not a good thing for longevity and it isn't what was marketed, ordered, or even expected but we really don't have a reference point to the critical impact; injection event.

The main difference of the 1400bar setup is, that the valve spring force is adjusted to a lower value. So if you are driving at 1600bar the injector has less force left to close its valve seat.
So there is a high risc of longer and unstable injection events (bigger injection quantities and high shot to shot spread)
The risc is even higher if this is combined with some eccentricity of the grinded vlave seat to its diffusor bore. That eccentricity will cause side forces on the valve ball when it is opened causing misalignment and for that reason the valve ball has to slide eccentric into the valve seat during the closing process needing additonal force because of the friction between the valve ball and the valve seat.
Worst case is that there is a little gap left on the valve seat causing permanent leakage between ball and valve piece which will cause extreme hot spots and also abrassive wear.

 

[cerberusiam]

Ouch!! That is disturbing inasmuch as it explains a lot of issues with low quality injectors.

I am guessing that this "some eccentricity of the grinded vlave seat to its diffusor bore" may also be a large contributor in lower quality remans with a lack of QC and attention. That combined with some less than ideal injector setup on the spring pressure is why we see issues with remans that ostensibly pass standard testing.

 

[jhenderson]

Kinda like grinding a valve seat with a misaligned pilot. It never turns out well.

 

[Martin_BBI]

There are so many things that can be done wrong in the remanufacturing process if you do not exactly know what you are doing.
But that eccentricity is not one of them.
The valve seat is grinded into the valve piece at Bosch, it has nothing to do with the remanufacturing process as it can not be adjusted afterwards. But at all manufacturing processes are tolerances. Those tolerances are very small compared to any other product but they are still causing effects.
A coaxiality of 20micrometer on the valve seat is already a lot but would not cause any issues if the valve spring force is correctly adjusted for the pressure it is used.

 

[Kilowatt]

Thanks for your help here Martin. If I can get a refund from injectorsdirect.com I will be purchasing a set of BBI's (which I should have done in the first place).

 

[gsrteg83]

so I just installed my id injectors and they are 007. I did talk to Andrew the owner of id. he told me that they put 143 nozzles on the 007 cause the 238s were on backorder and he says his bosch supplier assured him they are modified to work in the 04.5 to 07 trucks. but he did offer to swap out for the 238s if I want to since he says they now have them in stock. That being said I hope martin would answer if I will be okay if I keep these in my truck or is there still a chance of a problem?

 

[cerberusiam]

See post #76. Swap them.

 

[gsrteg83]

thanks cerberusiam. you responded on the other forum to my question too.