Frame rot

[mwilson]

Just a quick thought Mark...

Can you get a chunk of hydroformed Ram frame from a salvage yard to practice on?? Then you would have some idea of the heat setting and stuff before you weld on your own frame??

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Just a quick thought Mark...

Can you get a chunk of hydroformed Ram frame from a salvage yard to practice on?? Then you would know have some idea of the heat setting and stuff before you weld on your own frame??

Great idea Mike! Guess it can't hurt to contact a few local yards. I'd imagine any 2500/3500 frame could be a donor?

 

[Learjet]

can you get a donor frame, maybe wrecked in front or back...cut out the sections you need and weld together with doubler plates? I'm not an expert....but I have seen this on some automotive shows....IIRC?

 

[mwilson]

Great idea Mike! Guess it can't hurt to contact a few local yards. I'd imagine any 2500/3500 frame could be a donor?

I would think 2003 and up?? Be a lot better to burn a hole through the practice frame if you know what I mean.....

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

can you get a donor frame, maybe wrecked in front or back...cut out the sections you need and weld together with doubler plates? I'm not an expert....but I have seen this on some automotive shows....IIRC?

Gave that a thought... not sure I could do that without removing the cab and box though.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Question about the welding process. Should anything be done besides disconnecting the batteries before welding on the truck? Any modules that should be disconnected? Any other precautions that should be taken?

 

[mwilson]

Disconnect both batteries, ground as close to the repair area as possible. And ground to the frame, spring hanger or something directly fastened to the frame channel....

 

[DavidC]

Question about the welding process. Should anything be done besides disconnecting the batteries before welding on the truck? Any modules that should be disconnected? Any other precautions that should be taken?

Very good question. I have seen more blown up electronics by not placing the ground close to the area someone is working on. I would tend to maybe disconnecting and isolating ECM and PCM to be on the safe side.

 

[mwilson]

If you unhook ECM's and such there is a risk of bending a pin upon re-insertion and thus creating a brand new issue.....

I'm 99% sure with these new electronic wonders we work on here that unhooking all batteries provides adequate protection. I am heading out to the Fab Shop right now to verify....

 

[mwilson]

Remove both positive and negative terminals from batteries, not just the negative according to my Fab guys...that’s all we do before welding on a new lift gate or anything...

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Remove both positive and negative terminals from batteries, not just the negative according to my Fab guys...that’s all we do before welding on a new lift gate or anything...

That's what I've always been told. Thanks for confirming Mike.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

I've had excellent results treating rusted metal with POR-15. When you cut out the old you can pre-treat the area with POR-15 and it should stop any future rust in that area. It's also able to deal with high heat, so even close to the weld repair should not be a problem. When you complete the welds, treat that area with POR-15 as well. It's great stuff, you don't have to have all rust removed, just the losse stuff. It chemically reacts with the rust and forms a permanent bond and prevents future rust. You can find it on Amazon, and a little bit goes a long way, I'd be surprised if it took more than a quart for the entire frame on your truck.

As to welding, an inexpensive MIG, even with flux core wire, no gas, rig is very easy to learn and could be used for this repair. If you don't have one, it's something that once you have it you'll find all kinds of new things you can make and repair. I even repaired an input spline drive shaft once, saving me the cost of a replacement part, not to mention delay it getting it, which basically has the welder paying for itself in a few repairs.

I often run 100% CO2 with solid wire for mild steel welds and it leaves a pretty clean and very strong weld bead (CO2 is actually a reactive gas, not a shield gas, and it's cheap, when it reacts is adds carbon to the weld and strengthens it). I've also run tri-mix gas for Stainless welds, a bit more complicated, but doable (I did my own custom exhaust in Stainless, as well as a kitchen vent hood for the cooktop, and a few other projects).

For your repair you can use the flux core wire, where no gas is needed. For practice you not need a frame section, any scrap metal of the same thickness of the frame, and repair section would suffice to find the right voltage/wire feed setting. For MIG that is the 2 settings for flux core.. if you use gas, then you set the regulator for flow, and that is all there is to it.

I've never had a formal weld school, but I've done all kinds of weld projects, I even fixed my multi-tool with a small weld bead and it's holding up.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Trying to be as proactive as I can here, I’m wondering if I should prime the inside of the steel I plan to weld up to the frame? Also, when grinding the paint off the existing rail, should I just remove where I’ll be welding?

 

[Wiredawg]

Trying to be as proactive as I can here, I’m wondering if I should prime the inside of the steel I plan to weld up to the frame? Also, when grinding the paint off the existing rail, should I just remove where I’ll be welding?

Yes and yes.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

A few questions on welding:

1) Have always heard to not weld vertically on a frame. True? If so, can I sawtooth the vertical edges and weld on a 45*?

2) Should everything be welded solid? The plan is to stitch weld no more than 1” - 1-1/2” at a time to limit the heat. With the repair piece being 18” long, do I make sure to weld the entire length?

3) Any other tips that would be helpful to a hack like me?

 

[SnoKing]

A few questions on welding:

1) Have always heard to not weld vertically on a frame. True? If so, can I sawtooth the vertical edges and weld on a 45*?

2) Should everything be welded solid? The plan is to stitch weld no more than 1” - 1-1/2” at a time to limit the heat. With the repair piece being 18” long, do I make sure to weld the entire length?

3) Any other tips that would be helpful to a hack like me?

When my welding/fab shop fixed the frame on my 5th wheel they disagreed with Lippert's instruction and skip welded it. 2" weld - 2" no weld -2" weld - - -. Over the cracks in the I-beans the did plug welds.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Trying to be as proactive as I can here, I’m wondering if I should prime the inside of the steel I plan to weld up to the frame? Also, when grinding the paint off the existing rail, should I just remove where I’ll be welding?

I would cover as much of the metal you can, but leave clean metal about 1/2" from the weld locations. Then touch up those following welding. Also, the aformentioned POR-15 goes on very thin and penetrate nicely and SEALS seams. The only downside to POR-15, is it's not for UV light, as in sun-light, not a problem for a frame however.. that is don't get it on your skin... it's very, very good at bonding to skin as well, it cures with moisture from the air, and apparantly moisture in you skin! Really it's good stuff, you can even use it on brake calipers, and there is a special POR-15 paint to go over it for UV protection. Did the Calipers on my 2004 Land Rover Disco 2 and they came out great.

On welds, I would concur to be cautious on vertical welds on the frame, because the heat affected zone, adjacent to the weld will be annealed in the process of high heat from the welding.. having said that, I think the frame is regular 36KSI mild steel, and as such there won't be much if any reduction in strength, you'll see the OEM has places with vertical welds. That said, if you can do it without vertical welds, all the better.

The picture above showing the correction of cracks shows how they notch out the entire crack area, and do a drill hole ate the end of the crack, this is to stop spreading of the crack, a standard repair practice for stress cracks, I too had an RV frame that was subject to recall... but I had already repaired it myself before the recall came out. My first quick fix of a simple weld seem over the crack, just cracked again.. but drilling out the crack ends and welding it, as well as fixing the cause of the excessive stress forces has fixed it permanently, I ironically looked at the recall fix, and it was almost identical to what I had already done..

Keep in mind, weld shrinkage is real, and the bigger the welds, the higher the heat, the MORE the shrinkage. a good solid fixture can mitigate some shrinkage as well, but that would be difficult for a frame repair. With the stitch welds proposed any distortion from heat is going to be minimal to non-existant. To get an under standing of what weld shinkage is, think about how hot, and molten the weld bead is, and if a good weld penetrates both base metals.. without restraint holding the parts, when it cools, it contracts, as metals do.. and it changes diminsion, or puts a pre-load stress into the base material. You can actually do welds on only one side of a material to cause, or even correct distortion (do oposing welds to bring it back if distorted by welds on the other side).

Having said all that, the frame is pretty stiff and large compared to the welds you'll need, it's unlikely to be distorted enough for you to notice.

Oh, and a 45 degree cut should be OK, but probably more effort than it's worth. If you weld the top and do a few tacks on the edges, you should have all the strength you'll ever need without the complexity of angle cuts, now if cutting out the rust leaves an angular area already, then by all means, match it for the repair section.

Keep us updated and questions coming. I enjoy these kinds of projects and keeping older vehicles alive, I recently did alot of work on my 2004 Land Rover.. and did POR-15 on all surface frame rust, but lucky for me, WA state rarely uses road salt, so the rust was superficial and no welding needed to correct.. though years back I did fix section of unibody on my 1996 Saturn that had rusted through, it had some prior life in the New England area, and as such road salt.. it got under a plastic panel under the rear passenger door and just ate completly through that steel. I cut out a 12" x 4" section and welded in a new section with my MIG, 100% CO2.

The more I think if it, my welder has had all kinds of uses over the years.. though the most hilarious use was to do an OIL CHANGE. Yep, I used a welder to complete an oil change! Pretty sure few people can say that. The used car I bought had the oil drain plug put on with insane torque, the small hex head rounded, and not even a strong vice grip pliers could grasp it.. so I took a large nut, I think about 7/8" or so.. and welded it to the drain plug.. That provided plenty of grip, and the weld heat no doubt assisted as well.. Ironically the new plug I planned to use was not compatible, so I made the weld look a bit more civilized, and that became the permanent drain plug, that is likely still on that car!

 

[MichaelOverfield]

There are some good tips in this article about frames, and welding.

https://www.trailer-bodybuilders.com/distributors-upfitters/article/21740756/tips-on-truck-frames

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Tried to find some specs for the frame steel, found that the 2019 is boasting about new 50KSI steel frame, I guess that implies prior years were not 50KSI, and then the most common steel is 36KSI steel. I'd assume that is what you have.

I did find dimisonal data from the Ram Body Builder guide, I'll try to attach.. it only goes back to 2004, but I don't think there were any frame changes from 2003 to 2004, so should be same for your's. It has the frame cross section and thickness in various places.. Of course when you dig out the rust section, you can confirm by measurment.

 

[Wiredawg]

My BIL is a master welder.... I'll take some pics of my broken tractor backhoe subframe he repaired several years ago... much better than new. Meant to yesterday, but got caught up in asphalt project.

Cheers, Ron