I think my CP4 has started to eat itself....

[Tuesdak]

Friends,

FWIW, if I was in need of a truck, I think I would low ball offer to buy the 5 or 6 chronic complainers who owns 19+ MY Ram Cummins truck and put the lucky taker out of thier misery. I simply can't imagine owning anything I didn't like or was skeered of.

I wish all of you haters the best in of luck getting rid of your trucks and joining a forum where you can hate your next BIG mistake.

CHEERS, Ron

Why are you being an apologist for the Cummins Bean Counters who are taking the Cummins reliability reputation down a notch? Cummins should have researched this before pulling a GM and making RAM owners the diesel R&D department. Their research should have rejected the CP4.2 for use in North America. Instead Cummins is going to learn the hard way while being completely ignorant to what other OEM's have already gone through and are still going through.

Many of us predicted early CP4 failures on the Cummins engines when they first hit the streets. One doesn't have to look that hard to see the BAD reputation of this pump elsewhere and Big Surprise when the CP4.2 starts dropping like flies on the Cummins engines. The CP3 didn't care if you ran low on fuel or GASP! changed the fuel filter and gave it a slug of air.

No it isn't being scared. It is simply not putting up with just another %$##$ unreliable diesel engine in a pickup. Further other OEM's possible denial of warranty on the fuel system is another risk some don't want to take. You got $12,000 laying around to drop in your fuel system if FCA denies the warranty and your insurance company screws you over as well? So one more extreme expense to own a diesel past warranty... as if the DPF and other emissions equipment wasn't expensive enough as it is. Hater is bluntly not a strong enough word to use for those of us who are calling Cummins and FCA on the carpet for going C H E A P and expecting us to do their R&D, pay for it, and put us with a loaner while we wait on parts for repairs. I believe a stronger word was used of: GM Duramax Transmission Tester... At least you can likely idle the engine, AC on, with a blown trans till the hook arrives. Unless it locks up the works or like The Real Chevy Blazer burns to the ground. The past reputation of transmissions behind the Cummins isn't exactly bulletproof.

There is a lot to love about a Cummins Diesel Engine. Watching the Gold Standard slip away is disappointing ... You know the one that made other OEM's step up their Lemon Law Writing diesels a notch in reliability.

 

[Wiredawg]

Why are you being an apologist for the Cummins Bean Counters who are taking the Cummins reliability reputation down a notch? Cummins should have researched this before pulling a GM and making RAM owners the diesel R&D department. Their research should have rejected the CP4.2 for use in North America. Instead Cummins is going to learn the hard way while being completely ignorant to what other OEM's have already gone through and are still going through.

Many of us predicted early CP4 failures on the Cummins engines when they first hit the streets. One doesn't have to look that hard to see the BAD reputation of this pump elsewhere and Big Surprise when the CP4.2 starts dropping like flies on the Cummins engines. The CP3 didn't care if you ran low on fuel or GASP! changed the fuel filter and gave it a slug of air.

No it isn't being scared. It is simply not putting up with just another %$##$ unreliable diesel engine in a pickup. Further other OEM's possible denial of warranty on the fuel system is another risk some don't want to take. You got $12,000 laying around to drop in your fuel system if FCA denies the warranty and your insurance company screws you over as well? So one more extreme expense to own a diesel past warranty... as if the DPF and other emissions equipment wasn't expensive enough as it is. Hater is bluntly not a strong enough word to use for those of us who are calling Cummins and FCA on the carpet for going C H E A P and expecting us to do their R&D, pay for it, and put us with a loaner while we wait on parts for repairs. I believe a stronger word was used of: GM Duramax Transmission Tester... At least you can likely idle the engine, AC on, with a blown trans till the hook arrives. Unless it locks up the works or like The Real Chevy Blazer burns to the ground. The past reputation of transmissions behind the Cummins isn't exactly bulletproof.

There is a lot to love about a Cummins Diesel Engine. Watching the Gold Standard slip away is disappointing ... You know the one that made other OEM's step up their Lemon Law Writing diesels a notch in reliability.

Tuesdak,

I can think of a lot of terms for what I said, but apologist isn't one of them. My point is if you don't like or trust your truck, get rid of it and dont buy one for the same reasons.

As for the gold standard, not so much...
- 1st Gen Rams had the dreaded dowel pin that did some pretty major damage when it let go.
- 2nd Gens had the crappy VP44, crappy lift pumps, AND notorious 53 blocks. I had a VP44 failure, APPS failures.
- 3rd Gen 5.9 was pretty good, minus the 48RE. and APPS failures
- 3rd Gen Early 6.7s had emissions issues (DPFs clogged mostly cuz they didn't like being driven like cars) and had VGT issues on the turbos (had mine replaced for sticking, and I kept EB on all the time)
- 4th Gen mostly complaints about SCR, DEF, and bad shifting Aisins and crappy 68RFEs, and hesitation accelerating issues (TQ Mgt). Trailer Brake controller complaints
- 19+ Rams CP4s exploding, crappy shifting Aisins, crappy 8.4 and 12.0Nav performance.

Help me out if I missed anything on the Gold Standard. You would almost think I was a hater, BUT, I'm not. I know I threw some non Cummins stuff in there, but its actually the whole package Ram and Cummins that makes the truck.

And at anytime if I ever had any doubts or fears of my Ram Cummins, I would have gotten rid of them. I did that once on a piece of crap 1990 Chevy Astro van that was built on Monday following Superbowl by a bunch of hungover, overpaid, disgruntal auto workers getting ready to go on strike. Swallowed $4K on that one.

Anhoo, life goes on and as I've said before, if something bad happened to my 17 Ram 5500, I'd be down at my Ram dealership getting a new Ram Cummins, CP4 and all.

Cheers, Ron

 

[SnoKing]

Tuesdak,

I can think of a lot of terms for what I said, but apologist isn't one of them. My point is if you don't like or trust your truck, get rid of it and dont buy one for the same reasons.

As for the gold standard, not so much...
- 1st Gen Rams had the dreaded dowel pin that did some pretty major damage when it let go.
- 2nd Gens had the crappy VP44, crappy lift pumps, AND notorious 53 blocks. I had a VP44 failure, APPS failures.
- 3rd Gen 5.9 was pretty good, minus the 48RE. and APPS failures
- 3rd Gen Early 6.7s had emissions issues (DPFs clogged mostly cuz they didn't like being driven like cars) and had VGT issues on the turbos (had mine replaced for sticking, and I kept EB on all the time)
- 4th Gen mostly complaints about SCR, DEF, and bad shifting Aisins and crappy 68RFEs, and hesitation accelerating issues (TQ Mgt). Trailer Brake controller complaints
- 19+ Rams CP4s exploding, crappy shifting Aisins, crappy 8.4 and 12.0Nav performance.

Help me out if I missed anything on the Gold Standard. You would almost think I was a hater, BUT, I'm not. I know I threw some non Cummins stuff in there, but its actually the whole package Ram and Cummins that makes the truck.

And at anytime if I ever had any doubts or fears of my Ram Cummins, I would have gotten rid of them. I did that once on a piece of crap 1990 Chevy Astro van that was built on Monday following Superbowl by a bunch of hungover, overpaid, disgruntal auto workers getting ready to go on strike. Swallowed $4K on that one.

Anhoo, life goes on and as I've said before, if something bad happened to my 17 Ram 5500, I'd be down at my Ram dealership getting a new Ram Cummins, CP4 and all.

Cheers, Ron

3rd gen frame rot.

 

[Wiredawg]

3rd gen frame rot.

Sno,

Sorry for the omission of the frame rot... it's a northern thang where they salt roads. Once, I thought about filling frame with expanding foam as it was really bad at amplifying/ resonating tire, engine, exhaust system sounds. It might would have prevented frame rot too.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Jim W]

Single piston for the smaller engines, it depends on the displacement of the engine, not on the count of cylinders

@Jim W
If your VW is specd as ours you'll find a fuel return cooler under the vehicle, usually right under the passenger seat area.
It's a flat aluminum heat sink design.

Ozzy, I haven't been under Jill's car except at the VW dealership to inspect an item on the suspension when it was up on a rack. Yes, the car could have an AL fuel cooler but my point is fuel is still being used to cool the CP4 pump. If the fuel is so low that you are about to run out, than the fuel can't be cooled fast enough and the likely hood of gunk being picked up on the bottom of the tank is higher. I don't know what the designed exchange rate is on the fuel system for her car is?

But, when I was designing hydraulic system we were always trying to achieve a turn overrate about 3 to 4 tank full of fluid in a certain time period to prevent foaming and aeration of the fluid. The machines also had fluid coolers with hydraulic temperature controlled fans that drove air across the coolers. But still the fluid temperature in the tank/engine would rise after going through the coolers, we always relied on some fluid for a heat sink in the tank, which would absorb some of the fluid heat also.
Just saying!

 

[AH64ID]

If you look at the different CP3 applications a fuel cooler was standard on some, Duramax, and not on others, Cummins. So was there really a need on a the cooled application? CP3 location and under hood airflow temps may have played a part in that thou, our CP3 is much more exposed to good airflow.

I wonder how much cooling actually happens after a hour or two on the road regardless of tank size. The fuel pump moves upward of 45 GPH at pressure, yet we only burn 2-3 GPH on average. All the fuel is going to be heated quickly when you consider the temp rise from under hood environment, compression, and traveling thru the head. Not all fuel that returns goes thru every step thou.

Ram certainly appears more concerned with heating fuel then cooling it, 2 heaters and no cooler.

I ran insulation on my exposed fuel filter on my 05, and did so year round as I wasn’t worried about hot fuel, but if someone was concerned about heat they could probably find one of those “cool collar” oil filter coolers. They are normally used on oil/air cooled motors.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[SnoKing]

Sno,

Sorry for the omission of the frame rot... it's a northern thang where they salt roads. Once, I thought about filling frame with expanding foam as it was really bad at amplifying/ resonating tire, engine, exhaust system sounds. It might would have prevented frame rot too.

Cheers, Ron

Regard the 1st gens, I had a 1993, and it had weak brakes for it's weight and lacked a lock up torque converted.

On the 2001.5 the OEM torque convert had to high of a stall speed. I got to buy a VP-44 IP, and built a custom transmission twice. transmission gear hunting was an issue. Other than that, I loved the truck.

Now the 2015!

 

[Jim W]

Tuesdak:
Do you know what the failure rate is on the Cummins Engine with the CP4 fuel pump installed? I don't?

I also believe that Six-Sigma is employed in most major corporations, such as Cummins and what every FAC is called today. Six-Sigma is use to define the reliability numbers of their products, and drive solutions to an issue, if the reliability numbers are not there (failure rate is high).

I could be wrong and naïve in this assumption, but I think the CP4 fuel pump is more of an internet failure issue than it really is a actual component failure. If it was such a disaster as you think than Cummins would be doing a redesign and stop production of the 6.7L Cummings GCI engine until the redesign is released to production. Especially since all Cummins revenue is derived from engine sales and parts!

I know Caterpillar would do this on their machines since I was involved with serval stop machines productions and redesign of components in my 40 years at Cat.

 

[Ozymandias]

Fuel gets quite hot in the tank, go under it and touch it after an extended drive.
Tank surface even dries from it after driving through rain, so warm it is.

So at least VW was/is concerned about the temperture that they install that heat sink.
Europeans drive their tank usually till the light comes on to go to the cheapest station around.
I don't know the flow rate of VWs lift pump but could find out.

 

[Wiredawg]

I'm just throwing spaghetti on the wall in my assumption the fuel cooling occurs as soon as it leaves the CP3, sounds like you can feel it cooling by touching the brass (?) lines. And I imagine all the surface area around the tank contributes to cooling at speed. And I agree don't run below 1/4 tank of fuel... even on my gassers.

So, sounds like a lot of elements to consider in fuel heating and cooling.

Very interesting conversation.

Cheers, Ron

 

[AH64ID]

And I agree don't run below 1/4 tank of fuel... even on my gassers.

This isn't something I've ever subscribed to as a rule. All my vehicles can get driven until around when the light comes on. The wife runs hers even lower...203K and counting on her 03 4Runner with the stock fuel pump.

Maybe 40 years ago fuel pumps didn't like the heat, but modern fuel pumps aren't something anyone thinks about on a regular basis, and I bet less than 1% of drivers try to fill their tanks before they hit 1/4 tank to keep the fuel cooler.

 

[Jim W]

John the fuel pumps of 40 years ago were for the most part much more simpler in design, I believe these were bolted on the the side of an engine with a lever going up and down (like a well pump) with an internal diaphragm that fed a carburate, as an example. I know my old 1969 1500CC VW had that design. Today with the fuel injections systems plus the high fuel pressures required. The fuel pumps are a little more sophisticated such as Rotary or Axial driven and rely on a fluid to lubricate the pump and cool the pump as friction cause heat.

I have learned long ago to keep the fuel tank at least 1/4 tank full. If for no other reason not to run out of fuel when you are on the road.

 

[SnoKing]

Tuesdak:
Do you know what the failure rate is on the Cummins Engine with the CP4 fuel pump installed? I don't?

I also believe that Six-Sigma is employed in most major corporations, such as Cummins and what every FAC is called today. Six-Sigma is use to define the reliability numbers of their products, and drive solutions to an issue, if the reliability numbers are not there (failure rate is high).

I could be wrong and naïve in this assumption, but I think the CP4 fuel pump is more of an internet failure issue than it really is a actual component failure. If it was such a disaster as you think than Cummins would be doing a redesign and stop production of the 6.7L Cummings GCI engine until the redesign is released to production. Especially since all Cummins revenue is derived from engine sales and parts!

I know Caterpillar would do this on their machines since I was involved with serval stop machines productions and redesign of components in my 40 years at Cat.

Yep, MBA's have ruined many companies.

 

[Wiredawg]

This isn't something I've ever subscribed to as a rule. All my vehicles can get driven until around when the light comes on. The wife runs hers even lower...203K and counting on her 03 4Runner with the stock fuel pump.

Maybe 40 years ago fuel pumps didn't like the heat, but modern fuel pumps aren't something anyone thinks about on a regular basis, and I bet less than 1% of drivers try to fill their tanks before they hit 1/4 tank to keep the fuel cooler.

Yep, your probably right about folks running until low fuel lamp comes on and no harm to the equipment. Old habits are hard to break... and we have 100s of thousands collective miles on equipment without fuel pump failures, minus my VP44 and a couple lift pumps on my 02 before installing a FASS. I reckon no problems either way on the fuel light. I didnt want to retrain my wife about 1/4 tank fill up. Heck, she even fills out the fuel log on her truck.... am I good or wut?

Cheers, Ron

 

[Rob S]

This isn't something I've ever subscribed to as a rule. All my vehicles can get driven until around when the light comes on. The wife runs hers even lower...203K and counting on her 03 4Runner with the stock fuel pump.

Maybe 40 years ago fuel pumps didn't like the heat, but modern fuel pumps aren't something anyone thinks about on a regular basis, and I bet less than 1% of drivers try to fill their tanks before they hit 1/4 tank to keep the fuel cooler.

I’m a 1%er

 

[AH64ID]

John the fuel pumps of 40 years ago were for the most part much more simpler in design, I believe these were bolted on the the side of an engine with a lever going up and down (like a well pump) with an internal diaphragm that fed a carburate, as an example.

While there were likely still some mechanical fuel pumps in the early 80’s the transition to electric fuel pumps started in the 70’s. These were not as reliable as their modern counterparts. Thou many things were also more reliable 40 years ago

I have learned long ago to keep the fuel tank at least 1/4 tank full. If for no other reason not to run out of fuel when you are on the road.

That’s just planning. I’ll fill up at 3/4 of a tank if I need the fuel, I just don’t have rule about not using the last 1/4 of a tank of the circumstances allow... which they normally do on a daily basis.

 

[dieselshadow]

Warm (or even hot to the touch for us) fuel is actually conducive to better fuel atomization therefore a better more complete burn. Lubricity isn’t lost at warmer temps, but viscosity will be lower. I’m sure that was taken into consideration during engineering and test phases. Hot fuel is not a concern in a diesel.

Gasoline is a different story.

 

[AH64ID]

Warm (or even hot to the touch for us) fuel is actually conducive to better fuel atomization therefore a better more complete burn. Lubricity isn’t lost at warmer temps, but viscosity will be lower. I’m sure that was taken into consideration during engineering and test phases. Hot fuel is not a concern in a diesel.

Gasoline is a different story.

To go along with this the only Cummins fuel coolers I’ve seen use coolant to “cool” the fuel. So really they just stabilize the fuel temp at the coolant temp, not only cool it. Depending on the application it could be a fuel warmer or cooler.

 

[JR]

If you look at the different CP3 applications a fuel cooler was standard on some, Duramax, and not on others, Cummins. So was there really a need on a the cooled application? CP3 location and under hood airflow temps may have played a part in that thou, our CP3 is much more exposed to good airflow.

I've noticed this also, and wondered if it was because DMax doesn't (or didn't) use a lift pump to circulate fuel.

 

[Bug Out]

What did you steer then towards?

A Ram is still the only truck I’d buy new today.

My daughter loves GMC trucks so I told her stick with those. You get a Allison even with a 2500 diesel, unlike RAM have to order the 1000Ft tq motor to get AISIN now. Plus, they are not running the CP4. Plus both ways. I Love the AISIN and will not go back to the 68RFE.