Dealer experience: Does this sound logical?

[Crunch]

I replaced the ECM on my truck several months ago. Works fine, but the replacement ECM has been tuned, and while I half to admit I love the power, if I step into it the truck blows black smoke. I posted here and learned that a full reflash will set it back to stock.

So then I had the brilliant idea that I could save the $170 for a reflash and the cost of a rental car by having the out of park recall done. I recently got another reminder for that recall and scheduled an appointment to have it done. Dropped the truck off and got my free loaner. A few days later I got a call from the Service Tech telling me that they can't download the software from corporate and they couldn't do the recall. Picked up the truck and when I got home I called the Dodge recall help line and talked to a customer service rep. They couldn't tell me anything specific, but took my number and then called the same dealership and talked to the Service Manager. They called me back and told me that the Service Manager said they should be able to do the recall and suggested that I talk to him.

Is it logical that a safety recall could expire and the software pulled? I also wonder if my recall flash attempt could have been handled by the Service Tech and the diesel mechanic without them ever speaking to the Service Manager about not being able to do it. Now I am skiddish about pushing this. I've heard that a reflash can sometime brick an ECM when it's been tuned, and I don't want to be in a position where my ECM is dead and the dealer won't replace it. So does the response and feedback I received make sense? If there is a significant risk that I could be left high and dry I will probably live with it and just do my best to not force too much fuel into the engine. That works about 95% of the time, but sometimes when passing and other times, well...you know how it goes.

 

[Ozymandias]

I'd try again.
You'll hate your tune a lot on higher elevations.
I de-tune mine every time i go above 5000ft of elevation for a longer time. It smokes so badly then.

 

[AH64ID]

You should be able to get it to take a flash. Where did you buy the ECM from?

@Ozymandias we need to get you a custom tune, even towing at 8K feet I wouldn't get any smoke out of my 05 once it had a good tune on it.

 

[Crunch]

I'd try again.
You'll hate your tune a lot on higher elevations.

You should be able to get it to take a flash. Where did you buy the ECM from?

I think I will try it again. I've still got the case # from my call to the recall line, but it's going to have to wait until after the Thanksgiving and Christmas season. I'll call the Service Tech and see if she remembers me, and see if she can talk to the Service Manager or let me talk to him. I can't afford to have the truck crap out on me now because of a recall snafu. I got the ECM locally from a place called DieselECM. They told me they can't reprogram it. I just find it hard to believe that a safety recall can expire. I've also still got my original ECM that has been repaired a few times by SIA Electronics under their lifetime warranty. It still needs to be repaired again, but I'm not sure how many more times they can do that though. The last time it came back to me it had a strip of metallic tape across the top, which indicates to me that the corners are starting to wear out because it's been folded open for repairs every time they work on it.

 

[AH64ID]

Did you have the new ECM updated with your VIN?

 

[brods]

I feel your pain about the tune. I ran a smarty for quite awhile, trying endless combinations of settings, but the constantly watching the mirrors for smoke and the right foot always having to be restrained by the smoke output, took all the fun out of it. Been back to stock for years now. The smarty, even on the lowest settings, had trace smoke all the time. I believe that part of the issue was soot building up in the exhaust while driving normally. Then when you do get on it the smoke is much worse because it blows out the built up soot in addition to the soot coming out of the engine. I could be way wrong, but iirc the third injection event (on the 2005 anyway) was for reducing smoke and the smarty did away with the third injection event. That might be why there was so much soot build up in the exhaust. <Shrug>

I doubt the E17 out of park recall has expired. I can't recall if the ECM got reflashed too or if it was just the instrument panel that gets reflashed. Don't forget that in rare instances the recall can brick your instrument panel. Before getting the recall done I'd ask the service manager (and/or Dodge customer service) what would they do if that happened to your truck during the recall. Are new instrument panels still available for the 2003? Will they cover all the associated costs and how long will a replacement take to get? Etc.

Since you said the original ECM is covered under warranty, getting it repaired again will give you more options how to proceed. Maybe ask the repair place if they can reflash your tuned ECM back to stock and, if they can, could anything go wrong when they reflash it?

 

[AH64ID]

@brods the 3rd injection event is for emissions, not smoke. It’s job was to keep the NOx levels down by changing the way the combustion occurred. It also could increase smoke and did increase EGT’s.

Smarty stock tuning is more prone to smoking, they run a bit more timing that I do on custom tunes and that can lead to low load haze.

It is 100% possible to eliminate the 3rd even and have a smoke free tune. The tune I built/ran on my 05 dyno’d at 415/850 and made less smoke than the stock tune.

 

[brods]

A white paper long ago is where I got that idea from. Something like this one: https://www.mne.psu.edu/rfdl/Pubs/Refereed/2013_OConnor_IJE2.pdf Post Injections for Soot Reduction in Diesel Engines: A Review of Current Understanding.

That is not to say you are incorrect or that it applies to our trucks. I can't recall if I read something else more specific to our trucks or not, and it is not worth chasing down since it is all ancient technology at this point.

 

[Wiredawg]

After reading this thread, I get a hint of deception with the dealer in not mentioning the tune on the ECM and trying to get it reset to stock tune under safety TSB. Is all this really worth saving $170? And then more or less calling out the dealer on the logic of their initial handling of it. I'd just pay the $170 and everyone is on the up and up.

Ron

 

[AH64ID]

A white paper long ago is where I got that idea from. Something like this one: https://www.mne.psu.edu/rfdl/Pubs/Refereed/2013_OConnor_IJE2.pdf Post Injections for Soot Reduction in Diesel Engines: A Review of Current Understanding.

That is not to say you are incorrect or that it applies to our trucks. I can't recall if I read something else more specific to our trucks or not, and it is not worth chasing down since it is all ancient technology at this point.

Good find.

It may have some effect on soot production, but on my truck it didn’t. Another coworker still has an 05 and it smokes like a freight train, and is stock. Then again soot production and visible soot may not correlate 100%. My stock truck put soot into the oil like no other Diesel engine I’ve seen.

The biggest thing they were fighting emissions wise in 04.5-07 was NOx. Major soot reduction came with the DPF at the 6.7. Not to say they weren’t reducing soot/particulate matter, just that NOx appeared to be the main goal in emissions reductions.

 

[sag2]

It's been a long time back, but I ran into a truck at Orange Coast Chrysler that the technician could not get to flash. After lots of back and forth the customer said he had purchased the ECM from Cummins, not Chrysler. It turns out that a Cummins supplied ECM uses a different protocol and can not be flashed with a DRBIII. The customer had to purchase another OEM ECM to get the truck up and running.

 

[Crunch]

Since you said the original ECM is covered under warranty, getting it repaired again will give you more options how to proceed. Maybe ask the repair place if they can reflash your tuned ECM back to stock and, if they can, could anything go wrong when they reflash it?

Two different companies. SIA Electronics has been repairing the OEM ECM, while DieselECM is the vendor for the "backup" (now primary). DieselECM said they couldn't reflash the ECM because all they do is the hardware work. I called them as soon as I noticed the tune.

After reading this thread, I get a hint of deception with the dealer in not mentioning the tune on the ECM and trying to get it reset to stock tune under safety TSB. Is all this really worth saving $170? And then more or less calling out the dealer on the logic of their initial handling of it. I'd just pay the $170 and everyone is on the up and up

I don't see any deception on my part. Just two paths to the same destination: The out of park recall. Getting rid of the tune is just a byproduct of that result. I pay the $170 for a reflash I still end up with the recall being done, and it's irreversible. I get the work done under the color of the recall and I get the ECM reset to stock, plus any other software updates that have been released since I bought the truck. If I could get it reflashed without ending up with the recall I'd definitely go that route, as I don't want the recall. But if I am going to get stuck with it either way, it doesn't make any sense to me to pay for it.

It's been a long time back, but I ran into a truck at Orange Coast Chrysler that the technician could not get to flash. After lots of back and forth the customer said he had purchased the ECM from Cummins, not Chrysler. It turns out that a Cummins supplied ECM uses a different protocol and can not be flashed with a DRBIII. The customer had to purchase another OEM ECM to get the truck up and running.

I don't think that's the case here. I'm pretty sure that it's just a tuned ECM.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

When trying to lower NOx in the cylinder, the strategy is to reduce excees O2 and temperature. This is where EGR comes in, (also intake throttle valves), EGR is O2 depleted air that is injected to lower O2 levels, and there is this fine line where if you lower O2 to zero, you do get lower NOx, since there is no O2 left to combine ith N2 to produce NOx, but any fuel not used because the O2 has been depleted is now left to become soot, which is incomplete fuel burn. An additional injection event to use up any remaining O2 before the exhaust leaves the cylinder, is a way to reduce NOx, but it will almost certainly produce some sooty smoke, which is what you are seeing.

The Diesel Cat will reduce some smoke from the tailpipe, it's not as efficient as the DPF, obviously, but it will help. On these older trucks that are seeing the smoke, I have to wonder if they have put on an aftermarket exhaust that deleted the Diesel Cat from the system.. that might be a factor as well as the tunes. It would stand to reason that elimination of the 3 injection event should lower soot from the tailpipe, but might well increase NOx, you can't see NOx emmissions, but when there are enough it does produce the brown smog in places like LA, but you'd never see it leaving the tailpipe.

 

[Wiredawg]

I don't see any deception on my part. Just two paths to the same destination: The out of park recall. Getting rid of the tune is just a byproduct of that result. I pay the $170 for a reflash I still end up with the recall being done, and it's irreversible. I get the work done under the color of the recall and I get the ECM reset to stock, plus any other software updates that have been released since I bought the truck. If I could get it reflashed without ending up with the recall I'd definitely go that route, as I don't want the recall. But if I am going to get stuck with it either way, it doesn't make any sense to me to pay for it

I guess I'm reading this as "if I dont tell them the ECM has a tune on it and as the result of the dealer doing the no cost recall reflash that it'll take it back to stock, which is what I want to happen. You expect they will want to charge you $170 if you tell them its tuned versus them just saying OK, you're right it's free as done as a recall, and we agree no charge. And what they dont know won't hurt them or me. Am I understanding correctly?

Now I am skiddish about pushing this. I've heard that a reflash can sometime brick an ECM when it's been tuned, and I don't want to be in a position where my ECM is dead and the dealer won't replace it.

I'm no expert on ECM tuning, although 1 tuned a 2nd Gen, an 03 Ram and an 09 Ram with a Smarty. I share your same concern about the dealer potentially screwing up your ECM thinking all they are doing is updating a stock ECM versus them knowing the ECM is tuned out of stock and that they might would approach the reflash differently or at least tell you it might not work and could crash your ECM, resulting as a dead truck sitting at the dealership.

Maybe that helps understand at least from my perspective the dealer knowing all the facts could benefit you both.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Crunch]

I guess I'm reading this as "if I dont tell them the ECM has a tune on it and as the result of the dealer doing the no cost recall reflash that it'll take it back to stock, which is what I want to happen. You expect they will want to charge you $170 if you tell them its tuned versus them just saying OK, you're right it's free as done as a recall, and we agree no charge. And what they dont know won't hurt them or me. Am I understanding correctly?

For the most part you are understanding it correctly. Either path I choose I am getting stuck with something I don't want, i.e. the recall. The dealer frequently sends me notices that the recall hasn't been performed and that I should schedule an appointment to have it done. If I take them up on the recall I save $170 + vehicle rental for the time they have the truck. As for, "what they don't know won't hurt them or me", if they asked me if the ECM was tuned I wouldn't lie to them and would tell them exactly what I know. I also don't know if they will see that it has been tuned when they begin the reflash. It's entirely possible that they will, especially if they do a prescan before the reflash. At that point they could notify me that they can't do it, or require me to sign some kind of agreement. So from my perspective I am accepting something I don't want at all--the irreversible recall, in exchange for something I do want. The dealer's solicitation for the recall simply provides me with a way to get what I don't want at all without having to paying for it. If I could get the reflash without getting stuck with the recall I'd pay for it without hesitation.

 

[Wiredawg]

Crunch,

Copy and agreed. I guess your other ECM can be a backup if somehow the programming/ECM craps out on the one on your truck. Hope it works out well for you. Please let us know outcome.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Ozymandias]

All recalls for the Gen3 work flawless and are therefore a Plus.

..or how often you are backing up with the door open while doin so?

 

[Crunch]

..or how often you are backing up with the door open while doin so?

Pretty much only when hitching up a trailer. When I back up the truck I center it, then check to see how much farther back I need to go before it's under the hitch. Then I open the door and use the ground as a landmark to get the last few inches. I suppose I could just look out the window for that, but old habits die hard.

 

[seafish]

Pretty much only when hitching up a trailer. When I back up the truck I center it, then check to see how much farther back I need to go before it's under the hitch. Then I open the door and use the ground as a landmark to get the last few inches. I suppose I could just look out the window for that, but old habits die hard.

Or simply get a wireless remote back up camera that you can use to drive right in on the hitch for about $120 proably even less nowadays!!!

For examplem this one is a little more expensive bout has 85% positive reviews out of 1500 on Amazon

Amazon product ASIN B0035WSQEC

 

[brods]

Two different companies. SIA Electronics has been repairing the OEM ECM, while DieselECM is the vendor for the "backup" (now primary). DieselECM said they couldn't reflash the ECM because all they do is the hardware work. I called them as soon as I noticed the tune.

.....

I got that. You said DieselECM cannot reflash so why not ask SIA Electronics if they can?

For stopping the E17 recall notices, just check the box on the recall notice that says it has been taken care of and send it back. It worked for me.

All recalls for the Gen3 work flawless and are therefore a Plus.


..or how often you are backing up with the door open while doin so?

Flawlessly? Sure, lol. For me the worst case scenario would be cracking the door to back out of the driveway in the early AM because the mirror hasn't defrosted yet. I'm sure the neighbors would love the horn honking at 5 AM.


E17 was always a sorry excuse of a patch job to make up for the root cause of the problem, the flat spot between park and reverse on the rooster comb in the transmission.

When trying to lower NOx in the cylinder, the strategy is to reduce excees O2 and temperature. This is where EGR comes in, (also intake throttle valves), EGR is O2 depleted air that is injected to lower O2 levels, and there is this fine line where if you lower O2 to zero, you do get lower NOx, since there is no O2 left to combine ith N2 to produce NOx, but any fuel not used because the O2 has been depleted is now left to become soot, which is incomplete fuel burn. An additional injection event to use up any remaining O2 before the exhaust leaves the cylinder, is a way to reduce NOx, but it will almost certainly produce some sooty smoke, which is what you are seeing.


The Diesel Cat will reduce some smoke from the tailpipe, it's not as efficient as the DPF, obviously, but it will help. On these older trucks that are seeing the smoke, I have to wonder if they have put on an aftermarket exhaust that deleted the Diesel Cat from the system.. that might be a factor as well as the tunes. It would stand to reason that elimination of the 3 injection event should lower soot from the tailpipe, but might well increase NOx, you can't see NOx emmissions, but when there are enough it does produce the brown smog in places like LA, but you'd never see it leaving the tailpipe.

Are you sure you're not thinking of gasoline engines? One of the advantages of diesels is the ability to run lean. Using post injection to use up all the leftover oxygen would seem to be counterproductive. It also does nothing for the main combustion event, where maximum heat is produced with an abundance of free oxygen available for NOx production. But what do I know? So lets go to the experts. Most of the studies talk of pre injection as the way to reduce NOx is a diesel.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1110016817302041

4. Split injection with smaller amount of fuel injected in first pulse is observed to slow down premixed phase of combustion with a significant reduction in NO emissions.

5. Split injection with larger quantity of fuel injected in first pulse has shown simultaneous reduction of NO and soot emissions.

6. Split injections were observed to be superior in controlling NOx emissions compared to increasing EGR levels and retarding injection timings without a great penalty on engine performance.

There are plenty of papers like this: https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2002-01-0502/

The main objective of the study described in this paper is to explore the potential of different post-injection patterns, with a plain common rail system, for reduction of soot emissions in HD diesel engines.

Or this: https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8537&context=etd

Post injections occur after and are smaller than the main injection. Small post injections that occur near TDC, increase the burn rate of main injection fuel, resulting in decreased soot emissions {25}. Post injections near TDC are advantageous to maintain fuel conversion efficiency {26} in contrast to late posts used for active DPF regeneration and additional soot reduction. Closed-coupled post injections can dramatically reduce engine-out PM with the use of EGR rates of up to 44%. In a recent post injection study at ISU, results indicated that post injections offer improved soot reduction to that of ultra-high injection pressures when applying massive EGR. The use of post injections at medium load conditions can reduce engine-out soot by up to a factor of two allowing for the use of decreased fuel injection pressures. By improving the fuel conversion efficiency, close-coupled post injections can reduce the engine BSFC for operation with high EGR {18}

At least now I know my memory isn't totally unreliable, yet...


As for the speculation on differences in individual trucks, mine has always had and still does have the cat. Part of the difficulty is that different people will have different tolerance levels for smoke. Some even like "rolling coal" for whatever reason. I want to be able to accelerate however I please without leaving a ball of smoke when pulling away from a stop sign or leaving a trail of smoke while accelerating down the road. The smarty sure woke up the truck, but it smoked too much under heavy acceleration for my taste. That level of smoke might be fine for someone else, though any visible smoke risks triggering the diesel haters now a days.


Crunch, sorry for getting your thread so far off topic.