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AC evaporator and (probe)

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Copy that, understood (I think).
If I understand correctly, you believe that if the sensor had failed (open, out of range, etc.) that the AC pump would not cycle at all? If that is the case my issue would be either with sensor placement or something else (wiring, controller, etc.)?
You bring up another question that has been the "elephant in the back of my mind": for as long as this has been going on, should I replace the evap core?
I have a bunch of work to do to this truck, and should have it inside the shop this week to get started on it.
I appreciate your input, sorry I'm not very knowledgeable on the electronics side.
 
Bobbycat: There's a few possibilities for root causes involving ice-over conditions / ice-over event.

What we don't know is, whether it's a fault at the sensor input side (electronics / systems engineering) or, if it's a controller related fault (I've had this occur due to missing solder at J2 on all the pins) or whether it's external in the mechanical side such as the pressure switch and / or fluid medium (a refrigerant related anomaly).

At one time in the past on this thread, I think I listed those failure modes out. It is easy for me to go back through records to find that information and put it up front.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One other issue is buying trucks that were modified by prior owners. Raise your hand if you fall into that category please... Over the years, I've seen and read and witnessed on my own rig - Hack & Whacks R-US, modified the entire HVAC system. I had a mix-match of, incorrect pressure switch off another type of vehicle (Durango) compounded with a hacked open controller sporting one PN on the case while having replacement CCAs that were most likely purchased off of e-Bay to chopping and splicing wire-harnesses (very common hack) to tapping power off HVAC lines (poor choice - noise enters the system and faults at controller) to what I found to be, incorrect condenser core mounted at the front.

It was a shop in Jackson TN who pulled a Patch Adams in order to get a complete truck together thus, he and his son pulled parts from whatever vehicles they had on hand. This was what happened to me and why the A/C never worked properly. However, there were definitely some design related issues right off the assembly line that were freezing up along with a controller design issue thus, later on, updated revisions were rolled out of engineering after a number of ECOs hit the design team.

Two things that I noted that were indicative of this were the EVAP CORE envelope to probe length was changed. I also listed this out in a prior comment. Thankfully, it's all listed for easy recall later as needed including PNs.

So, what we don't really know but, can be tested, is what your controller is seeing from the thermistor. We can simply test that thermistor assembly outside the vehicle. If one has a good scan tool like the dealerships sport (very expensive, custom programmed rack-mount rigs on wheels), they can access all the data and it will show them if the controller is cycling the compressor along with reading its inputs.

That's the most comprehensive test to run however, not all shops have those custom rigs. This type of test allows the tech to see all parameters and also, to execute certain commands. some of the upper end hand-held OBD tools also sport those features. This will allow one to test each section without taking the vehicle apart.

In my case, I gutted the entire cab down to sheet metal in a restoration project and completely disassembled the dashboard down to bare frame while gutting the HVAC system 100% thus, how I was able to test the thermistor outside the vehicle and rebuilt the HAA ASSY (metal doors) as well as all outfitting the HAA system with new seal material to avoid dry-rot in the future. I don't feel like tearing it apart in 5-years when it dry-rots again. I, like you, prefer to do it right once.

I'll have to wade through the old material herein this thread and review some of the material applicable to your questions.
 
B-Cat: We can also test that thermistor in the vehicle while running to see what its voltage is - going from normal (AMBIENT TEMP) temp while the EVAP CORE cools down via backprobing the connector feeding out to a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) set to Volts DC. This is one DIY method of a few that we can employ without having to tear-down the HVAC system.

Regards,
CM
 
Christopher,
I did read through the entire thread, and appreciate all the information it provided. The truck that I'm working on was purchased from the original owner (and he didn't add or modify anything on the truck). I should have asked more questions when I bought it when he casually mentioned during the transaction "the AC ices up sometimes on a hot day". It very well may have done it since he got the truck new, and beings he didn't pay for the truck (a sponsor bought it for him), he may not have been as concerned about it. I will test it per the test you laid out in this thread when I get it in the shop.
I have considered upgrading to the metal doors and cranks, but all of mine still work as far as I can tell almost 20 years later, I'll know more after I get the heater box out. What did you use to replace the crappy foam that the OEM uses to seal everything? I have had several heater boxes out and it seems like every manufacturer uses the same rotting foam.
I have a 1996 12v manual (was a 5 speed, now NV5600) that I repainted a few years ago and stripped it down to bare metal to do so. I really questioned at that time if I should go find a Ford Superduty to put the power train in after getting to know the Dodge that intimately. Still not sure if I made the right decision putting the Dodge back together...LOL
 
B-Cat: We can also test that thermistor in the vehicle while running to see what its voltage is - going from normal (AMBIENT TEMP) temp while the EVAP CORE cools down via backprobing the connector feeding out to a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) set to Volts DC. This is one DIY method of a few that we can employ without having to tear-down the HVAC system.

Regards,
CM
Okay, I will try that first before I tear anything apart.
I will probably ping you with questions when I get to that, but I will read back through this thread first.
Thank you
 
B-Cat: We can also test that thermistor in the vehicle while running to see what its voltage is - going from normal (AMBIENT TEMP) temp while the EVAP CORE cools down via backprobing the connector feeding out to a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) set to Volts DC. This is one DIY method of a few that we can employ without having to tear-down the HVAC system.

Regards,
CM

IMHO you should change your forum handle to "ACEngineer" and go by "ACE" for short !!!!
 
As far as I know the Dual Zone blend doors have never been that prone to failures then the standard ones.
Most of them work fine the entire vehicles life.
Knock on wood...
 
STATUS UPDATE: I will be re-reviewing all raw component TDS sheets for the components selected last year along with re-reviewing the modeling done in the past for specifications and plot curves that match the OEM profile for the raw component that Bosch used to manufacture into the OEM ASSY Part No 5140727AA. I remember mapping out the curve for this last year when we were working this and doing some preliminary testing on the OEM ASSY in order to establish a 3-data-point plot to input into the modeler in order to extrapolate the rest of the data points without having to run into the rel lab and run thermal testing. I'm certain the model is close to the OEM profile based on other data points recorded. I'll dig out the notes and specs and start looking for the rest of the materials such as thermal pastes and thermal transfer rates for the appropriate potting compounds for this application and so forth. So far, the probe is the most difficult to locate. It's critical that length and diameter be as close as possible to the OEM probe specifications in order to operate properly with the controller.

Regards,
CM
 
Chris,
That sounds good. If another sensor didn't match physically but did functionally; is there any reason that a mount couldn't be made for the thermistor if it was too long, etc?
 
Chris,
That sounds good. If another sensor didn't match physically but did functionally; is there any reason that a mount couldn't be made for the thermistor if it was too long, etc?


1. The mechanical envelope is critical as we want to get a reading at or, as close as possible to the center of the EVAP CORE as possible.

2. Thermistors, typically by design, are not intended to be subjected to moisture and / or direct contact for HVAC systems. While certainly other types are intended for direct contact, those involve other applications.

3. The thermistor is typically installed inside of a probe at the very tip and environmentally sealed to prevent what is called intrusion.

4. These components typically need to be mechanically and electrically isolated and are quite prone to mechanical as well as thermal shock and electrical-noise. Dropping or subject to impact shock, thermal shock, electrical shock = bad news thus warrants R&R 100%.

5. Thermal shock = bad news. Subjecting thermistors directly to say, open flame = BAD / Catastrophic Failure will ensue. Exceeding upper and lower t-rating = bad news. Typically destroys them depending on how far exceeded.

6. Mechanical contact is critical in thermal-transfer rate to ensure temperature is transferring optimally as possible. Poor transfer rates equates to higher lag time or, what is called Response Time. This can lead to serious consequences at the EVAP CORE. If one were to select a shallow depth compounded with a smaller diameter, one is going to experience inaccurate readings fed out to the controller - late readings or, readings that may end up being erratic and sporadic (jumpy) thus, the controller will struggle in general. If one chooses a probe diameter that is grossly larger than the allotted spacing in the EVAP CORE fins allow, mechanically, displacement and / or possibly, inducing mechanical damage to the core plumbing. Slightly larger dia is not be an issue as the fins are somewhat compliant. This is the OEM design intent - snug enough but, not loading stress into the fins or, the probe body.

7. If one were to exceed the specified length, you're going to move away from the ideal mount location thus, you're going to have the same problem as a sensor body that is too short. Six-of-One, Half-Dozen-of-The Other scenario. Moving the probe body in or out from the centerline in either direction = negative results.

8. Electrically - the type, the profile, and many other variable must all match to the OEM component. This system as are most, are not designed to be plug and play like light bulbs. Each component is designed around a controller circuit - and, each controller circuit, from year to year, varies as does the thermistor used. This is why folks on this site have experienced what I had described would occur when using other thermistor assemblies from other OEMs - the scale is way off and not a match at all thus, it would never function properly.

Thermistors have both, power and current ratings for a specific circuit along with dissipation curves and all sorts of impedance characteristics not too mention the upper and lower limit intended to match the end-use-environment application. You've got dissipation constant, thermal time constant, max power at ambient to the type used - negative or positive pending controller design (typically negative associated with HVAC). As one can see, there's a lot more than meets the eye regarding physical envelope. Everything must match as close as possible to ensure the controller will not only function circuit wise but, be fed accurate readings to minimize risk of mechanical damage from events like ice-over events. Those are really hard on the EVAP CORE and can lead to serious and very costly repair bills when one blows and contaminates the entire system.

Summary:
Ideal location in this type of application: close to center as possible = optimum results

Regards,
CM
 
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that there might be two different controllers depending on which sensor the truck had. I replaced the controller and pulled the hvac out to change all the doors. I put everything back in and started having issues with the system cooling and the compressor cycling on and off. Thought I had a restriction so I changed everything out (compressor, accumulate, liquid line, and condenser). Still having the cycling on and off. Pressures are where the are supposed to be freon level is correct.
Started looking at the at the evap sensor. Cut a hole pulled it out of the box and everything Started working like it was supposed to. Went to the local pick and pull today and found a truck that had the same sensor( the one that goes into the fins) and installed it and does the same thing. After reading this thread I think that I might have the controller for the other temp senor that gets the reading from airflow.
Question is could I just splice the other sensor connector and put the other sensor in the box.
Or if someone has the two P/N for the controllers. I could see if that is my problem.
 
2006 dual zone
Ok.. these were problematic - Dual Zone Systems (HAD) and, for some reasons unknown, either one of two failure modes were persistent:

FM1: ICE OVER
FM2: CYCLING OF COMPRESSOR

Please give me a few moments to review the design changes for, my memory isn't what it used to be and it thinks it recalls a design change which included an air-flow temperature type of thermistor vs. surface contact thermistor type. I seem to recall this being phased out of the 2005.5 ---> into the 2006 transition phase wherein, a design change at both, the EVAP CORE and THERMISTOR was updated. Problem is, not knowing WHEN this was phased in exactly. Reason being, on some of the early 2006 models, particularly, on the Dual Zone models, many were still sporting the prior configuration.

Lemme see what we can do here.

Regards,
CM
 
Christopher McKenna Thank you so much!!!!
I have been fighting my ac early year model 2006 ram Cummins, long long story but got down to the unavailable thermistor, put used one in, still had issues thought was in my controller put a new one in yesterday....Then compressor short cycling so much so wasn't cooling very well! I was at my wits end with this thing then I read all your posts here about it, turns out my new replacement controller was the problem!! Fixed the connection issue on my old controller put it back in and it's working as it should!!! Thank you so much for taking time to research and understand how it is supposed to function!
 
Christopher McKenna Thank you so much!!!!
I have been fighting my ac early year model 2006 ram Cummins, long long story but got down to the unavailable thermistor, put used one in, still had issues thought was in my controller put a new one in yesterday....Then compressor short cycling so much so wasn't cooling very well! I was at my wits end with this thing then I read all your posts here about it, turns out my new replacement controller was the problem!! Fixed the connection issue on my old controller put it back in and it's working as it should!!! Thank you so much for taking time to research and understand how it is supposed to function!

Glad to hear things worked out. These were problematic controllers (mine had missing solder 100%) quality control was super lacking at the Surface Mount Process (SMT). This is an area of speciality for me - electronics side of things. This is where things typically are rooted when electronics don't work properly. Either it is a quality control issue during manufacture or, worse, it is an escape out of engineering that doesn't work to which, there's not really any resolution without updating to the latest revision control system.

Regards,
CM
 
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