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Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

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Throttle Position Sensor Quandary or FUBAR?

Just went for another test drive today after I did some work installing a new pipes and boots for my intercooler(no boost leaks). Float shifting is a no go, but the closer to 2500 the less grinding I get pushing it into 3rd and 4th. Double clutch down shifting is a bit more doable for those gears but not always consistent.

5th and 6th felt great, No issue getting into those or double clutch down shifting to 5th. @bcbender how many miles did you go on your blown pilot bearing? I'd like to believe at the very least I can make this trip 1100mi trip grinding 3rd and 4th.

I have brake pads coming in next week that I've been in great need of and a brake fluid flush to do. I think im going to pull the trigger after I get that done and test drive it. If I notify them on Friday or Thursday, take sat and Sunday to get down and drop it off at the beginning of the week I should be in good shape.
 
Worst its going to do is damage the slider ring or the gear engagement teeth and the 3/4 synchro's I went 40k miles until all he11 broke loose but did a lot of gear damage along the way due to misalignment... If you drive it just skip third... or start in 3rd and skip 4th. It can be done on an empty truck, stay on the highways and avoid stopping except to get diesel and pee.
 
Finished my Pre-trip inspection. Heading out in the early morning. Wish me luck.

If I don't make it back its because the plane went down, My truck goes to my twin sisters as stated in my will if you want to buy it. Expect me to be haunting it.
 
Got in last night, Texas is large..... All the deer waiting watching traffic go by on the highway gave me mini heart attacks.

Made it in one piece without much issue (irregular tire wear) but my shifting issues worsened after I filled up right before crossing the Mississippi River. 5th gear began grinding aswell in the up shifts and double clutch down shifts. At that point I was 360mi out aprox. from STG. Not wanting to risk a break down on the final stretch on I 20 West; I kept it in 6th for the remainder of the trip and cannon balled it. Trans temps stayed around the 180 - 190 degree range. Clutch release bearing or intermediate (floater) plate started rattling a different tone. There are now three distinct volume levels for the rattling, something has changed.

I'll be at STG first thing tomorrow morning, they're 5mins away from the Hotel.

STG arrival.jpg
 
She's in better hands now. Just dropped off Gina at Standard Transmission and Gear around 8:30am. Took it for a test drive with a tech and made sure all the issues I had were observed.

Gave them the packet of info I wrote up for Pure Diesel on removal and installation and sent them an email summarizing all my symptoms and driving conditions on my 1100 mile trip down here as well as the running condition of my truck with any relevant information.

They'll be going through both the transmission and transfer case, I told them to take their time and put as many miles on it as they need to verify everything is working as it should. I'm going to catch my flight back tomorrow and wait for updates.

Man this has been an ordeal. But im hoping for positive news about what went wrong.
 
Flight just got back in yesterday, good to be back home. Still awaiting news. One of the potential issues the tech mentioned on the test drive as the cause besides bad synchro's, was a bent shift fork or rod; I forget which one but he said the component was aluminum. All still speculation until the second tear down is completed. As usual.... I'll post all the pictures and paraphrase the correspondence here.

On another note when I was talking to Kevin at the front counter about my trip and where I'm from, he mentioned that they have quite a few parts suppliers in Charlotte.
 
Well..... I got an update from Standard Transmission and Gear today. Trans and Transfer case will be back in tomorrow morning and test driven after a very speedy turn around. I almost wish I stayed a few more days in the hotel but I told them no rush take as long as you need, but it needs to be done with 100% confidence and understanding as to what went wrong; and what's being done differently to rectify the issues observed.

I've got to laugh else I'll go sane....

Transmission Tear down (no pictures because nothing is destroyed)

3rd 4th and 5th synchro's are being replaced. The ones that came out are just fine. The engagement teeth on those gears are perfectly sharp even with that horrid grinding. The most likely cause of the grinding in those gears primarily 3rd and 4th in the up shifts and double clutch down shifts is too much fluid. The 3rd and 4th gear selection ring/collar are on the counter shaft which is underneath the main shaft. This means that majority of the counter shaft was nearly submerged or completely submerged in oil. The synchro's weren't catching because of the excess fluid, and the temperature of the fluid. The fluid took hours to heat up with my coolers (more on this later). I hope none of you have to know the pleasure of what the synchro's feel like, but if you look at the pictures I posted earlier. They look to have a fine texture ( I believe when new, versus more coarse with wear near the edges of the rings) They feel that way too, and they catch using friction. With the amount of oil in there and at the temperature it was, there was little to no friction which is why there isn't any damage.

Here is a picture of the gear assembly for visuals Counter shaft is on the left, main shaft is on the right.

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There were 9 quarts of oil in this transmission at STGs request when I called over the phone giving details on my prior setup and running conditions before the first rebuild. There were 9 quarts in the transmission because I told STG I had fluid coolers on my trans and my new fill capacity was 7 quarts. This was calculated by me knowing the capacity the fluid coolers added. Those being the Trans cool coolers sold by Genos. Two coolers increase your oil holding capacity by 1 quart. 1 cooler adds half a quart because they aren't hallow and have cooling fins on the inside taking up space and transferring more heat. The miscommunication between what I told them and what they understood was that STG assumed I was running the Fast Coolers instead of the Transcool coolers. The fast coolers are completely hollow each individual cooler holding 1 quart. Two Fast Coolers giving you an additional 2 quart capacity of fluid. This is where the recommendation for 9 quarts instead of my correctly calculated 7 quarts came from. I didn't think anything of this or question it because im talking to the experts on these transmissions.

Why was I running 7 Quarts with the two Transcool Coolers?

Here is the math.

OEM Stock oil fill amount for an NV5600 (4x4 or 4x2) is 9.5pints which is 4.75 quarts. 5 quarts rounded.

Trans cool Dual coolers added 1 quart total to the fluid capacity. So we now need 5.75 quarts to be at the stock fill level or 6 quarts rounded

I do a 1 quart over fill as widely recommended and needed on both the G56 and NV56 transmissions. We are now up to 6.75 quarts calculated, 7 quarts rounded.

I've been running 7 quarts of oil on this transmission with the stock single disk and dual coolers no problem.

9 quarts of oil is nearly double the stock trans fill amount. Keep in mind the more fluid you have the longer it takes to heat up. Just as it takes longer to boil a pot of water compared to a table spoon.

My 1100mi drive down there further confirms this with my transmission temperature gauge. It took me hours to get my transmission up too operating temp at highway speeds. My operational temp was from 180-190 * Fahrenheit, I stayed around 130 - 160 within the first 8 or so hours of the trip. My oil capacity was too high, and the transmission coolers were too effective at that capacity.

Transfer case Tear down (No pictures, because there is no damage internally)

Transfer case was split open and disassembled for inspection and reassembled. Nothing internally damaged or out of round from whatever happened in the back of R&L Carriers' party bus.

Summary and Conclusion

Final confirmation that the oil amount was the root cause of my shifting issues is pending on the test drives they preform after re-installing the Transmission and Transfer-case. I was told the synchro's that were installed on the first rebuild will be kept for me examine. I'll post pictures of those undamaged synchro's compared to the old ones prior to the rebuild.

This is a very simple lesson in fluid dynamics. The amount of fluid matters and the temperature of the fluid is critical. You can be too cool. Luckily for me there was no damage inside the transmission because everything was so coated and cold. Other systems may not be as durable. i.e. differentials, Automatic trans with heat exchangers removed and deeper pans, power steering systems, oil coolers, lower engine temp thermostats.

If anyone frequents the YouTube channel Watch Wes Work, you might have seen his video on the hierarchy of reliability. The most reliable to the least reliable in this order. Mechanical, Hydraulic, Electrical, and finally the least reliable Human operator. The miscommunication between two humans about the components the transmission was equipped with lead to an improper amount of fluid being used inside the transmission potentially being the sole cause of the shifting issue in the transmission.
 
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Well..... I got an update from Standard Transmission and Gear today.

The most likely cause of the grinding in those gears primarily 3rd and 4th in the up shifts and double clutch down shifts is too much fluid. The 3rd and 4th gear selection ring/collar are on the counter shaft which is underneath the main shaft. This means that majority of the counter shaft was nearly submerged or completely submerged in oil. The synchro's weren't catching because of the excess fluid, and the temperature of the fluid. The fluid took hours to heat up with my coolers (more on this later). I hope none of you have to know the pleasure of what the synchro's feel like, but if you look at the pictures I posted earlier. They look to have a fine texture ( I believe when new, versus more coarse with wear near the edges of the rings) They feel that way too, and they catch using friction. With the amount of oil in there and at the temperature it was, there was little to no friction which is why there isn't any damage.

Here is the math.

OEM Stock oil fill amount for an NV5600 (4x4 or 4x2) is 9.5pints which is 4.75 quarts. 5 quarts rounded.

I do a 1 quart over fill as widely recommended and needed on both the G56 and NV56 transmissions.

9 quarts of oil is nearly double the stock trans fill amount. My oil capacity was too high, and the transmission coolers were too effective at that capacity.

Summary and Conclusion

Final confirmation that the oil amount was the root cause of my shifting issues is pending on the test drives they preform after re-installing the Transmission and Transfer-case.

This is a very simple lesson in fluid dynamics. The amount of fluid matters and the temperature of the fluid is critical. You can be too cool.

.

Actual capacity is 1 gallon, verified by changing oil every 36k miles on a 365k mile truck. Factory measure is probably with the transmission siting level on a bench. Mounted in the truck, the angle will remove some capacity. I use one gallon and that's it, I never overfill.

I also recommend you ditch the Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid. It is too slippery, the NV5600 does not like it. I tried it one time with poor results. I use 15w40 diesel engine oil, but that is me.

I recommend you try the factory fill, Pennzoil Synchromesh. Copy and paste synchromesh info.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Pennzoil® Synchromesh fluid is a manual transmission fluid designed for certain manual trans axles and manual transmissions used by general motors or Chrysler.

  • #ad

    Exhibits excellent low-temperature performance
  • #ad

    Excellent synchronizer performance
  • #ad

    Meets GM specification 9985648 and Chrysler specification MS-9224
  • #ad

    Excellent yellow metal compatibility
 
never had a lick of trouble at +1qt in my NV5600. ofcourse I did not calculate it, I am old school, filled it to the OEM fill point, then added one more. After that I made a dipstick for my DR side fast cooler to check with the OEM level as the MIN and the +1 qt as the MAX... not sure why they would say 3-4 was because its submerged on the counter, all of them are that way even at the OEM fill level. Some trans are silky smooth and some not, my friends 05 shifts like a car, mine never did before or after overhaul and with / without the +1qt. Hope its fixed for ya now tho.

BTW on that picture the labeling of "5th" is incorrect, 5th is direct off the input gear with the slider locking the main shaft and input together, the gear labeled "5th" is just the drive gear for the counter shaft and has nothing to do with 5th gear operation... I took mine apart and went trough it, its quite a piece of work with alot going on in there.
 
If you or Standard want the NV5600 overfilled, why not just fill it to the factory level then add the recommended overfill amount? This would take out any chance of overfilling the overfill.

Did you get the pocket bearing lube mod?
 
Actual capacity is 1 gallon, verified by changing oil every 36k miles on a 365k mile truck. Factory measure is probably with the transmission siting level on a bench. Mounted in the truck, the angle will remove some capacity. I use one gallon and that's it, I never overfill.

I also recommend you ditch the Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid. It is too slippery, the NV5600 does not like it. I tried it one time with poor results. I use 15w40 diesel engine oil, but that is me.

I recommend you try the factory fill, Pennzoil Synchromesh. Copy and paste synchromesh info.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Pennzoil® Synchromesh fluid is a manual transmission fluid designed for certain manual trans axles and manual transmissions used by general motors or Chrysler.

  • #ad

    Exhibits excellent low-temperature performance
  • #ad

    Excellent synchronizer performance
  • #ad

    Meets GM specification 9985648 and Chrysler specification MS-9224
  • #ad

    Excellent yellow metal compatibility

With all due respect, there wasn't anything wrong with my math for how much fluid to use or what fluid I was using. As stated before I had no issues with my 7 quarts which is stock fill level with my coolers and a 1 quart over fill. This isn't a shot at STG but in general when other people started getting their hands on my truck for work things started going wrong real fast. In all the work that I've done myself (injectors, turbo, injection pump, front main, rear main, oil pan, hub assemblies, etc. the list goes on...) I've not had any debilitating issues to the running condition of my truck.

If I change anything, it'd be removing a cooler on the passenger side drooping my capacity by half a quart. Or installing a heater blanket on the bottom of the trans or a heater element in the factory fill hole. I'll ask STG about it when I pick it up.

I'm going to stick to what I was doing before, because nothing was wrong with it.
 
not sure why they would say 3-4 was because its submerged on the counter, all of them are that way even at the OEM fill level.

There was just way to much oil sapping any and all heat away, and the coolers just didn't help at that oil capacity.

BTW on that picture the labeling of "5th" is incorrect, 5th is direct off the input gear with the slider locking the main shaft and input together, the gear labeled "5th" is just the drive gear for the counter shaft and has nothing to do with 5th gear operation... I took mine apart and went trough it, its quite a piece of work with alot going on in there.

I'll take your word for it, this was the best diagram I could find as I was typing it up quickly, I tried my 03 FSM but apparently its a secret. Even though it has rebuild instructions from top to bottom.
 
If you or Standard want the NV5600 overfilled, why not just fill it to the factory level then add the recommended overfill amount? This would take out any chance of overfilling the overfill.

This is exactly what I did. I filled to the factory levels with my coolers and added one additional quart. No issues, no problems. If the topic of coolers didn't come up in the conversation I had prior to its rebuild, I would've put 7 quarts back in it no problem and this thread would have been finished. Just an honest miscommunication.

When the trans was sent down to Texas for the first rebuild the coolers were taken off out of concern for shipping damages.

Did you get the pocket bearing lube mod?

I'll ask specifically, but I'd assume the standard rebuild process includes any upgrades and improvements.
 
If you have the lube mod there is no longer any need to overfill it. ( Aside of increased capacity from coolers) STG, here, did recommend a different oil.

Never had any trouble one quart above the filter hole.
 
If I change anything, it'd be removing a cooler on the passenger side drooping my capacity by half a quart. Or installing a heater blanket on the bottom of the trans or a heater element in the factory fill hole. I'll ask STG about it when I pick it up.

I'm going to stick to what I was doing before, because nothing was wrong with it.

Yes, don't use the factory recommended oil because it might work. Heater blanket or heater element?
 
Yes, don't use the factory recommended oil because it might work.

I use 15w40 diesel engine oil, but that is me.

?

The oil brand/type used wasn't the issue. Four things changed after the first rebuild on my transmission. Gears, Bearings, Synchro's, and oil amount. Upon inspection by STG when I drove the truck down, the gears, bearings, and synchro's were fine. Leaving only the oil amount in question. If its not broken don't fix it.

The amount of oil was the only thing completely different after the rebuild excluding new hard parts that were functioning as they should.

Considering all the time, money, effort, and back laying labor I've put into getting a working clutch into this truck. I'm not about to change what I know and has been confirmed to work. Standard Transmission and Gear use Amsoil products, there's a display rack if you walk in the front sales office of Manual Synchro mesh, and in one of the pictures of the tear down from them you can see a gallon jug of Amsoil Signature Series multi vehicle ATF in the background. If they told me to use anything else I would, no question, they open these units up and put them back together all day. I don't.

At this point if they told me I had to put on a wig and make the tryouts to be a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader to make my trans work I would do it. I want it done. 100%. No BS I don't know answer. An objective answer that makes sense is what I got (hellva better answer than what Phoenix Friction gave me) Too much fluid, it was staying so cold that there wasn't enough friction and heat for the synchro's to catch.
 
Standard Transmission and Gear called. Truck is ready, no grinding. They put 20 miles on it roughly. I told them to test drive it as long as they like till I catch a flight back down to pick it up. When I get down there I'm going to find some back roads and put some heat in it before I turn 1100 miles back home.
 
Back in Fort Worth after a 2hr flight, picked up my truck at 8:30am and went for a test drive with Joaquin, No grinding in 3rd and 4th upshifts at all which is great.

But I'm back to square one prior to the rebuild(s) with not being able to down shift (double clutch or standard down shift) into 3rd and 4th. The clutch assembly is the last variable left, my down shifting issues started with it after installation exactly 3,317mi ago. After talking it over with STG I'm giving up on the dual disk and warrantying it out for a South Bend Clutch 1947-OK-HD single disk organic. Talked to Landon at South bend about it and I have a single disk organic w/FW on the way, they'll credit the dual disk when they receive the RMA with the parts.

I'll be staying in Fort Worth till the single disk is installed. STG didn't have one in stock with a FW and the Dual disk FW isn't compatible. It was more time efficient to get a priority mailed kit from South Bend than have STG send out an inventory order. 3-4 days out if UPS doesn't destroy the package contents en-route.

I could've had two to three built automatics for the money I've shelled out in parts, labor, and travel expenses to attempt to get a working clutch in this truck... I'm disgusted.

My 6am Airbus A321 flight out of CLT reached cruising altitude at 34,000 feet, If push comes to shove 34K is the price tag.
 
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