Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

plan to use the truck.

My plans are fluid, I'd like to pull but after getting a few quotes for commercial insurance for my own authority its not going to be financially feasible.

I'm still considering leasing on but insurance rates are rising and for a truck with as much age as mine it's becoming less and less of a possibility with decent companies to choose from.

I'm leaning more towards getting a in bed transfer tank and a few more tools for road side assistance and fuel delivery, im pretty setup for it already and I have plenty of experience from mobile mechanic work. My skill set, knowledge, and equipment put me in a better position to go this route, it's more financially feasible as well. Sticking my neck out and diving into transport right now isn't a bet I can stomach after the amount I've spent thus far on the power unit.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

With 3.73's and the 285/70R17's that the OP is running 3rd redlines at ~40, 4th at ~ 58, 5th at ~81, and 6th at ~111.

70 is 2000 in 6th and 2770 in 5th, which is difficult to grab.

I've never gone past 75mph in 5th or 95mph in 6th.

Redline is 3200 correct? when I down shift for uphill climbs into 5th gear I'll hold 5th anywhere from 65mph to 70mph unloaded.

Realistically it's difficult to overtake and pass class 8 trucks in 5th as far as I'm willing to push it.

 

[bcbender]

yeah, I really never downshifted (in) much above 2500... no need to rev the 4ell out of it... I would occasionally run up near the top climbing grades 27-2800 RPM as I could get close to 60 in direct but that was the only times... normally Id shift up/dn around 24-2500. As has been said, the 5600 does not row fast / quick and is hard to sync at max RPM

 

[Darkbloodmon]

yeah, I really never downshifted (in) much above 2500... no need to rev the 4ell out of it... I would occasionally run up near the top climbing grades 27-2800 RPM as I could get close to 60 in direct but that was the only times... normally Id shift up/dn around 24-2500. As has been said, the 5600 does not row fast / quick and is hard to sync at max RPM

Said XJ 4x4 friend has talked to me about re gearing if I'm considering 35s but if those are your speeds with 4.10s I'll just stick with 3.73s it sounds more drive-able in comparison.

What's the benefit of 4.10s? I know its not an apples to apples (x times more gears in the trans) but from my understanding alot of class 8s have 3.73s.

 

[bcbender]

Class 8 also have more gears... IMHO for my 17k 5er the 4:10s were fine, lower EGTs and towing was a breeze.. but it was RPM limited to about 90 in 6th and 60 in direct... that's it, and alot of the time i was running 2200-2500 RPM... No exhaust drone but above peak Tq and efficiency. I considered changing to 3:73 but regearing would never be a cost benefit. I ran 34s but not 35s gears are not an issue.

 

[AH64ID]

I've never gone past 75mph in 5th or 95mph in 6th.

Redline is 3200 correct? when I down shift for uphill climbs into 5th gear I'll hold 5th anywhere from 65mph to 70mph unloaded.

Realistically it's difficult to overtake and pass class 8 trucks in 5th as far as I'm willing to push it.

Unloaded you probably don't need to downshift into 5th for hills.

Yes, redline is 3200.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Unloaded you probably don't need to downshift into 5th for hills.

Sounds about right, on my trip down when 5th gave me issues I left it in 6th gear for the last 300 some odd miles into Fort Worth fearing a break down from the horrid noise.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Driving around town today running errands and I have a chirp at idle in neutral and in gears matching given engine speed from the bell housing that goes away with light to full pedal pressure on clutch.

It's a shame its not a belt chirp, I'm going to power wash the rest of the mud from the underside of my truck tomorrow. Maybe its some grit that got in from the bell housing slit.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update post 500mi break in after returning from Standard Transmission and Gear, Fort Worth Texas.

1947 OK HD was installed by STG at 234,369mi
My current mileage is 236,097mi

There are 1,728mi on the clutch, 536 of those miles have been city driving after my return from Texas.

I've got what sounds like all the same issues of the Phoenix Friction Kevlar disk now on top of not being able to down shift at street speeds into 4th gear. Holding the shifter at the 4th gate with pressure will allow it to go in at arpox 35mph and down as If I was float shifting.

The clutch rattles like a dual disk when cold on first starts, less when its warm but it still does it while warm as well depending on how you let out the clutch in neutral. This rattle can be heard in the lower gears until you get about 25mph aprox. The clutch groans and vibrates loudly (more so than the stock Mopar LUK single disk) in 1st 2nd an reverse without throttle input, with throttle input, and will continue until a faster engine speed is reached.

Traveling in 3rd or 4th and pushing in the clutch sharply creates alot of noise and clunking/ assembly moving in the bell housing and bucking in the truck. It should be a smooth disconnect as the engine and transmission are being separated, its sounds like the movement of the floater plate on the dual disk.

There is a chirp/squeal/whine from the bell housing in neutral and in the gears that does not go away with engine speed, but will quiet with slight pedal pressure on the clutch.

This clutch should be silent on engagement and disengagement, the rattle at idle when cold and in neutral is telling me that the clutch is not evenly holding the flywheel, the bucking and clunking when pushing the clutch in while in 3rd and 4th lets me know its not leaving the flywheel evenly.

What's the end play spec on the crank shaft and is there a way to check it on the truck? Correct me if I'm wrong but the pressure plate on this clutch kit is a 3250lb. I'm thinking along the lines of my thrust bearing be worn allowing the crank to walk just enough to change the distance of the clutch assembly mounted to the flywheel away from the release bearing and fork when the inertia of the truck and components change from acceleration.

Thoughts? Now that I've gotten the break in specified miles I'm going to call south bend about this. I'm about ready to start looking for a used Honda CRF or XR dual sport to commute with because this is ridiculous. I'm livid.

 

[BigPapa]

The clutch groans and vibrates loudly (more so than the stock Mopar LUK single disk) in 1st 2nd an reverse without throttle input, with throttle input, and will continue until a faster engine speed is reached.

Traveling in 3rd or 4th and pushing in the clutch sharply creates alot of noise and clunking/ assembly moving in the bell housing and bucking in the truck.

This sounds to me like you're lugging it.

I'd suggest you go with the XR650L.

 

[bcbender]

The clutch rattles like a dual disk when cold on first starts, less when its warm but it still does it while warm as well depending on how you let out the clutch in neutral. This rattle can be heard in the lower gears until you get about 25mph aprox. The clutch groans and vibrates loudly (more so than the stock Mopar LUK single disk) in 1st 2nd an reverse without throttle input, with throttle input, and will continue until a faster engine speed is reached.

This clutch should be silent on engagement and disengagement, the rattle at idle when cold and in neutral is telling me that the clutch is not evenly holding the flywheel,

Sounds like gear rollover? My clutch was the same one and over 50k miles always made noise and rattle, gear rollover when in gear idleing (lugging)...

X2 on the CRF, I ride my CRF250L to work and back its quite nice.

 

[AH64ID]

I agree that it sounds like normal clutch rollover noise.

 

[GCroyle]

I agree that it sounds like normal clutch rollover noise.

This is where the skills of the clutch company, designer, engineer and the final tuning and testing of a disc really earn their pay. The clutch envelope package, torque capacity, engagement etc are pretty straight forward but the relationship of the engines power characteristics and the transmission requires a marriage counselor, AKA the Torsion Damper.

I gotta believe that today computer software, sensors and test equipment has or did make a real contribution of marrying the damper to the powertrain. It takes very specific driving skills and observations to give a damper a thumbs up and get the OE contract $$$$ etc. In the early '80's I was a wrench tech at Sachs for the engineer to "tune" the damper for the final presentation and sign off. One of the project cars was a Daytona front wheel drive. He had a special disc with a damper that allowed disassembly changing the main damper springs, preload damper springs, internal friction material or hub preload the chase a problem out and sometimes let a new one sneak in.

One of the engineers standards was no evaluation until trans was at operating temp. That meant driving for a while to warm it up, then a series of standard driving and shifting exercises but the one test that you can repeat easily is the brick wall noise evaluation. At trans temp pull next to a solid brick wall close enough to touch it. Window down, engine at idle, trans in N now listen then push the clutch pedal down and as soon as the disc spins down that noise should be engine only cause nothing in the trans is turning. So compare pedal up vs down in N for ONE of these evaluations. Now change the engine gas vs diesel, or the trans fluid, it all changes. But change the torsion damper from one originally designed for the factory built powertrain to a system designed to sell to an aftermarket customer that wants MORE HP and torque etc and it's a totally new ballgame. Damper test curves can de-code the damper a bit.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Lets put sound and noise aside for now. Why can't I down shift into 4th? I don't have a 50K mi warranty on the trans rebuild or the clutch assembly. If the noise is normal how come I can't get into 4th now on the highway and on the street?

But change the torsion damper from one originally designed for the factory built powertrain to a system designed to sell to an aftermarket customer that wants MORE HP and torque etc and it's a totally new ballgame. Damper test curves can de-code the damper a bit.

You think the harmonic balancer is the problem? I'm currently using a Fluidampr 920301. Can you explain in laymen's terms why it would be affecting the clutch assembly over the stock rubber isolated one.

So compare pedal up vs down in N for ONE of these evaluations

Neutral clutch in, everything is silent all I hear is the engine. Clutch out noise.

 

[BigPapa]

You think the harmonic balancer is the problem? I'm currently using a Fluidampr 920301. Can you explain in laymen's terms why it would be affecting the clutch assembly over the stock rubber isolated one.

The Torsion Damper is the sprung mechanism that makes up the clutch hub, not the Engine Damper.

This web page describes it well.
https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/products_29298.html

 

[Darkbloodmon]

The Torsion Damper is the sprung mechanism that makes up the clutch hub, not the Engine Damper.

This web page describes it well.
https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/products_29298.html

Ahh, makes more sense. I'm a bit off today with a bad headache.

I looked at the hub assembly when It was delivered to STG while in Texas, its a six spring unit.

 

[AH64ID]

Neutral clutch in, everything is silent all I hear is the engine. Clutch out noise.

Without hearing the sound and being there that is classic gear rollover.

SBC had a pdf on their website about it that was very informational, but I cannot find it right now.

 

[GCroyle]

In the quest for upgrades that can handle more power etc the components that add drivability and minimize NVH issues are often cast aside.

 

[AH64ID]

In the quest for upgrades that can handle more power etc the components that add drivability and minimize NVH issues are often cast aside.

For sure.

On my 05 I was able to play with pilot timing and quantity to reduce rollover noise as well as overall engine noise to a level that had similar rollover to stock and lower combustion noise than stock.

 

[GCroyle]

The engineer I worked with at Sachs told me that if he tuned a damper for a new near zero miles car and then maybe at 50K Miles he could tune a different damper to accommodate the now broken in engine and trans wear.

He was a pretty cool guy and you could learn from him. He also was head man on the 1st gen 13” cast iron clutch for the Dodge. It was derived from an existing MB straight med duty truck.