19+ Oil Grade selection... not a brand war

[Diesel Gunner]

One of the improvements is the continued lowering of heavy metals in the additive packages that are pollutants to all of the aftertreatment equipment. They are replaced by new and improved additives that are more expensive and perform better. As base oil and additives improve, so does performance and price.

 

[Tuesdak]

Cummins, Ford, GMC spend millions in testing and design of their products. I’m betting they know what works and what don’t.

And @Diesel Gunner

Maybe. History is also littered with their minor and EPIC screw ups. The people who know may get overridden by Bean Counters, marketing, etc.

GM is well known for their R&D being: "what's in your wallet" as they turn things loose on their unsuspecting customers. The older AFM, Active Fuel Management, cylinder deactivation engines are known to clog the lawnmower engine sized PF48 oil filter and get low oil pressure warnings... Some FCA vehicles also use, and clog, the PF48 oil filter. If the silly small filter doesn't contain the timing chain debris as it comes apart on some 3.6L GM engines with cam bearings as part of the head: the engine requires replacement. It's more cost effective than trying to rebuild with new heads, cams, and clean out the oil passages from the filter in bypass. As well as hope you got all the debris or the engine is coming right back out.

Marketing approved where the older stuff was specified: Allison now doesn't recommend the thinner Dextron 6 in their older GM pickup HD transmissions due to seal compatibility.

FCA isn't innocent with some revisions to the "Zero or Hero" EcoDiesel oil specs.

The ultimate "oil failure" is engine oil sludge. Several Dodge, Toyota, and other engines are known for this even today like: The Chrysler 2.7L Engine notorious for catastrophic engine failure as a result of oil sludge. The Dodge Durango 4.7L is also known to die from oil sludge.

Things, like oil, also change as you couldn't run a modern gasoline engine oil in a classic flat tappet V8 very long esp. a classic hot rod with high spring pressures: Well known you would wipe the camshaft. I hope modern Diesel oil specs stay compatible with the flat tappet cams of the older Cummins Diesels. This was my gamble over a 2019.

The Diesel "fuel oil" failure is under a recall for the 2019-2020 RAM Cummins. They should have known, but, someone ignored other CP4 failures, specified a Diesel fuel spec that simply isn't met everywhere in The USA... Whatever it wound up on a 6.7L Cummins. In this case because of internet forums you could get some information about "the odds" of them actually knowing and able to be applying "what works and what don't" before walking in the door of the Casino to bet money on say a CP4.

Why is copper and silicon trending upward? Are the sample dates in the same general time frame?

Good question. This lab's reports read with the newest sample on the left and history off to the right. Service Meter reading = Odometer. Fluid run time is miles on oil. The factory fill sample is on the right. So the trend is actually going down from brand new. Required 6 month oil changes as a timeline.

And yes I recall 20W-50. I have used 15W-50 Diesel oil not that long ago to help hot oil pressure with worn cam bearings on a GM IDI. I have also lifted a generator off the ground by it's starter rope when it was 32F out and had straight 30 in it.

 

[Killer223]

A little P-code

while (on BITOG)
{ If (Amsoil)
then
insert (14 page rant)
else
reminisce (the good ole days)
}

 

[CToney]

I currently use Rotella T6 5w40 in my truck. It’s what’s recommended for my Ecodiesel. I’ve installed a oil pan heater on my 3500 so the lower flowability doesn’t worry me as much. 15 Diesel engines on my farm. Some get 15w40 T4 and others get 0w40. I try to buy oil on sale at Canadian tire when available. Several engines get only 1 oil change per year. I’m not sure that Rotella is the best source for engine oil anymore. Probably for not much more $ I could buy Amsoil or equivalent in bulk. It’s not as easy to find an oil that fits everything in a mixed fleet. Some engines that are 40+ years old to others that are new. Cold start ups matter up here as the temp can be at freezing to well below for several months of the year.

Better fuel economy will become more important as fuel prices increase. Sourcing oil might also become more difficult going forward as well. Ie no T4 on the shelves here.

 

[NIsaacs]

It’s not as easy to find an oil that fits everything in a mixed fleet.

You might take a look at this oil. Hard to come by tho, even for Cummins.

https://www.trucknews.com/transportation/cummins-valvoline-unveil-one-oil-for-them-all/1003143491/

Link to this oil from Cummins, good price, but note, "out of stock".

https://shop.cummins.com/CSSNAStore/s/categories/a224N000007v0yWQAQ/Valvoline Oil

 

[Cummins12V98]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

 

[Signal73]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

Man wasn’t that back in the 1st gen days? I do recall a memo but it was wayyyy back..

 

[NIsaacs]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

I always thought it was a Napa filter.

I did find this from 2010, the guy seems legit.


"Ive never had a Fram filter to fail, might be because I won't use them.

Here's what I have seen. Cummins 5.9 engine failed, root cause of failure was a piece of the oil filter material clogging an oil jet that cooled the piston. Cummins did the material analysis and WIX stepped up to the plate and paid for the man's engine replacement, note I said replacement, not repair, without arguing or trying to make it appear to be the fault of the engine owner. They did change their process and quality control. I was working for the Cummins Engine Company at the time and have first hand knowledge of the incident.

We all have problems, a true measure of a man or a company is how they resolve these issues. WIX passed that test with me with flying colors"

 

[brucejohnson]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

I remember the issue.
As far as "hard" data, best I could find (weak):
Fram And Dodge/Cummins... | Bob Is The Oil Guy

 

[AH64ID]

TSB 09-004-01.

Fram is not singled out, but rather didn’t make the approved filter list. Then again neither did Donaldson…

 

[Cummins12V98]

I remember reading on here 20 years ago about a specific person that had the cooling nozzles clog due to a Fram oil filter. I have done several searches but can't fine anything specific.

 

[NIsaacs]

I remember reading on here 20 years ago about a specific person that had the cooling nozzles clog due to a Fram oil filter. I have done several searches but can't fine anything specific.

A little info here, but nothing concrete.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/209816/

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/87750/

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/posts/242621/

A little more here, copy out of TDR issue 71. I am pretty sure the Napa filter question was during the 1st get era. Issue 71 is about the '99-'00.

It seems that numerous Cummins B series engines equipped with entry level Fram filters suffered piston failures some time back (years 1999, 2000). Upon investigation it was found that the piston undercrown oiling tubes (official term: piston cooling nozzles) were plugged, which caused the pistons to overheat and scuff against the cylinder walls. Cummins found that these oilers were plugged by some of the glue or resins used in the Fram filters, so they sent Fram a bill for those engines. You don’t want to screw with diesel engine manufacturers’ products, because their reputations are very important to them. Fram immediately upgraded the quality of this filter for use on the Cummins B series engine. Kudos to Fram for this one filter. *Editor’s note: Documentation of Fram’s filter follies (follies: as nice a term as I could find) is found in TDR Issue 34, page 105. As a result of their follies, Dodge issued a technical service bulletin (TSB 09-004-01 dated 5/18/01) which informed the service network of the recommended oil filters for the Turbo Diesel engine. The approved manufacturers were (again the date of the TSB is May 2001):

 

[AH64ID]

I wonder what Ram would say about a synthetic 5w-30. Would it be considered applicable for sub 0° weather?

The only one I know of is Amsoil's DHD and it has the same pour point as their 10w-30, but a lower cold viscosity. It also has less ash, .91 vs .99.

Then again that's a very expensive oil and hard to justify when any old 10w-30 or 5w-40 is rated for 12mo/15K/500hrs.

 

[JR]

Rotella makes a T6 in 5w30 as well as Castrol Vecton that carries the CES20086 and CK4, among other specs. Seemed on par with the Delvac Extreme 10w30 I use with the exception of the different CCS ratings. The T6 is a multi-vehicle oil that also carries the latest API SN designation for gassers and could make a good choice for someone with a 19+ truck that also has gassers that call for 5w30.

I've not seen either for sale local but the T6 goes for about $25/gallon online.

 

[sag2]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

It was indeed way back. Not sure if the warranty bulletin is still around as it was so long ago. It is correct that if it was not on the approved filter list, it was considered bad and would plug the nozzles.

 

[Cummins12V98]

It was indeed way back. Not sure if the warranty bulletin is still around as it was so long ago. It is correct that if it was not on the approved filter list, it was considered bad and would plug the nozzles.

I was hoping you would chime in. Happy New Year!!!

 

[Tuesdak]

Quick diversion. Does anyone have a link to proof positive Fram oil filters caused damage to 5.9 Cummins with the filter coming apart and plugging cooling nozzles.

Needing to back up my claim on another Forum.

FRAM, after a long, Uh... process, paid for this engine. Filter was the updated "A" version.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...on-51-000-miles-fram-filter-the-cause.250686/

Older info (And most of those part numbers on the list are improved since. FRAM P/N having an "A" after it for example.)

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...can-be-dangerous-to-your-engine.211771/page-4

 

[Ben_Stadelman]

Greetings!
Getting ready for the first engine oil and filter change in the 2021 6.7L.

My Engine Oil Selection Adventure:
1. For my region, rarely ambient temperatures below 0 deg F, so I choose 10W-30 for my 2021 6.7L truck.
2. Owner's Manual (page 501) References API CK-4 and Cummins CES 20081.
3. Cummins website also references API CK-4 and CES 20081
(https://www.cummins.com/engines/cummins-67l-turbo-diesel-2021) (choose "Maintenance" about middle of page).
4. I'm comfortable with Shell Rotella T, it's the oil I've used for 20+ years and 230,000+ miles in my 2001 5.9L.
5. Locally available to me is Shell Rotella T5 SAE 10W-30 (Synthetic). Label indicates API CK-4 (etc) so no concerns there. Label also indicates Cummins CES 20086.
6. Read a few TDR threads around CES 20081 and CES 20086. Appears CES 20086 has replaced CES 20081 for the 2021 6.7L truck.
7. Sounds reasonable, but would be nice to locate a reference. Please see attached.
8. Required that I register to access the file, but here's the link: https://quickserve.cummins.com/qs3/pubsys2/xml/en/procedures/00/00-378-005.html

Is it an opportunity to update the Owner's Manual?

Thoughts?

 

[AH64ID]

What reference do you need? Owners manual states CK-4, which is CES 20086, but it allows the older CJ-4/CES20081 as well.

CES 20081 is the CJ-4 spec and was superseded by CES20086 in ~2017. My 18 owners manual also has references to both. CK-4/CES20086 is a much better spec and what we all should be running. I’m not sure you could find a strictly CJ-4 oil anyways.

No need to update your owners manual.

 

[JR]

I'm sure you know this but the link you provided speaks to fuels with higher sulfur limits than is allowed in the US. Older Cummins Engineering Standards (CES) had higher tbn requirements to neutralize the acids in the fuels. With modern ULSD and emissions equipment oils are very different and the latest standards should be used.
The CES (Cummins Engineering Standards) numbers are in numerical order, the higher the number the more recent. CES 20086 is the most recent standard that pertains to your truck.