Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

but it’s a very simple matter to swap the shifter vs pulling the transmission.

I'm quite familiar how simple it is having pulled the trans twice in my driveway and the shifter several times... My point is of the tangible efforts worth doing, pulling the trans is more constructive towards finding the solution. What I don't understand is the posturing as if the shifter is the bane of my continued issues.

All of this is still with the aftermarket shifter?!?!

As if changing your steering wheel alone will fix your font end play and alignment. It's not true, the problem is related but found elsewhere like an ice burg.

I think lowering the oil level by approx. half a quart to my originally calculated 7 quarts will have a bigger impact on the shifting (down shifting into 4th and 3rd) than the shifter being swapped but I digress. I said I would swap the shifter, there isn't a hold or hesitation. I'll follow up when its done.

 

[AH64ID]

Comparing the aftermarket shifter to the steering wheel is apples to oranges.

Comparing a shifter knob to the steering wheel would be more apples to apples, but that’s not going on here.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

It might have already been asked on here, but did you check the bolts for the pressure plate to make sure they aren't bottoming out before getting to proper torque. I recall with the sbc flywheel they need to be a shorter bolt than oem. If the pressure plate was prevented from proper torque I would think that would cause some noise, vibration and binding. Just thinking out loud.

All the mounting hardware was provided by SBC, new flywheel and pressure plate bolts were included in the clutch kit installed in TX and I have new hardware for the kit sitting on my bench all accounted for. It wouldn't make sense for SBC to send you the hardware to modify for their kit, they'd have it made to spec for their kit and shipped with it.

For warranty purposes when I pull the trans I'll take a video of the process and confirm everything was torqued to spec before disassembling and replacing with the new unit. If something is loose or missing then I'm back on the phone with STG. My experience is leading me to not trust any work not done in my drive way and I'm disappointed given the amount of time, energy and money I've put into this problem. If I find and prove the cause(s) of my issues I'm going to be livid how it was over looked by so many other eyes and hands.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Comparing the aftermarket shifter to the steering wheel is apples to oranges.

Comparing a shifter knob to the steering wheel would be more apples to apples, but that’s not going on here.

Accuracy of the comparison aside, do you understand the point that I'm making?

 

[AH64ID]

Accuracy of the comparison aside, do you understand the point that I'm making?

Still not an accurate comparison… but it amplifies the point we are making about the shifter thru all this. You simply don’t want to rule it out, but it’s the only thing you haven’t changed. Aftermarket shifters don’t have great reputations on NV5600’s, that is all.

The amount of issues you’re having in unprecedented, so it would seem something else is going wrong… but who knows, it is after all internet diagnosis here.

 

[BigPapa]

When diagnosing a problem, you basically start eliminating variables, issues, and parts until you find the problem. Our frustration with your diagnostic procedures is that you refuse to eliminate a simple item because you “had the Core shifter on the OEM clutch”. Even Mansell told you “I do honestly think that short throw shifter you have is not helping you.” Always start with the simple stuff first. No, the shifter isn’t going to fix your binding pedal or the noise, but it may help your shift issue.

Your truck, your time and labor, your money, do what you want, but don’t act like the people that are trying to help you, that you asked for help, don’t know what they’re talking about.

Beat of luck figuring it out.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

You simply don’t want to rule it out, but it’s the only thing you haven’t changed.

Our frustration with your diagnostic procedures is that you refuse to eliminate a simple item because you “had the Core shifter on the OEM clutch”.

Lastly, I had already stated that I wasn't going to touch anything until both SBC and STG had talked to each other about my issue for warranty concerns. Now that they have; I said I would proceed in changing the fluid level, then the shifter in the update post. There is no reluctance in changing it out.

I said I would swap the shifter, there isn't a hold or hesitation. I'll follow up when its done.

I'm not repeating myself for a third time.

but don’t act like the people that are trying to help you, that you asked for help, don’t know what they’re talking about.

There's no shame in not knowing or having an answer to give someone asking for help. Though I think my hands on experience and knowledge of my on going issue since March of 2021 is being grossly underestimated. I apologize if you feel I'm being arrogant or brushing off your suggestions and advice. I'm one of the few who keep a detailed log book of every detail since owner ship from every key on and off cycle to repair, modification, issue, symptom, maintenance item etc. I don't know everything, but I know quite a lot from experience. Maybe you'd have to see my truck in person to understand that.

My diagnostic procedure isn't wrong. I'm changing one thing at a time and comparing it with observations prior to changing it. That's why I am now on my third log book, there isn't a detail I don't have. Its a slow, meticulous, but a thorough process. Regardless if I'm offered any additional advice or suggestions in this thread what I find and what I conclude will be posted here. So that it may help the next person who finds themselves with a "unique" circumstance and issue that hasn't been thoroughly documented or experienced.

 

[bcbender]

Have you lowered the trans oil level to the stock fill amount yet? ( simply remove the fill plug on level ground and let it drain out). Im still interested in hearing the result.

I tend to agree with the group about the short shifter here, (especially since you have the OEM one and its a 20min job to check.) The 5600 is a big clunky gear box with a lot of very heavy parts in it, difficult to get them to synchronize in a short time and hence the multiple references to your short shifter, some are OK as I told you when you came by, but my rebuild was a lot harder to shift than it was when it had 130k miles under it. Some just simply dont row like a Honda Civic.

As for your TO bearing binding with the engine ON, I will attest that it is weird and you will most likely still have to R&R the trans to figure that one out. Have you pulled the inspection hole cover and stuck a bore scope in yet to see if you can see anything? I just did that on DW Honda to check for a dead cylinder, maybe worth a shot.

Just a reminder, I still plan to be at CMS April 9-12 if you are still diagnosing it and I can swing by and take it out for a spin cold if you want.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Have you lowered the trans oil level to the stock fill amount yet? ( simply remove the fill plug on level ground and let it drain out). Im still interested in hearing the result.

I tend to agree with the group about the short shifter here, (especially since you have the OEM one and its a 20min job to check.) The 5600 is a big clunky gear box with a lot of very heavy parts in it, difficult to get them to synchronize in a short time and hence the multiple references to your short shifter, some are OK as I told you when you came by, but my rebuild was a lot harder to shift than it was when it had 130k miles under it. Some just simply dont row like a Honda Civic.

As for your TO bearing binding with the engine ON, I will attest that it is weird and you will most likely still have to R&R the trans to figure that one out. Have you pulled the inspection hole cover and stuck a bore scope in yet to see if you can see anything? I just did that on DW Honda to check for a dead cylinder, maybe worth a shot.

Just a reminder, I still plan to be at CMS April 9-12 if you are still diagnosing it and I can swing by and take it out for a spin cold if you want.

I haven't touched anything on the trans yet. I'll follow up when I do.

I've not gotten ahold of a borescope to use.

That's fine so long as my schedule is open. I'm starting a new job shortly driving 5th gen 4500 wreckers and 5500 roll backs for AAA. Typically any large events around CMS bring in out of state/region traffic, depending on what's trailered in or driven in for the show amongst other things, it could be a busy week for AAA.

 

[Tuesdak]

Did anyone look at the clutch pedal itself? Bushings worn etc? I don't recall if it was mentioned on here or not.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Did anyone look at the clutch pedal itself? Bushings worn etc? I don't recall if it was mentioned on here or not.

The pedal bushing was replaced with a new Mopar one in while at STG in Texas. Its a little white pushlock pin. Previous one was worn but not enough to make a difference in operation. There's nothing physically binding or stopping pedal travel under the dash (unlike a few Toyotas with OEM car mats).

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Update: Shifter

2/19/22 : 238,155mi - OEM shifter swapped back. Immediate feel after installation (truck off, just moving it through gears) was that it felt night and day different than the core shifter. The ease of effort going into the gears was much less than the core albeit the throw now a bit longer.

To date - 3/30/22 : 239,595mi I've put 1,440mi on the OEM shifter. I've not had any of the previous shifting issues that I've had with the core shifter. No fighting, no mystery 7th gear in 4ths position that over speeds the engine as if I down shifted from 6th to 1st off an exit ramp, Down shifts are consistent and smooth for the most part, 3rd and 4th being more notchy but from memory and log notes they've been that way since the OEM clutch.

Tentatively crossing my shifting issue off the list.

Clutch still rattles like a dual disk, Clutch still has excessive engagement noise from the bell housing, clunking and slapping of the assembly, I still have a squeal from the bell housing as well (clutch pushed in no squeal, clutch out it squeals like a belt).

Clutch pedal still binds and has excessive resistance in pedal travel but only when truck is running. While the truck is off the pedal travel feels free and unobstructed.

Sent an email to Core about it just now explaining what been done since my shifting issues and by whom. Hopefully I can get a partial refund, I'm writing up a follow up email to Mansell from SBC now about what's been crossed off my issue list.

Ultimately the trans has to come out again.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I have a question to check my sanity.

If the transmission is in gear, I shouldn't be able to turn the engine over right?

I was removing my CP3 to have it bench tested under warranty by S&S for a seal leak and put the trans in gear to keep the engine from turning as I broke the nut loose.

Engine was turning over in gear. I had to put the barring tool in the bell housing to keep it from spinning.

 

[Ozymandias]

Definitely not turning it over in gear, your clutch is gone.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Good to know I'm not crazy, Clutch showed no signs of slippage while driving after the break in. From memory the pressure plate on this clutch kit should be 3200lbs.

 

[NIsaacs]

The clutch wasn't slipping, you were turning the whole drive train. I am assuming you had the transmission in 1st, that amount of gear reduction was just turning the drive train and taking out the slack. If you would have had it in 6th, you would have had a lot more leverage on the engine.

By trying to use the rear axle as your brake against the engine turning, 1st gear and rear axle reduction was just overcoming the resistance. 6th would have likely held.

Now, if you are using the engine as the brake against the truck rolling out of it's parking spot, then yes, 1st will hold more than 6th in this instance.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

The clutch wasn't slipping, you were turning the whole drive train. I am assuming you had the transmission in 1st, that amount of gear reduction was just turning the drive train and taking out the slack. If you would have had it in 6th, you would have had a lot more leverage on the engine.

By trying to use the rear axle as your brake against the engine turning, 1st gear and rear axle reduction was just overcoming the resistance. 6th would have likely held.

I think I understand what your saying, I'll try 6th during the reinstall.

If I'm following correctly this has to do with the force needed to over come the the Torsen "Anti-Spin" rear differential, 1st gear 2H turning the engine over by hand is giving more than enough torque to spin the drive line, but the axle stays in place and the differential dissipates the force. 6th gear, the overdrive would have less torque being the cruising gear and the differential would engage and use the traction of the tires on the ground to keep it from moving (turning the engine). 5th gear being direct drive 1:1 should do the same aswell.

Am I understanding that right?

 

[AH64ID]

I think I understand what your saying, I'll try 6th during the reinstall.

If I'm following correctly this has to do with the force needed to over come the the Torsen "Anti-Spin" rear differential, 1st gear 2H turning the engine over by hand is giving more than enough torque to spin the drive line, but the axle stays in place and the differential dissipates the force. 6th gear, the overdrive would have less torque being the cruising gear and the differential would engage and use the traction of the tires on the ground to keep it from moving (turning the engine). 5th gear being direct drive 1:1 should do the same aswell.

Am I understanding that right?

Basically, but it has nothing to do with the anti-spin differential. A open diff would have the same effect, since it's the gearing and not the differential that is proving the torque multiplication.

In 1st you have a torque multiplication of 21:1, but in 6th it's only 2.7:1.

In 1st you don't need to put much effort on the barring tool to have enough torque to rotate the entire drivetrain and make the vehicle move, but in 6th there isn't near the multiplication and the weight of the vehicle is enough to hold you.

Applying the parking brake will also help.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Basically, but it has nothing to do with the anti-spin differential. A open diff would have the same effect, since it's the gearing and not the differential that is proving the torque multiplication.

In 1st you have a torque multiplication of 21:1, but in 6th it's only 2.7:1.

In 1st you don't need to put much effort on the barring tool to have enough torque to rotate the entire drivetrain and make the vehicle move, but in 6th there isn't near the multiplication and the weight of the vehicle is enough to hold you.

Applying the parking brake will also help.

Understood, it's just the torque multiplication from the transmission gears alone. So on something like a civic or corolla with a 5 speed, 1st gear would keep the engine from turning over by hand because of the lower torque multiplication rate in the transmission, the NV56 being higher because it's mated to a low revving tow geared vehicle right?

Parking brake was on and it was probably in first.

 

[AH64ID]

Understood, it's just the torque multiplication from the transmission gears alone. So on something like a civic or corolla with a 5 speed, 1st gear would keep the engine from turning over by hand because of the lower torque multiplication rate in the transmission, the NV56 being higher because it's mated to a low revving tow geared vehicle right?

Parking brake was on and it was probably in first.

Transmission gears and differential gears are both in play.

1st in most vehicles is probably closer to 2nd on the NV5600. 1st is a "granny" gear designed to get a heavy load moving, regardless of what the engine can rev at since you start at rpms at or just above idle.