05 engine failure.. Please help

[JGheen]

The fact the Dealer advised to operate after the failure ,added the possibility of further complications. . Poor advice IMO.

That is all dealers give, poor advice. I need to start a thread explaining the various reasons why NEVER to trust a dealer with anything. I get stomach cramps just thinking about the coolant flush coming up in my truck @ 60K miles. If I had a way to do it myself I would never have a reason to take it to the dealer except for a possible ECM re-flash.



Read. Learn. Become your own warranty station.



Joe

 

[JWadford]

i would bet the turbo parts are either down the exhaust pipe, or stuck in the intercooler, and most likely the smoke is from burning the engine oil leaked out of either the exhaust side of the turbo into the hot exhaust, or it is being pushed through the intercooler, i would try what Andres said, also if it has oil in the intake it will have to idle for awhile before it clears up out of the intake and out of the exhaust, before you start it though i would pull the engine oil filter and cut it open and see what is inside, this will give you a pretty good idea of what is going on and if there is damage to the internals.

 

[BMHenry]

Thanks alot you guys for all your thoughts. . I do find that most MOPAR guys are far different than the GM and Ford owners. Everyone here is so willing to help it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. . :-laf Buts seriously, this discussion has helped me with decisions and actions that I am going to take. .



Just a little FYI that i found out. . Any warrenty claim that the dealership approves and sends to Chrysler; Chrysler takes a look at broken parts, and if they deem it wansnt warrantable; The dealership eats the costs. . Seems to me no one wants to foot the bill for a their manufacturing problem.



As of now, I am still trying to convience the dealership and district manager of chrysler to reconsider their rulling on this... I still have a few tricks up the ol sleeve. . However, I have accepted that this may be a worst case secenario. In any case, That dealership will not be doing any more work on my truck...



On a different note. . Does anyone know where I can get a flow test done on a airfilter in the STL area to prove that it meets cfm flow requirements for the cummins motor. . Also does anyone know what the required cfm of a Cummins motor or where to get that info?



Thanks again for everyones help. . Brandon

 

[Motorhead]

BMHenry, I'll chime in... , I would take pictures of the air filter element, the air filter restriction gauge and where the indicator is sitting in relation to flow or no flow. Get it out and away from the dealer immediately. Keep a written log with names and content of the conversations. If you use an independant Cummins shop to tear down, see if you can document it with pictures.

I read on the site of guys losing stock turbos! Get the name of the guy that said it was ok to drive it in.

 

[BMHenry]

Thanks for the tip motorhead... I have already taken photos of the airfilter with members of the dealership there. That way they can not accuse of bad play. . As far as a sight glass. . Man O man, I wish my truck would have came from the factory with one. .



There is good news though. . After mentioning all this info flying around, what cummins and other mechanics I have talked to have had to say about the subject, and a very tiny bit of mud slinging :-{}, the dealership has agreed to do a take down to intercooler and investigate up to the intake manifold for debris intrusion at their expense. . Imagine that, they are actually going a step in the right direction. . I will take what I can get at this point, and just mabe they will start to see the light... I will keep you all posted. . Thanks again guys

 

[AHolt]

The same thing happened to my truck. I had 1800 miles when I saw oil

pressure drop. I called dealer told them about it. They said drive it in.

I was told oil sending unit was bad, ok to drive it until new one came in.

a week later I could hear bearings in turbo whining, when I did take it back, I got a call from dealer telling me I needed a new motor. they knew what caused

my motor to go bad, but because I had changed the exhaust from cat back

D&C flew someone from out of state to go over this truck before they would

honor warranty.

 

[brods]

I have an 05 3500 5. 9L. . I was going down the high way when the turbo blew. . Blue/White smoke everywhere. I called the dealership and asked if it was ok to drive to them, and they said yes. . on my way to them oil pressure dropped and I shut the motor down and got it towed... They looked at it and said that the turbo blew due to a clogged air filter. . It is a AFE Pro Guard 7. They came to this conclusion by visual inspection of the air filter only. . They said the that the motor would need a long block, turbo, intercooler ect... They have not done a compression test, pulled the head, or taken apart the intercooler. The only dissassembly that has occured is the intake to the turbo. The district manager has rulled this as a no warrenty issue. . The motor has 99,508... The truck did have an edge chip on it years ago, but i took it off at 45,000 miles. .



Please advise on what I can do to get them to reverse their decision. . The turbo blew in rush hour traffic doing about 45-50 mph in 6th gear. .



Any ideas and imput are welcome... This is going on the third week of no vehicle. .

So the truck had a performance box for a while, is equipped with an after market high flow air filter and has 99. 5K miles. And you even took it to the dealer why??



Yes it sucks that you have a problem, but why not man up and accept that you threw away your powertrain warranty the moment you put the Edge on the truck years ago? Did you ever consider that the Edge may have allowed higher boost pressures thereby shortening the life of your turbo? Why should Dodge have to pay for this, just because you took the edge off a while ago?



I hope its just the turbo and a relatively simple fix.

 

[Wingate]

If indeed the air inlet system was excessively restricted, it can and will cause a turbo failure. Instead of the shaft running "neutral" on the thrust bearings, the excessive vacuum on the air inlet side will cause the shaft to pull forward in the cartridge housing. This causes a "lack of lubrication" issue on one side of the thrust bearing that wears it out rather quickly. Once it gets enough slack, the cold wheel impacts the cold housing and everything comes to a violent crashing stop. The speed of the shaft assembly and the abrupt stop tends to break the shaft into when it stops. Sometimes, if its caught before it goes to failure, the vacuum will pull oil out of the bearing/seal assembly and will actually send oil into the intercooler for awhile before failure.

I would forget about any warranty consideration and get my truck out of that dealership. It seems that they have already made up their minds and they probably won't do anything to help you. If you're a decent wrench, buy an aftermarket turbo (or a reman from a Cummins parts department) and install it yourself. Pull the intercooler and take it to your local radiator shop and have them clean it out.

One other thing you could do is just remove the turbo, cap the supply line and fill the engine with oil and fire it up as a N/A engine. Just to see if the engine is ok or not.

 

[TCDiesel]

Just for one moment look at form this angle, Put aside the Box and intake... Customer calls in with Blue and white smoke out exhaust with no power condition. . O just drive it in. What caused more damage the Box /intake or the poor advice without any type of investigation into the condition? OK what caused the damage? The Dealer direction or the add-ons? Than to turn around and deny Warranty. That Engine was more likely to have been destroyed by the advice given by the dealer at the power of the Creator of the vehicle.

 

[brods]

If exactly following all the dealer's directions caused subsequent mechanical failure, then the dealer should cover the damage caused from their bad advise, not the original failure. That is assuming the dealer was filled in on the truck's mechanical situation correctly. No doubt there are many less than stellar service managers out there, which is why like many others on here I too avoid dealer service departments like the plague.

The manufacturer builds the truck to withstand much abuse. Even so they program the mighty Cummins to perform far below what it is capable of in order to protect the rest of the truck. Turn up the wick and you have broken your part of the warranty contract. Simple. No grey area. Something in the powertrain breaks or wears out early, tough luck. In this case the part failed 492 miles sooner than the minimum 100,000 miles the manufacturer promised it would last. TWest will you now argue that the Edge added no extra wear and tear to the engine and drivetrain?? Rationalize warranty fraud all you want, bottom line is it is still fraud and wrong.

Next time you go to buy a new truck and complain about the price, think back to all the times that guys have beat the system for warranty repairs and then you'll realize YOU get to pay the bill. I hope all who encourage fraud are happy paying for it!

For all the good that the TDR does helping out owners with information, it sadly seems to accept and worse yet encourage warranty fraud. It is a shame.

 

[TCDiesel]

No, I do not encourage nor do I incite fraud, In fact I condemn it, the engine was probably salvageable UNTIL the dealer promoted the fact of belittling a major malfunction, the loss of turbo failure was and would now be under discussion. Not engine failure. Yes I admit that add-ons do change the configurations and should not be covered under warranty. Customer (s) Have Been in MY garage and shop and I have spoken to the Dealer(s) in their behave and Have had the same advice given, The only time(s) that I can remember of the Dealer arranging the tow is when you mention it is not drive-able. Always call the 1800# when roadside assistance is necessary. This Dealer assumed a minor repair or just did not carry the responsibility of protecting further damage resulting in the poor advice given.

I invite anyone to call us on add-ons, You will be instructed that not certified modification(s) will put your Factory warranty in jeopardy. A simple solution exists here Owner takes care of all damage relate to turbo failure Dealer takes care of all internal destruction related to the negligent instruction given. OK this event is the poster child for getting a second opinion to make a better informed call, and its more than likely a costly one$$$

 

[BMHenry]

Just to clarify the situation... I am not asking for nothing more that what is promised by D/C when I signed on the line when I bougt my truck. . They said 100,000 miles not 99500. . Under warrenty!!! Peroid. . Puting a chip or intake on a truck does not void your warrenty... Only tampering or altering the odometer voids the warrenty!! That is in black and white. . The will not warrenty the parts broken by a performance or race add on... Point is, 1) they have to prove the add on (in this case air filter) DID casue the malfunction, (A VISUAL INSPECTION ONLY IS NOT AN ACCUATE OR TECHNICAL TEST IN THIS INSTANCE)... . 2) it was a milage chip and I monitored BOOST all the time which it never went above 32 (BTW!! This has nothing to do with their service diagnostic on what they say caused the failure). . 3) They didnt take the turbo off the truck to see what failed on it. . 4) They didnt tear down the engine to see if it was salvageable before saying it was a complete loss, 5) they seen an aftermarket air cleaner on the vehicle and deemed it was the casuse of the problem without a flow test or anything & belive me, its NOT clogged. . 6) This whole issue is the fact that D/C failed on their end to provide accurate technical advice, customer service, and quite frankley mechanical service. . I have said it before. . If a flow test was done and came back in their favor, I would have let the whole thing drop, and I still would. . That is all that I have asked for in the beginning. .



You could argue this all day long... Point in fact... They have came to a conclusion on inconclusive results and data.

 

[brods]

... ... They have came to a conclusion on inconclusive results and data.

It certainly sounds that way and that dealer sounds like a real looser for sure. That is a separate issue for which you have received good advise to get your truck out of there and over to a reputable diesel repair shop or Cummins shop. We also are hearing only one side of the story (not that there is any reason to doubt what you have said, but there is always a different perspective on things from the other side).



As for warranty, every edge product has advertised power increases. More power equals more heat and more stress on components which equals more wear and shorter lifespans. From the warranty booklet: “Your warranties don’t cover the costs of repairing damage or conditions caused by any of the following: ... tampering with the emissions systems, or with a part that could affect the emission systems..... any changes to your truck that don’t comply with DaimlerChrysler Corporation specifications... ” Somehow I don’t think the Edge or the air filter are within Dodge specs, nor was the edge likely to be within emission specs either.



Seeking any warranty repair for any part of the power train without telling them you had changed the operating parameters of the engine by using the Edge for a period of time is fraudulent. It is not a game of if they can catch you or that they have to prove it. You know you have operated the engine outside the parameters that the manufacturer had designed it for. You chose to do so. It is not ok with Dodge! It is common sense that extra wear occurred compared to if it was left stock. If Dodge pays they will simply pass the costs on to the consumer. Good for you, bad for everybody else who buys a Dodge.



I do feel for you and hope its just a turbo. Doesn’t change the fact you got to pay to play and anytime performance enhancing accessories are installed the owner is taking a risk with the mechanical well being of their truck... a risk the owner should accept or not install the accessories in the first place.

 

[BMHenry]

BRODS... I completely agree with most of what you have stated. . I did not keep it from them that a chip was on the vehicle. . They asked I said yes. . Plain and simple. . I also agree with 2 sides to every story, you never do know the whole side of things from 1 point of view. .



When I stated they had to prove it, I ment that as "because X resulted in increased Y resulted in the failure of Z". . I believe I was misunderstood on the previouse post by "proving it" as I wanted them to provide technical data on what the failure was why it was caused... Not just because it looks like the airfilter was clogged. . THATS BS. .



I agree with you, you have power modders out there making warrenty claims and wanting their stuff fixed when it breaks. . I also agree that we shouldnt foot the bill for those things.



However, I havent asked for anything that isnt due to me as a customer. . They said the engine is toast... I asked them to provide evidence. . All they could say was uhh... u had a chip on it and a clogged airfilter... Oh you havent taken the motor down, dropped an oil pan, tanken off the filter, looked at the intercooler. . Come on, a little far fetched. .



All I want from them is an honest non objective look at what caused the failure. . For pete sakes they didnt take the turbo off the truck. . They just said uhh... Its broke. . No joke thats why its here... LOL...



In short we agree to disagree. . Thanks for your imput as well BRODS. . Just learn from my mistake I guess, I know I will. .

 

[HBarlow]

I agree with Brods. The issue here is someone has an engine that has failed just a few miles before the normal expiration of the warranty. The engine was modified so the warranty was voided by the district service manager. No surprises here. The dealer and Chryler rep involved in this weren't born yesterday. They've all seen this scenario played out before. Their decision will stand. If YOU believe they are wrong step up to the plate and authorize a tear down at your expense to prove they are wrong!

There are no mysteries or surprises in this situation. It happens all over the country all the time. It is proof that modifying and working an engine hard increases the risk of premature failure.

Repeat after me: "If I choose to modify my engine with aftermarket parts, I am my own warranty station. "

There were only 500 miles remaining on the warranty anyway, nothing was really lost.

The rest of this discussion is just whining and trying to shift responsibility to another party. The OP knows the engine was modified and he also knows it was abused whether he admits it here, or not. Or even to himself. Magic black boxes are installed to increase engine output beyond design parameters. Every high school boy knows that. Aftermarket air filters are known by the dealer network and by Chrysler/Dodge warranty/service decision makers to cause accelerated wear and occasional failure. Adding those parts was the choice of the OP, now he pays.

The idea of blaming the dealership because some dimwitted service writer told you to bring it in is like calling your cardiologist's office and telling the receptionist you are feeling chest pain. She's not a physician so she tells you to come in and see the doctor. You have a heart attack on your way after years of eating fast food so you blame the doctor because of the advice his receptionist gave? I don't think so. A service writer is not a mechanic and many are not even knowledgeable about the products. They are salesmen who coordinate your visit. Nothing more. Any knowledgeable truck owner should know better than to ask their advice let alone follow it.

The truck belongs to only one person and it is his responsibility. If my truck begins running badly or emitting smoke it is my call whether to call a tow truck or drive it in. If I opt to save a few bucks of tow bill and drive it in and the engine suffers a catastrophic failure, it is my responsibility.

I regret that the original poster's engine failed but he made the decision to take the risk and now he is faced with the consequence of that decision.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility in America?

 

[jelag]

One of the keys here is that the dealers really don't have people who understand the theory of operation and the ability to do failure analysis... I spent 4 years in a training program when I was in college... . and the 2 most important things that I took from the instructors were.....

1 - learn the theory of operation and than using that theory diagnosis what went wrong...

2 - when you don't know what you need to know... go find the answers... and for me, most of that is through SAE technical journals... everything we do with clutches, air compressors, HD Brakes come from the classes or journals written by SAE engineers... .

To our demise, the dealers (car and truck) no longer teach theory of operation... they teach how to use computers and flow charts that take the need to know the theory out of our reach... .

This process is cool when it comes to computer hardware... but like the guy here who had 4 or 5 turbos in 80K miles and couldn't keep one on the truck so he finally traded trucks instead of finding the problem... . and why is that... . its because the dealer has no one on the lot that understand theory of operation, and failure of turbo's. . Yet I can sit here and write for an hour and easily cover the complete theory of operation of an air compressor used on a class 8 truck... and the items that cause pre-mature failure...

There were things we were forced to understand and today I can still draw and alternator circuit and the regulator that makes it function, a generator circuit and a starter circuit... . and you know in over 40 years they haven't changed much...

So what we see are kids, who know how to use a tester, and throw parts at the problem... why do you think that Chrysler has STAR parts... to keep them available but out of the hands of the dealer so the tech's won't grab a new part from the parts department, ruin it, and submit it for warranty when they themselves damaged the parts...

In the same way I believe that if you modify the part (engine) so it runs out of design parameters you've just became your own warranty station... in the same breath I believe that the manufacture of the aftermarket product should sign on for some of this..... of course this would add 25% to the value of the aftermarket part to cover those costs...

I'll step off the soap box... . but I put my 2 cents with brods and harvey.....

 

[brods]

... . I did not keep it from them that a chip was on the vehicle. . They asked I said yes. . Plain and simple. . ... ...

A big thumbs up for being honest with them. Honesty seems to be a rare trait today.



Your frustration with the service department is understandable, but be aware if you want them to dig into it further you should be prepared to be charged for the labor to do so. You have some tough decisions to make, like whether to have the dealer repair it or take it somewhere else, etc.



Best of luck for a quick and hopefully low cost resolution to a bad situation.

 

[BMHenry]

Brods. . That is what I am hoping for is a low cost resolution to a bad situation. . BTW. . I am not trying to shift the blame on anyone here, please note that... All i wanted was to have a complete and true diagnostic of the engine. . That is truning out to be too much to ask for at this particular place. . The only other aternative that I can think of is to take it to Cummins Mid South and have them do the work on it. . Send the turbo to holset for a diag on failure... And hopefully the call comes in that it was just a turbo. .



I did have the truck towed, when I seen the oil pressure drop. . I shut it down immedately. . After the Sercive writter asked the tech if it would be ok to drive. . Lesson there too.



Question of the day. . If this was indeed bearing failure. . What are the precursior signs of this so that I may look for it in the future? Truck has never leaked any oil or had loss of power...



Again thanks everyone. .



HBARLOW:



If I choose to modify my engine with aftermarket parts, I am my own warranty station.



That is for you!!...

 

[HBarlow]

Thanks BMHenry. You're a good man!

I think you see the larger picture here. Nobody, myself or anyone else, takes pleasure from your misfortune. We all hope that you get off with a rebuilt turbo and an oil change.

My first Dodge Ram, an '01 HO/six speed was and still is modified. I had a set of Bosch 275 hp motorhome injectors installed and ran it 325,000 miles. I knew that if I melted a piston or caused other damage I was responsible and I would pay.

Your unfortunate experience and the public discussion of it here on this site is important not only for the possible 30,000 TDR members who may read it, but for thousands of other non-members who have access to the website and read threads like this. When I post I am thinking of them.

I want the world to know that the unmolested Cummins engine is as reliable and durable as an old iron cooking skillet. They last forever.

I also want strangers who (including who knows how many Chrysler/Dodge and Cummins engineers and managers) read this forum to know that as a group we are basically honest and responsible people. I don't want the world to think the TDR is a bunch of guys who believe it is okay to modify our truck engines, trash them, and then commit warranty fraud against Chrysler/Dodge or Cummins.

We believe that if we modify, we are our own warranty station.

Good luck with your truck engine.

 

[jelag]

""""Question of the day. . If this was indeed bearing failure. . What are the precursior signs of this so that I may look for it in the future? Truck has never leaked any oil or had loss of power... """"

The only way I can think of to see the signs is testing oil and knowing what's in the oil and see signs of changes... . my personal hearing is so bad I wouldn't hear the problem until the crank fell out..... what might be nice is a low oil pressure shut down, this is software that could be designed into the computer... .