05 engine failure.. Please help

[rbattelle]

No, NEVER EVER full current thru the ECU. It would melt the internals in a second...
Component should still be fused between supply and load to prevent agasinst catastrophic failure. Could be a fuse, relay, or even fusible link covering it.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion on '03-'04. 5 trucks there is no fuse or relay between the ECM and the lift pump. Nor is there a fuse between the lift pump and ground (which would be silly anyway). I'm no EE, so I fail to see why the LP current (which can't be more than 20A LRC) would fry the ECM. Are the traces really that small?

The attached photo is from the 2003 service manual, and shows circuit K62, which connects directly to cavity 45 on ECM connector C1. I have verified the accuracy of this schematic by visual inspection. Again, I have always assumed that there's an internal breaker in the ECM on that circuit.

Looking more closely at the schematic for 2005-up trucks, I see the LP connects via circuit A109 to the TIPM at cavity 18 of connector C10. It's not clear from the schematics (this TIPM system is spaghetti!) which fuse and/or relay is running the lift pump. In fact, I can't find any clear indication that any fuse or relay is in use on A109, but I believe brods. The wiring diagram just stinks. (In Dodge's defense, it is a very complex system and they did the best they could).

So in answer to my original question, yes the TIPM added a fuse and relay to the LP circuit.

Ryan

 

[HBarlow]

I know absolutely nothing about the issue being discussed but as a former electronics tech I was surprised and skeptical when the subject of 20 amp current through the ECM came up.

The ECM is basically a computer and it would be surprising and out of the ordinary to route 20 amp current through a computer. It would seem more likely that a very small control signal would be routed through the ECM to activate a higher current relay external to the ECM.

Again, I know nothing about the ECM or the circuit in question. I just find it curious that 20 amps would be routed through the ECM. 20 amps would generate heat and magnetic fields which would/could influence the other sensitive components.

 

[brods]

These wiring diagrams are the most difficult to work with of all the ones I have ever used. I guess that is what happens when you have to squeeze all the information onto tiny 8 1/2 x 11 pages.



On the 2005 in the Integrated Power Module section, page 8W-13-38, it shows the fuse and relay driving the lift pump.



Ryan, try checking under the power distribution section. The wiring diagrams for 2004 on the bodybuilding site shows a fuse and fuel pump relay on page 8W-10-17. Unless I missed it, it was not clear if it was for gas or diesel or both. Though if they used a fuse and relay on a gasser, I find it odd they would not do the same for the diesel.

 

[rbattelle]

Brods, that's the gasser section. The diesel section has no such fuse/relay (until the TIPM was introduced, anyway).

Here's what the text reads:

The 12-volt electric pump is operated and controlled
by the Engine Control Module (ECM).

Maximum current flow to the pump is 5 amperes.

Looking at my fuse box, there is no slot for LP fuel pump (relay or fuse).

Again, these are only my opinions on how the system works, based on my reading of the service manual and my observations when re-wiring my LP fuel system. Everyone should examine their own equipment and schematics and come to their own conclusions.

Ryan

 

[cerberusiam]

Well, I would be highly suspicious of anything that tried to run 20 amps or so thru the ECU, they are just not made to take that kind of load on the components.



Here is what I based my info but not even sure it is correct. It doesn't match other schematics exactly so not positive this is the actual. It just looks feasible. It clearly indicates there is a relay control in the circuit but not exactly where it is.



#ad

 

[brods]

Ryan, since you've traced the wires and you're sure on the 03 its powered directly from the ECM then thats good enough for me. It is strange that Dodge chose to do it that way. What did they do on the VP44 trucks? On the 05 both the gas and diesel use the same relay to power the fuel pump module, though they use different fuse positions to protect that circuit.



How do you guys post the image from the pdf?



Anyhow, BMHenry you do have a fuse for the lift pump if your truck is an 05. If you pull the fuse box cover and look at the inside of the cover it will list what all the fuses and relays do.

 

[sag2]

Well, I would be highly suspicious of anything that tried to run 20 amps or so thru the ECU, they are just not made to take that kind of load on the components.



Here is what I based my info but not even sure it is correct. It doesn't match other schematics exactly so not positive this is the actual. It just looks feasible. It clearly indicates there is a relay control in the circuit but not exactly where it is.



#ad

This second page (76) is why I questioned for sure if the diagram was correct for the truck. The first page (75) that Ryan posted backs up what he said that the circuit is powered by the ECM, both by circuit call outs as well as the diagram. In 76 the diagram is correct for the ECM to power the pump, but the call outs indicate there is some relay control. So the only way to prove it is to ohm the circuit from the ECM to the pump. But I still agree based on the diagram the ECM is powering the pump.

 

[TCDiesel]

IMO,2003 lift is control By the ECM and is hard wired to the PDC. the Cummins ECM monitors the fuel through the Pressure sensor on the Rail, the Pump Relay is time sensitive or ignition activated,(Will open and close at the demand of the cummins ECM) the Pump will run up to 30 seconds with key on engine off, it will immediately come active upon engine start, the pump will remain off if the air bags or other criteria are met. 04,05,06 07 are all monitored differently.

 

[hammersley]

A good electronic fuel pressure

I'm also glad to hear your truck is repaired but not surprised that after nine weeks of argument you paid for the repair.



The gauges you suggested would be good although IMO boost and egt are adequate. I personally have never owned or seen the need for a fuel pressure gauge.

gauge will let you know if you get a load of crap in your Fass Filters

 

[cerberusiam]

IMO,2003 lift is control By the ECM and is hard wired to the PDC.

Control of the pump by the ECU is not in question, its how its controlled that the opinions vary. If its hard wired to the PDC then its not fed by the ECU and that makes the most sense.



From the wiring schematics it looks like a dual circuit with the relay supplying load and ECU monitoring for on-off operation based on a feed back loop. The ECU activates both the relay and feedback at the same time to control it.

 

[rbattelle]

I think they (Cummins) decided to run the LP direct from the ECM when they were certain the pump would only be drawing 5 amp. Later, when they realized the stock canister-mount LP wasn't enough, they switched over to the ECM triggering a relay to control the pump.

This allows a bigger, more powerful pump. Anyone know if the in-tank retrofit kit includes a relay?

On 2003-2004 trucks, that's why you always want to re-wire the circuit with a relay when upgrading to a larger pump. At least, I think it's wise to do so.

Ryan

 

[HBarlow]

gauge will let you know if you get a load of crap in your Fass Filters

My Fass Filter is safe without a gauge. I don't own a Fass Filter either. I've never seen the need that is so often discussed here for exotic aftermarket fuel filters, pumps, gauges, etc. OEM has worked fine for me for over 600k miles.

 

[cerberusiam]

I think they (Cummins) decided to run the LP direct from the ECM when they were certain the pump would only be drawing 5 amp.

The in-tank pumps still only call for a 5 amp control circuit, which makes me think it is only a control circuit.



The 03 FSM is showing a relay output as does the 04 FSM, they also have a fuel pump relay that is referenced in the schematics. It looks like its a standard inclusion whether its gas or diesel.

 

[BLNRAY]

turbo failed

must agree with almost everyone, get a new mechanic. as a mechanic ,turbos rarely fail an engine,your crankcase oil is probly in the intrtcooler, clean it replace the turbo and drive another 100,000mi. by the way, unless the air filter was in the turbo,it didnt cause the failure.

 

[BMHenry]

Thanks for all they help guys. .

 

[MAshley]

!!!!!UPDATE!!!!



So after 9 weeks of battle with corporate Chrysler. . They have stuck to their position not to warranty the Turbo... I have had my truck repaired (turbo 7 intercooler replaced)... Picked it up on monday. . Oo. . Only to drive it 40 miles and it break down again, the engine just quit, no warning lights, guages, sounds, nothing. . #@$%!



I

Brandon

Brandon



First Glad it was only a turbo... .



Second Is the turbo even covered in the 100K warentee from my understanding it isn't. only moving internal parts actually in the motor? Again this is my understanding I could be wrong. If so please let me know.



Thanks

David

 

[stacked06dzl]

On my 06 the engine was replaced under warranty. I had about 65k miles on it. It had an afe and magnaflow exhaust when i took it in to them. all they asked is if it was chipped. The service manager said they have to prove without a resonable doubt that any performance upgrade i did would have caused that. I had a six gun and the smarty on it when it blew but i took then off before i had it towed. They replace the entire engine and never really questioned why.

 

[HBarlow]

That's warranty fraud, a criminal offense, and it also passed the cost of your engine destruction and repair on to all the rest of us. I would be embarrassed to admit it.

 

[stacked06dzl]

Well there Harvey Im not embarassed to admit that Chrysler fixed my truck as promised. I paid for that warranty with my hard earned money and bought the truck used with the chips on it from them. It was purchased as is Warranty! So the way i see it if they didnt cover it they would be at fault anyway. I understand why you feel that way but dont call me out infront of these people if you dont know the story. The chips may or may not have caused the failure but they had the confidence in the truck to sell it to me in that condition then thats now there problem. My service tech said "I dont blame people for installing these modules on there trucks. They add power and better mileage. With the price of fuel these days how could anyone blame them. It becomes a problem when they get too carried away with themselves. " They have the right and i would certainly hope the skill to check for these things. They didnt. Again not my problem.