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1st Gen Stage 1,2,3,4 performance steps.

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Hi Guys,



Take a read thru this series of posts on the stage 1,2,3,4 and if you see something that should be added/removed/adjusted etc. post your idea indicating which section, which topic/line and what you'd like to see altered, and altered with your choice...





Bob 1st Gen Mod.





In order to develope a proper sequence of performance upgrades and derive the maximum benefit from them,there are some necessary steps required.

Keep in mind that the list(s) below are shown to give an "ideal build" were ever possible. It is possible to limit the extent of some items/work and achieve satisfactory results depending on expectations or results desired.



First of all, the truck MUST have some basic instrumentation. The purpose of which, is to give you an original set of baseline readings, as well as prevent serious consequences such as piston/head damage or runaway.

These readings would be used to determine the effectiveness and/or impact of any changes made to the truck. Also it is advised that you keep track of the particular readings for reference sake.

Any testing should be done, if possible, under the same conditions as all original tests. For example, ambient temperature, humidity, fuel w/wo additives, stretch(s) of roads, weight load, etc.

It is fairly easy to develope a spreadsheet for tracking these items/results.



That being said, here is what may be considered the first step in the process...



"Stage 1"



1) Instrumentation must include:



>Pyrometer: For measuring exhaust gas temperatures (EGT's) This should be mounted pre-turbo for most effective/accurate readings. Since the shutdown temperature(s) are as important as operating temperatures, it would be ideal to have a second pyrometer mounted "Post-Turbo" as well. In real life however this may be seen as excessive and care should be taken to assure that the engine is shutdown only after EGT's have fallen well below 300*F with a "Pre-Turbo" pyro mount.



>Tachometer: For properly measuring/utilizing engine torque and HP ranges. As performance is increased the engine RPM range tends to increase as well. Often times, injection pump adjustments alone can cause idle RPM changes. A tachometer is need to recognize and make adjustments as the "build" proceeds.



>Boost Guage: For tracking the boost pressures of the turbo charger. Very high boost levels are not a necessity in a good "build". Your boost levels should only be sufficient to allow for full burning of the fuel charge. In some cases the boost levels can reach a point were they actually become a detriment to engine performance and longevity. The turbo component must be configured to match the fueling levels, RPM and operating range desired.



>Transmission temp guage:This is used if the truck is equiped with an automatic transmission stock or otherwise. Since trans. temps can be CRITICAL to a transmission's lifespan it is a necessary instrument. In addition to the normal servicing of the transmission, in the case of the Getrag 5spd, it should be overfilled by roughly 1 quart. This will help extend the life of the transmission and prevent any of the internal bearings from going unlubricated when operated at steep angles or heavy acceleration.



** Availability: The availability of the above mentioned guages as well as others not mentioned is fairly good. If the particular guage/mount you want is not in stock it can be ordered in a fairly short time. It is recommended that you speak with a shop that specializes in diesel performance, in order to assure some measure of confidence in recieving the correct instrumentation the first time. There are some well known names in this field and should present no problem in finding the appropriate gauges to suit your needs.





2) Replacement of the existing OEM air filter: By using an aftermarket, high flow filter and opening up airbox/use of aftermarket airbox you will permit the maximum amount of airflow, properly filtered, to reach the turbo charger.

There are a number of options in this

** Availability: There are a number of options in this field. Some of the more well known examples are the AFE, K&N, BHAF (big honkin air filter).



>Replacement of Exhaust System: For the purpose of removing the crushed and restrictive sections of the OEM exhaust. The diesel engine does not want any restriction in this system, unlike the gas engine which can utilize back pressure.

Currently there are 3", 3 1/2", and 4" systems available with some being custom made for particular truck(s).

** Availability: While the 3" and 3 1/2" mandrel bent systems are fairly common to the bigger name performance diesel shops there are some smaller companies who have excellent, well priced products. Do your research first. In the area of 4" exhaust from the turbo back there is very little available in the form of "Kits". You can have a "one of" bent for your truck. They are a snug fit on the 1st Gens, particularly on the 4X4 models.

One shop in BC has taken a chance and are building 4" systems to suit each truck from the turbo back, to try and help the 1st Gen owners out.



>Turbo Exhaust Housing: The best method of improving throttle response and boost pressure is ususally achieved by changing the exhaust housing size. These housings ranged from 21cm to 18. 5cm with the latter being the smallest OEM on a factory 1st Gen truck. The replacement can be a 16cm, 14cm, or 12cm. Generally the 14cm and the 12cm are a wastegated housing which allows excess boost to be vented, preventing overboost/high drive pressures due to the smaller housing sizes.



The 16cm is a straight bolt on change. When going to the smaller housings such as the 14cm or 12cm, it may be necessary to shorten the downpipe just back from it's connection to the turbo.

** Availability: The only exhaust housing that could be called a bit scarce is the Non-Wastegated 14cm housing. They are a little more difficult to come by and often takes some time to order in. As for the other options they are generally easily available. **NOTE** as you go DOWN in housing size, you should achieve "roughly" 2-3 psi more boost over the previous housing, assuming no other changes.



>Modest adjustments of the injection pump. These are generally the "free" power enhancements that are fairly easy to make. They should be done in a methodical manner to assure the desired results. Generally they can all be done by the owner with a few simple hand tools and a small amount of time.



>Pressure test the intercooler to confirm no leaks. Currently the original OEM intercooler is no longer being produced as a "new" item. DC has discontinued them because 10 years is the amount of time that parts must be made available under law. Currently the best you can do is to have an existing intercooler rebuilt (similar to a radiator rebuild) or, purchase an aftermarket intercooler.



>Other less obvious items: This would include removing and "porting/polishing things such as the "intake horn on the intake manifold, the exhaust manifold ports, modest porting/polishing of the inlet side of the turbo exhaust housing (care needs to be used here so as to avoid reducing "velocity" into the housing "snail"), internal polishing of the elbow were it exits the compressor side of the turbo and so on. Remember, smooth surfaces facilitate air flow. Again, these appear to be minor items on the surface, however, cumulatively they can make a difference, whether it is improving airflow in or out, the ability to increase fueling, reduce temperatures etc.



** This should result in approximately 30-40 HP increase over stock systems. In addition, if properly done you could reasonably expect to see some improvement in mileage and performance with little impact on drivetrain longevity.



Bob

Continued:
 
"STAGE 2"



STAGE 1 Plus:



>VE Pump Modification/Adjusting: In order to achieve higher HP and torque levels, certain injection pump adjustments are required. These can include, but are not limited to; Aneroid, High Idle, Full Fuel, "Starwheel".



>Increase Injection Pump Timing: Raising the injection timing of the VE pump to near maximum safe levels improves the overall responsiveness of the engine as well as aids in reducing some emissions, smoother idle, better general performance in conjunction with injector upgrades.

As a rule the pump timing can be increased to 15 - 17*advance or between 1. 40mm to 1. 50mm spill port lift, depending on the method used by the shop/mechanic. While it is occasionally difficult to increase a 1st Gen pump much beyond 17*advance, it is recommended that this is roughly the limit in order to maintain head gasket integrity. Something to keep in mind is that the 1st Gen engines had a number of different "stock" settings. It can range from 1. 25mm on the later trucks to as much as 1. 40mm on the earlier models. It should mention the recommended setting on the engine plate mounted on the side of the gear cover.

While not the very best method, it has been found that by locating the existing index marks on the injection pump/gear case, then rotating the VE pump upward until there is approx. 1/8" space between them, usually results in advancing pump timing to approx. 15*advance.



>Performance Injector Upgrade: There are a few injector upgrades that can significantly alter the performance of the 1st Gen 12 valve engine. For example 185 HP rated application injectors offer roughly 28 Rear Wheel Horse Power. (With the exception of the 89-91. 5 model year which have a larger injector than the later 1st Gens)

Other options are the Lucas Injector and similar nozzles which provide in the range of 55 - 60 RWHP.



>Limited Slip Differential: At this point it is advisable but not strictly necessary for those trucks with an "open differential" to upgrade to a Limited Slip or alternate type of system.



** Overall , this level will provide roughly 75-100 HP gain (inclusive) over stock.



>***NOTE***

At this level of uprating, the automatic transmission used in the 1st Gen trucks (be it the 3spd or the 4spd w/OD) are reaching there limits of durability.

Going much beyond this range will inevitably require the transmission, torque convertor, and valve body to be upgraded as well. The 5spd Getrag transmission is also nearing it's limitations however regular service, overfilling the transmission with oil by roughly 1 quart will help extend it's longevity.

Increasing pump timing beyond a give point (arguably 17*advance is usually the upper limit for daily use/towing/hauling etc. Much beyond that level can result in fairly high cylinder pressure(s) and result in head gasket problems.

At this level of enhanced performance you should be willing to accept some increased wear in terms of pump life. (the price of HP)

Mileage will certainly be affected and a modest loss of fuel efficiency can be expected when using larger injectors and more aggressive pump settings.



Bob



Continued:
 
STAGE 3"



Stages 1 & 2 Plus:



>Significant Injection Pump Internal Alterations/Modification:



>VE Pump Alterations:This is were the VE injection pump has significant modifications internally, as well as maximizing the various fueling adjustments. It could also require replacement of some internal components with components from other VE pump applications.



>Modified Turbo Charger(s): For the purpose of making significant improvements in airflow/supply(Boost), cooler boost temperatures, quicker boost response, reduction of smoke emissions, improving overall combustion of increased fueling levels; There are a number of aftermarket options. They are, but not limited to, a modified HX35 turbo with different exhaust housing, a modified HX40 or HX50 turbo charger again, with different exhaust housings, twin turbo configurations. These are usually custom built/designed for the particular application.



> Cam Shaft Replacement: This will make a noticable improvement in the engines' ability to "breath", as well as aid in turbo spool-up response time, help lower EGT levels. This modification is one that helps make the power enhancements usable in a daily driver or towing in particular.



>High Flow Exhaust Manifold: This aids the flow/removal of exhaust gases. When this can be facilitated, the system will run more efficiently, provide good exhaust flow to the turbo charger for effective turbo response time as well. Due to the extra heat which results in this overall level of upgrading, the OEM exhaust manifold can result in cracking or breaking the "ear(s) on an engine head or manifold. Additionally the exhaust manifold gaskets start to "creep" and can eventually leak. Because the exhaust manifold and engine head heat/cool at slightly different rates, the mounting bolt holes in the exhaust manifold can crack or break. The aftermarket 3 piece system effectively deals with this issue. A short term fix would be to have the exhaust manifold removed, the bolt holes enlarged slightly and re-installed.



>Porting/Polishing Head: The modification makes a noticable improvement in the "breathing" of all Dodge Cummins heads and the 1st Gen head in particular, which flows less air than any of the subsequent generation engine heads.

There are multiple levels of porting and attendant cost to each. It can take as much as 40 hours or more to effectively port a head so as to improve flow and not create deficiencies as can happen if it is done by inexperienced persons.

In addition the valve guides, and valves are best changed to more heavy duty ones, as well as having a 3 angle valve grind done. Heavy duty 60 pound valve springs are also preferred.



>Transmission Modifications: Herein is, a hotly debated topic in regards to automatic transmissions.

First it is necessary to establish some basics. One of those is the fact that none of the 1st Generation auto transmissions (either 3spd or 4spd w/OD) are a lockup torque convertor style system.

They are ALL, FLUID COUPLING ONLY.....

That means that the transmission transfers the engine HP & Torque thru a torque convertor without lockup clutch(s)

As HP increases, the effective "Stall Speed" of the OEM torque convertor also increases. In stock trim the "owners manual rated" stall speed is between 1700 and 1900 RPM.

Stall speed is the RPM at which the engine cannot exceed before the vehicle begins to accelerate, unless restrained by the braking system. For example, a stall speed "test".

It is not uncommon to see that change ever higher, as the engine performance increases.

It is entirely possible to have a TC that is slipping badly due to excess HP/torque being pushed through it. That results in high operating temperatures, slippage, line loss and eventually failure of the transmission. The 1st Gen A518/727 operating temperature is generally 180*F plus or minus. The 1st Gen transmissions are also hotter running than later CTD automatics such as the 47RH/RE lockup units.

In situations were towing or working at higher altitudes, especially with uprated engines, our transmissions can actually see temperatures as high as 270*F or more. (In fact there is a thermo switch which forces the transmission out of OD, and prevents the upshift to OD while the temperature is roughly 270*F or higher. )

That level of heat is quickly fatal due to oil breakdown.

One more important note... . Many owners either tow, or carry "heavy". In order to help with braking an exhaust brake is often installed. What is NOT taken into account is that the exhaust brake on a stock automatic transmission, is about as effective as sticking your hand out the window. All that is accomplished is excess transmission wear, slippage, extreme heat buildup, and early demise of the auto trans.

One of the only exceptions to this is when using a transmission from a new model truck. The later model trucks use a "lockup convertor" in their drivetrain. This lockup clutch can be engaged, and basically results in a direct connection between engine and transmission. Under those conditions, an exhaust brake has good result, with minimal wear if designed specifically to encorporate the E-Brake. This area is one of those "hotly debated" area's previously noted. DO YOUR RESEARCH !!!



The stock OEM transmission is generally reliable to roughly 225 RWHP. Beyond that, the engine is producing enough raw HP/Torque at low enough RPM's that the transmission is likely to suffer failure if over driven constantly.



There are a number of aftermarket transmission companies/products to address this fact. It is best to contact several and go into that conversation with a full sheet of questions surrounding the product, your intended HP goals, type of usage (eg: racing, towing etc. ) performance record, service, cost etc. Above all, be honest in your presentation when it comes to what you want to do with your truck, tell the company you want to relive your childhood and race till you drop, or tow like a fiend.



> The 5spd Getrag Transmssion: This transmission has it's own weaknesses. It has been known to fail resulting in unpleasant transmission problems. Also, this transmission is best perserved by regular fluid monitoring, and over filling the case by roughly 1 quart. This can be done via the shift tower, or the upper bolt on the PTO cover. This is at best, a stopgap measure when reaching into the higher horesepower levels. Ideally a conversion to a 5th gear modified NV4500 or NV5600 with appropriate clutch is advisable.





**NOTE**

This should result in roughly 150-175 RWHP increase over OEM.





Bob



Continued:
 
"STAGE 4"



Stage 1, 2, 3 Plus:



**Note**

At this level, you will be making some significant changes to the original OEM system. It will require the replacement of the OEM VE injection pump and, conversion to a different fuel injection pump. That pump is known as the P7100. It is a large inline injection pump, capable of supplying significant amounts of fuel.

It should be noted that options below are listed in order to create an "ideal build". It is possible to utilize some or all of the steps listed below, just as in previous stages of develpement, provided the owner is aware that shortcutting can work for one, and not for another.



>Custom Head Work: This will entail maximum porting/polishing of the head and intake manifold. The head would benefit from a good quality stud kit, as opposed to the traditional 'head bolts' which can stretch and aren't as capable of withstanding the same pressures/torque levels of stud kits. While not an absolute necessity, studding the heads is becoming more common.

In addtion, the head and/or block will need to be "O-Ringed" to deal with the much higher boost pressures needed at this level.





>P7100 Injection Pump: This change requires the replacement of the timing gear cover, injection pump and all related items. It is an extensive job and results in a significant increase in fueling levels, EGT's, etc. It will also result in some serious HP increases when used in conjuction with modified turbo charging systems.



>Replacement Racing Cam: Again, like the initial cam change, if your goal is to reach this level of HP, then you can forgo the original cam change earlier on and go straight to this in order to be cost effective. This cam change will require additional components/modifications as noted but not limited to the below. .



>Custom Pistons: These may be marine application or other... the piston(s) will usually require flycutting which makes notches to allow for valve clearance. Ceramic coating pistons is also used widely in high HP applications.



>Special Valves/Seats/Guides: This is required to deal with the increased heat and higher RPM that will result at this level of modification, as well as the higher boost pressures that result.



>Heavy Duty Valve Springs: Required to assure effective opening/closure of valves. Generally when running higher RPM's. (usually considered 3500 RPM and above. )



>Full Engine Balancing: Idealy, to allow for higher RPM operating range.



>"Girdling" Block: Prevents the block from flexing and possibly cracking at high HP/RPM levels. This is not an absolute necessity but a preventative measure becoming more common.



>Nitrous/Propane Kit: These additions provide significant HP increases for such things as dyno runs, sled pulling, racing etc.



>Twin Turbo Systems: This is a more common option in the very high HP applications, although there are aftermarket suppliers who can provide excellent single turbo systems good to as high as mid 600 HP range, depending on specified usages.



>Fuel "Pusher" Pump: In order to assure a continuous supply of fuel at sufficient pressures to feed the injection pump, a secondary supply or, "pusher pump" is often used.



>Custom Built/Designed Injectors: The P7100 injection pump can supply sufficient fuel to run extremely larger injectors. There are a number of options available. Often there are a few very good shops that can provide not only large performance injectors but relatively "clean" considering the volume of fuel being run in a very high HP application. Remember, "clean" is in the eye of the beholder, or the local law!!



>Large Aftermarket Intercooler: At this level of fueling and HP a larger aftermarket intercooler is often needed, simply to keep charge air temperatures at a reasonable level.



>Custom Built Transmission/Clutch: Again at the levels of HP and Torque being developed it is a necessity to replace any existing transmission/clutch etc, with heavy duty, race/pulling capable equipment.

There are a number of aftermarket suppliers who specialize in this very type of product. Currently there are automatic transmissions holding up to very near 800 RWHP reliably as of this writing (04/15/03).

These will of course, require secondary oil coolers. They incorporate billet components, cryo'd, hardened parts, and other custom components that all contribute to holding all that HP and Torque without exploding. What you end up using will literally be a custom built, specifially tuned system for your specific application.

Durability, reliability, cost, service, and warranty are extremely important and can not be overstressed. If it is done well, it can be as effective as a standard transmission in terms of power transfer. It will also shift much quicker than a standard transmission ever could. Go for some test drives, talk to owners, and remember, in this catagory, price is NOT the object, unless you want 20% or more of your performance upgrades to go missing on their way to the ground, not to mention oil and parts all over the ground !!!!!



**NOTE**

This should result in roughly 450-500 RWHP or more, over OEM.

If you are reading this then it means you have reviewed the various "stages" and modifications above...

It should be emphasized that the foregoing is not the opinion of or by the TDR. This has been summarized solely for the purpose of giving the reader a look into the types of modifications and potential results that are possible. Like all things, techonology and options change almost daily so talk to the pro's who do this and are successful doing it, in order to go into these area's fully informed. Remember... YOU ARE YOUR WARRANTY STATION !!



Bob ~ 1st Gen Moderator.
 
Hey Bob!



Nice work but... ... .



The 5spd Getrag Transmssion: This transmission has it's own weaknesses. One of which is the 5th gear nut



The Getrag has no 5th gear nut, that feature is peculiar to the NV4500.



Keep up the outstanding work!
 
Alan, good catch... I've gone in and fixed that.



I'd like all of you guys to do just that... go thru it and point out any discrepancies or mistakes. I put this together late at nite and it may well need some "repairs" to make it accurate.



Also, we have to be carefull in the recommendations so we don't have "advertising" issues come up. I have tried to be generic in descriptions.



Have at it guys... .



Bob.
 
Stage 3: maybe also move the Getrag comment on overfill to stage 1. Stage 3: comment on replacing Getrag with 5th gear modified NV4500 or NV5600. Stage 1: a note added to pyrometer, suggesting that if turbo temp on shutdown is a concern, the pyro should be after the turbo.
 
Bob, At this time I would like to add some things if that is ok.



First I will say to pay attention to the small things. One can gain HP by doing some porting on the intake elbow (on top of the manifold), this is a choke point.

Second, if a truck owner feels like gaining some free Hp, pull the exhaust manifold and exhaust housing from the turbo and do a little porting there. Plus polishing the compressor housing and elbow will help a little.

I know it sounds like small gains but, add them up and it makes a difference. I still have the lock coller on my pump and I am making some respectable power. A lot of it comes from the small stuff.

We cannot push the amount of fuel with the VE pump that the other guys can so we have to make up for it with effiency. And free flowing air is the way.

I hope I'm not out of line here. If I am, just delete this.



Dave
 
Nope, no problem here Dave... ...

I've gone in and added your ideas... have a look at the end portion of the Stage 1 section. In fact I'll go thru the other sections as well and see if there are any similar "overlooked opportunities" in them as well.



Bob.
 
Hey Bob, I just finnished reading your post, and I'm glad I did, good work and thank you very much. I'm hoping to get a few of these mod's done to my truck soon. I like Dave's idea of free horse power, by gettig the motor to exhale better.
 
A few observations that might help:

In Stage 1, I doubt the less obvious things category will help hp

In Stage 2, limited slip is user preference. I still have open diffs.

In Stage 4, I am using stock head bolts, retorqued several times at that, moderate head porting; DD street cam is plenty; I dont use a girdle or balancing, although balancing is always a good idea if the engine is apart. Not criticizing your options at all, just noting that some may not be necessary.



Overall, very good job at summarizing performance stages.



If you come to May Madness you can see up close a lot of different approaches to Stage 5,6,7.....

:D
 
Hi Joe,



Hey, I'm always glad for some professional input. I've gone back and "qualified" or adjusted slightly, the issues you have raised.



As for stages' 5,6,7, I think I'm afraid to ask... ... ;):D:D



Bob.
 
Bob,



When I had a shop set my pump timing, they checked the TDC pin and found it was off 2. 5 degrees. As far as I know, that was the factory setting. If after all you can get then the TDC should be verified.



Stan
 
No way Dave, you put em up there so it's every man/woman for themselves..... ;);).



I think, to be very honest, we get so enamored or caught up in chasing the big HP numbers/options we often overlook the smaller, cumulative effects of going for the details.

Even if those particular items do not DIRECTLY result in more HP for example, perhaps they will allow a touch more fueling, or reduce some EGT's, or whatever. Either which way, to me, it's all good.



Come on guys, have at it. I'd like to have these as precise as possible without going into individual company advertising which would get us all a wack upside the noggin... ;) :D:D

WHAT IS MISSING ???? ANYTHING???



Bob.
 
Ok Bob. But I feel I must point out that if one is not experienced with porting and understands the fundimentals of flow I recomend a search for an engine building shop that does it. Removing material, even a few thousanths where it should not be removed will negate any gains and could rob power.

I have an advantage because I build race motors and do two and four stroke porting and I have a couple thousand dollars of equipment for this.

But for those that feel they can do it I will say focus on the area where the turbo mounts to the manifold and the manifold itself.

Use an "old" gasket to mark the two faces and make sure to leave at least 1/8th inch on the sides. The reason for this is the casting is a little thin here. But you can go to the top and bottom safely. Just look at it and you will see what I mean.

Work your way into the manifold and around the bend. Remember, you want a smooth radius. Gases hate turns and lips. Also smoothen (my wife says that's not a word) and casting flaws.

Do the same for the turbo making sure to go in as far as you can.

One thing I use is "baby powder". Yea, you heard me right.

Sprinkle some in where your working and give it a puff of air. I said PUFF, not a blast. Now look at where the powder is gone and where it sticks. Where it sticks is where there is no flow. Work before and after this area to get it to flow. Sometimes you just can't get it to flow all of the powder away, but do the best you can as it will be better than stock.

The next thing requires a 90 degree tool. Look at the inside of the housing and see the casting flaws. reworking this really helps but you cannot do it without a 90 degree tool.

Like I said, this is not for a novice. You can not put material back once it is removed.

I realized a decrease in EGT's ( 50+ degrees) and quicker spool up and a 1. 5 lb gain in boost. The more fuel your putting in the more you will gain from this.

I hope this helps.



Dave
 
Hey Dave,



Thanks for the tips,... .....

One thing I will have a wack at is the manifold. I am seeing some of the gaskets "creeping" a bit lately, so I may as well do some polishing when I remove it to do the gasket repair.

I just wish I had the tools you do. I know theyre expensive too... .

I'll just use my dremel and flextip to do as best I can.



Thanks bud..... :D



BTW, the PDR HX35 is sweet ain't it..... :D:D



Bob.
 
Bob, your right. I think the PDR HX35 is one of the best investments a first genner can make. Quick spool up and more boost. A stock 35 is an improvement, but When Piers is done doing his thing to one of these it really comes alive.

Overall boost is one thing, but driveability is another. and these turbo's give you both. I noticed when I'm pulling my trailer my temps are down too. Gotta love that.

Add the extra power and clean exhaust from the DD3+ injectors and not only do I have 30 more horse power over and above from the POD's, I'm getting 2. 5 better miles per gallon.

Ya know, I remember the days when if you pumped up an engine to make over twice it's rated power, you got about 3 MPG.

Anyone that says diesels are no good has marbles instead of gray matter between their ears.





Dave
 
1st Gen. Performance

I like it! Logical steps. Good starting point for someone like myself, just beginning to toy with the Big Bad Dodge.



I never was content to leave well enough alone with the farm tractors :D :D so why should this be any different!!!???



I agree with the marbles



scott
 
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