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2003 Fuel Pressures

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Originally posted by docdyno

The "lift pump" is a completely different design from the '02 and previous units. It should be considerably more robust and dependable.



Good info about flooded inlet, Doc. :D I could wrong on this one, but I think the VP44 was a similar design, flow rates just didn't really seem to enter into the equation during discussions.



Maybe I'm getting pessimistic in my old age, but so far, results haven't been real promising. I've been driving my 03 like I stole it, and have seen a 1 PSI drop in idle and WOT pressures. TST has reported large decreases in WOT pressures during their testing. The last I heard was they were down to 1 PSI at WOT. Does this mean we're still getting enough flow to the injection pump? Probably, but what happens when the gauge hits 0 or pulls into vacuum?
 
Additional Lift Pump Information

Via a telephone conversation, I can provide further information about the HPCR fuel priming pump:



Fuel pressure out of the lift pump is not an extremely important specification. The fuel pump contains an integral gear pump that raises pressure to about 180 psi inside the pump before it is delivered to the internal high-pressure pumping plungers. This pressure can't be measured because all fuel is delivered via internal drillings in the fuel pump housing. (These plungers then raise the pressure to as high as 23,000 psi - don't ever crack a high pressure fuel line while the engine is cranking or running!)



The primary purpose of the lift pump is to prime the engine. The Duramax requires the driver to pump a manual priming bulb a few hundred times because they don't have a lift pump. Dodge and Cummins didn't want Ram owners to have to do that, so there is a lift pump. As long as it is delivering positive pressure to the high-pressure fuel pump, the gear pump will take care of the rest.



The European version of the Cummins common rail engine does not have a lift pump. The gear pump takes care of delivering fuel -- as long as you don't loose prime. Then the driver is using the hand pump.



So, as you can see, the transfer pump and its supply pressure are not critical items to be measured.



Hope this helps.



Robin

TDR Admin
 
The flow spec is over a 10 second time period. The cp 3 pump run wide open will produce over 27000psi at idle. The injectors are fired by a 90 volt signal (capacitive discharge).



Bob
 
The lift pump on the 03 is there for a purpose, just like on the original ISB's.

Its purpose is to take fuel from the fuel cell and deliver it to the fuel pump.

The lift pump providing some fuel pressure to the CP3 is important.



As we all know the VP44 had and integral pump that would let the pump operate even when a dead lift pump was present.



So in my opinion, fuel pressure is still something that needs attention when modifying these engines.



--Justin
 
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Originally posted by jwilliams3

As we all know the VP44 had and integral pump that would let the pump operate even when a dead lift pump was present.



So in my opinion, fuel pressure is still something that needs attention when modifying these engines.




Justin makes an important point. Its definitely important to listen to Cummins/Bosch and how they've designed a system to work, however once modifications start, you're changing those parameters, and what Cummins/Bosch say may no longer be applicable.



The VP44 and the CP3 are both capable of moving their own fuel, however in the case of the VP44, power was always down if the lift pump was dead. And this with a stock truck. With a heavily modified truck, the VP44 was not capable of generating enough flow to keep things running smoothly.



Is this going to be true of the CP3? At stock HP levels, probably not, since it is a 2 stage pump that should be less affected by input pressure. However, once power starts coming up, and the fueling boxes get very aggressive, I still believe we'll need to be looking at fuel supply to the pump.



On this note, does anyone know what the CP3 pump is capable of generating for fuel flow?



Rod
 
LBS CONVERTED TO FLOW

OR VISE VERSA, WE NEED A COMPARISON FOR THE 24 V PRE 03 ENGINES... SURELY GIVEN THE SIZE OF THE PIPE THE FUEL RUNS IN FROM THE TANK TO THE INJECTOR PUMP, COULDN'T A RATIO OF FLOW TO LBS BE MATHEMATICALLY CALCULATED WHERE ARE YOU ENGINEERS HIDING ??????
 
Rod, what kind of power is your truck making now? We have found in testing that anything below 6psi can result in misfiring at the higher RPM's. This is especially prevalent at the higher HP levels (400+rwhp). For this reason, we built a pusher pump kit for the '03 and the problem goes away.



These trucks seem to be quite variable as well. I have a customer (Krabman) that got to >2psi with just the TTPM.
 
Originally posted by KLockliear

Rod, what kind of power is your truck making now?



I'm still running tests with the Edge EZ in the 80 pony mode. We're not having much joy with the stocker fuel system. I've been able to drive my truck into vacuum, with only the EZ. I actually posted the following on the Diesel Truck Resource and didn't get to it here, so I'll paste it in:



Quote



After running my 03's injection pump dry again, I decided it was time to get busy and look into fixing up this lousy fuel system. With only an Edge EZ in 80 HP mode, I've been repeatedly running my CP3 dry after long, hard, full throttle runs.



When new, our 03 would register about 9. 5 PSI of idle pressure, and at WOT throttle would pull down to approximately 5 PSI of pressure. Not wonderful, but also enough flow to keep the stock HO engine happy. Eventually, pressure dropped to 8. 5 PSI at idle, and 4 PSI at WOT. With the addition of the Edge EZ, my idle pressures haven't been changing much, however WOT throttle pressures have slowly been getting worse and worse, and recently I've been driving the system into vacuum, with stumbling after hard, full throttle runs.



This afternoon, we set to work and added our custom 12mm x 1. 5 x -8AN custom fittings to the CP3 and the bottom of the filter housing. Originally, we had planned to test out a -6 fitting kit put together by DTR's very own Ed "Looney as an Outhouse Rat" Looney (many thanks for the kit, Ed), however Cummins' new filter housing has a couple braces on it, and Ed's fittings with their larger wrench heads wouldn't fit for us. So we went with the -8 fittings from the 2nd Gen kits. In between these two fittings, we ran -8 stainless braided hose with some steel 90 degree swivels.



Installation was more of a headache than on an 02 and under. I learned some new swear words, until we noticed that you can see the bottom of the filter canister from the wheel well. After that, installation went MUCH easier



Anyway, end result: 10 PSI at idle, WOT throttle pressure between 2 PSI and 4 PSI. No stumble at all. We won't be running this system in its current incarnation for long, as we're stepping up to more ponies shortly, and moving to the PE4100 pump, however it does look as though the stocker lift pump can handle an Edge EZ with the addition of the -8 lines (we did try high flow banjos earlier, with no good results).



End Quote



I do need to add that my confidence in just the -8AN lines, with the EZ, is not exactly rock solid. I don't have anywhere near enough test miles to jump and down and say we solved the problem. Confidence in the PE4100 pump is high though, as its working extremely well under demanding circumstances on the 02 and under trucks.



I think the variability we're seeing is largely based on fuel quality. Canuck diesel is terrible junk, and we have more than our fair share of lift pump issues (stocker lifts/fuel systems on stock trucks can expect 30K out of a lift pump, until high flow bolts are added. Expectancy then goes up considerably (80K - 100K).



But I don't know if we're seeing the same bypass valve problem with the 03 lifts as we did with the 02 lifts. My truck is definitely not behaving as though it has a bypass valve problem, as the idle pressures just aren't dropping all that much. I heavily suspect that the new lift pump is just not capable in the puller capacity, and a stronger lift, such as a PE4100 (which can pull fuel) will end up being the final solution.
 
Actually I got it to zero as soon as I really pulled some boost pulling my boat up a hill and from there on I was able to see zero every time I gave it a good flog. The lowest I have seen with your kit is 9. 6 during a good hill pull with said boat. It will be interesting to see where I end up if I can ever (hint, hint) get a turbo lined up. I sure liked (blatant hint) the way Jessie's truck ran with your new turbo. If only (really blatant hint) I could get one. :)
 
Krab, I'm all over them for supply of these new turbos. I've got you on the list... if one guy drops from the next batch, you're in! Keep your fingers crossed.
 
I'm jumping in on this one a little late, but at the unveiling of the new ISX engine with EGR this past September, we noticed that it shared the exact lift pump that is prone to such failure on the 98. 5-02 ISB engines. Upon questioning one of the engineers about the lift pump, he stated that it is used primarily for starting the engine and that once the engine is started, the injection pump takes over by pulling fuel from the tank(s). He further went on to say that the next B series engine would incorporate such a feature, having an entirely different fuel system than the injection pump driven ISBs, and that the system was already tried and true in European versions. In looking at fuel flow rates, one could understand that the system is good for stock and then some, but once we drive the engines above designed fuel flow rates, I can see why a pusher pump would be necessary. Time will tell with this engine.
 
I'd like to resurrect this thread. I am becoming very very interested in making sure my fuel system is up to date. Robyn with TDR, Rod with Wildcat, and Keith with DD, as well as many others have really put some time and effort into testing our fuel systems, and giving some GREAT info... .



My question at this point is what should I be planning to do to my truck before I start ANY mods? Bigger lines from Rod? Pusher Pump from Keith?



Thanks!!
 
Andy,



I had similar concerns. With my Edge EZ on the 60hp setting I was able to draw the fuel pressure down to 0psi at WOT very easily. I picked up the Diesel Dynamics pusher pump kit and now my fuel pressure is 14-15psi at idle and 11-12psi at WOT even on the 80hp setting. I would recommend the DD pusher pump kit, it was really easy to install and it works great! It also comes with bigger fuel lines and AN fittings instead of banjo's.



Also, I had my truck dynoed at a local shop with the EZ on the 60hp setting and with my 5" exhaust and got 339hp (torque was not reading right). After I installed the DD pusher pump kit and the DD airbox, I set the EZ to the 80hp setting and had it dynoed at the same shop a month later at 434hp !(torque was not reading right) From what I saw on the dyno, it looks as though you can expect a bit of a HP increase as well since you are not starving the injection pump of fuel any more.



Hope this is the type of info you are looking for.



Jeff
 
Hey '03 Fuel pressure posters:

How about actually measuring the pressures and associated performance gain/loss?



I will offer dyno time with complete data acquisition along with fuel for testing.



In the dyno lab we frequently perform what we call A-B comparison tests. In this case, we could do a baseline run of a stock engine/fuel system. Then we could add the EZ and re-run the test. Then add some of the aforementioned fuel system upgrades and re-run the test. We could plot the associated power (HP & Torque) graphs to measure any differentiation with low fuel pressure input. We have an optical encoder fuel flow meter that can measure fuel flow to the nearest drop. So- we can also quantify fuel flow as well as data acq. any other parameters we thing might be germane to the tests.



Our labs are equipped with engine dynos that we use for ECM calibration development and validation testing. Since we use engine dynos, we eliminate a number of the variables associated with chassis (roller) dynos- not saying they are sub-par, just not as useful for taking intricate measurements like the ones we need for this testing.



We need: (1) A Gen 3 dyno drone (engine to test) (2) Any pumps or components that we feel we want to be part of these tests (3) A time when all who want to participate can make if for the testing. Being here is not really necessary unless you want to view the testing.



Like most of you I would really like to know what fuel delivery deprivation does to the engine/pump/power output of our engines. We are in Northern Indiana- let me know of any interest.

Doc
 
Jeff,



That's EXACTLY the type of info I was looking for. I got to borrow an EZ a few weeks ago to test out, and I'm addicted to the power it gained me... . BUT, before I go hog wild, I want to make sure I've got all the preventitive stuff in place... expecially fuel delivery related stuff. I'm big on "doing it right", so I want to ensure that each upgrade I make won't adversely affect some other sytem...



Anywho, thanks! that's what I was after!

Andy
 
Originally posted by AndyMan

Bigger lines from Rod?



Nooooooooooooo :D



With the ressurection of this thread I now need to add: the bigger lines we've put on the 03s have done absolutely nothing to cure the low pressure and running the CP3 out of fuel. Our lift pump pressure stayed up for a couple months, but has begun dropping to the old 9 PSI again, and last week I was able to drain the CP3 twice again. :(



Since we firmly believe in single pump riggings, our final solution will use -8 lines (as the pump we've selected is designed for -8) but please save your money if you're running the stocker lift pump. Bigger banjos and lines did nothing for us :(



On the performance side, we haven't dyno'ed but we have done timing runs with a fresh lift pump and stocker lines, worn lift and stocker lines, fresh lift and -8, and worn lift and -8. Between 30 and 80 mph, we didn't see enough variation to proclaim any difference. However, the worn lift did starve the CP3 whether we had stocker lines or -8.
 
It seems almost outrageous that we praise CUMMINS for being the almighty est of all diesels manufacturers, Laugh and sit around tell stories of how the FORD owners got screwed over, when for the last 5 years CUMMINS couldn't figure out how to solve this fuel pump issue. I can't see how everybody eats there **** and smiles, I think it's about time this issue is dealt with.
 
Well crap... I was hoping you (Rod) and/or Keith would post an update. Thanks for the update! and Thanks for Telling me to save my $$'s.



I definately don't want to risk putting you at odds with another shop, but question the single pump statement... SO, why would adding a pusher pump to my existing set up be a bad thing? Gimmie some suggestions bud!!! What can I do to keep my starving my precious CP3?



Thanks Rod, You're the MAN!

Andy



P. S. y-not... I gotta agree with ya a little... DC/Cummins should have been able to fix this crap by now. c'mon guys.
 




P. S. y-not... I gotta agree with ya a little... DC/Cummins should have been able to fix this crap by now. c'mon guys. [/B]




DC/cummins couldnt fix my 02

why would they be able to fix the 03



it takes average dorks like us , Rod, DD, Edge, TST, so on and so on to fix these things and make em work the way cummins intended them to work
 
Andy,



The DD pusher pump kit replaces the stock lift pump with a Carter lift pump mounted to the frame under the driver side floor boards. The stock lift pump which is located on the back of the fuel filter housing is replaced with a special fitting that DD had fabbed up. The is only one lift pump in the system.
 
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