21K, New Engine

[TFucili]

I don't care who he is or what you THINK he knows. Nothing he is saying is correct. His numbers make 0 logical sense. That is just basic fact. You don't need to know anything about cars to know that is not how statistics work. You can't compare unknown failure statistics to monthly sales statistics and make inferences about an engines reliability.

I have rebuilt more in-line 6 engines than probably anyone posting on these forums. You'll question me but won't question the guy pulling numbers out of his ass for some local dealership that have 0 meaning in the grand scheme of things? OK.

Get back to me when you've built an engine and actually understand how stout and over-built these engines are.

Out of curiosity, you keep referring to the inline six engine configuration. You are aware the ED is a V-6, right?

 

[jhenderson]

I’m not sure he’s aware of anything after reading his posts. Sales vs failures can’t be quantified? FCA will be surprised to learn they gave up on a combination that was making them money and helping their reputation!

 

[Bnks334]

Bnks334, I doubt you own the truck You claim to love so Much....You can PM your VIN/info or give it to me over the phone.

Just to make matters clear to Ya Bnks334, I condemn the Engine... were is it I said anything ( Negative) about the rest of the truck?

BS the entire power plant intake, EGR, cooling, and Now they are catching on fire weekly. Check out all the complaints on AEM. It may be well designed until VM rat nest assembles the unit, it makes no different how stout when the production kills it with QC.

3rd time I'm asking... what are these quality control issues you've identified?

 

[Bnks334]

Out of curiosity, you keep referring to the inline six engine configuration. You are aware the ED is a V-6, right?

I never said it was, now did I? I am alikening the eninge to another high load low rpm turbo configuration from another manufacturer where the same types of retarded threads pop up from people who dont understand the very information they are trying to share.

 

[TCDiesel]

Rotating mass Failures..........by the 1000s for 5 years.

How stupid are you, it makes NO difference the Month or Year FCAs production rates are public 200- 260 engine per month is nuts for any Power plant Maker.

My contacts at other Makers would have shutdown production until the problem was discovered and resolved , FCA was just crunching the Numbers ( throwing loyal owners to the shake of the nice with 3 sides being snake eyes) and Now have destroyed their market share, Your a FOOL to risk to Buying VM products at this time, I'm done with Europe's crap.

What part of this don't you understand? You bring up other threads just shows How weak and incompetent your standpoint is.

People share there thoughts and happenings as they see it ,If you can't see others viewpoints for what they are VIEWPOINTS right or wrong ,NO one is shoving your face in the screen.
If someone reads My postings and buy the Product and its a hero great, if they Buy and its a zero they wish they would have put more into the risk of ownership of VM power plants.

 

[Bnks334]

I’m not sure he’s aware of anything after reading his posts. Sales vs failures can’t be quantified? FCA will be surprised to learn they gave up on a combination that was making them money and helping their reputation!

Let me give you a quick lesson in logic and statistics... for the people who didnt make it past high school and think turning wrenches makes them smart...

1 ecodiesel in for service during a month when 10 ecodiesels were sold at some random dealership DOES NOT mean that 1 in 10 ecodiesels have issues. That is not how that works. Since this guy has literally been using these same numbers for YEARS in his posts I'd put money on it he doesnt have access to **** outside of some old buddy of his at a local dealer giving him numbers that are again meaningless when used the way he is...

I never once said you cant compare the numbers either. I said comparing the numbers has zero statistical relevance to the reliability of the engine. 1 in 10 cannot be extrapolated to the population and it's a complete logical fallacy to attempt to do so. Hence why everything this guy is saying makes 0 sense.

Further, absolutely no breakdown of failures has been given for his other numbers. 260 monthly service records at an absolute peak several years ago does not mean 260 rotating assembly related failures. And even if you can legitimately prove several hundred roating assembly failure over the course of several months, back several years ago, it does not mean the failures were related "quality control." For all we know every single failure was due to owners themselves. Or, ir could be 260 vehicles in for oil changes.

And again, you cant compare monthly service records to monthly sales since vehicles were sold over several years. Over 100k in north america alone. 1 failed car at a local dealer during a month means 1 in 104,000 failed. It does not mean 1 in 10 fail. That's unequivocally false logic to claim otherwise. 400x more likely to have rotating assembly failure than a cummins? That's a completely pulled out of thin air statistic. And no one here challenges this guy lol...

Also, FCA was doing well with the highly praised ecodiesel. They didnt give up anything. They had to halt production and sales due to pending litigation. That is how business works. In fact, they were stacking lots full of ecodiesels in anticipation of the lawsuit settling so that they could get back to selling them... and they are bringing it back full bore in 2020. Where the are you guys even getting this idea that FCA did away with the eco diesel due to "quality control." That's just downright ignorant. Go back to the history of production. FCA only planned on 5% of sales being Ed's and they ended up doing so well that production was increased to make up over 20% of sales. Totally opposite of what the tin foil hats on here seem to think.

Cars going on fire all on their own at 330am while everyone is sleeping? Yeah ok buddy... more like his gf left a cigarette burning in the seat. **** gets dumber and dumber ever time you post. "Them dang ecodiesels all are going on fire now!" Yeah ok.

 

[JJJ]

Let me give you a quick lesson in logic and statistics... for the people who didnt make it past high school and think turning wrenches makes them smart...

1 ecodiesel in for service during a month when 10 ecodiesels were sold at some random dealership DOES NOT mean that 1 in 10 ecodiesels have issues. That is not how that works. Since this guy has literally been using these same numbers for YEARS in his posts I'd put money on it he doesnt have access to **** outside of some old buddy of his at a local dealer giving him numbers that are again meaningless when used the way he is...

I never once said you cant compare the numbers either. I said comparing the numbers has zero statistical relevance to the reliability of the engine. 1 in 10 cannot be extrapolated to the population and it's a complete logical fallacy to attempt to do so. Hence why everything this guy is saying makes 0 sense.

Further, absolutely no breakdown of failures has been given for his other numbers. 260 monthly service records at an absolute peak several years ago does not mean 260 rotating assembly related failures. It could be 260 vehicles in for oil changes. And again, you cant compare monthly service records to monthly sales since vehicles were sold over several years. Over 100k in north america alone. 1 failed car at a local dealer during a month means 1 in 104,000 failed. It does not mean 1 in 10 fail. That's unequivocally false logic to claim otherwise. 400x more likely to have rotating assembly failure than a cummins? That's a completely pulled out of thin air statistic. And no one here challenges this guy lol...

If you dont understand this then more power to you ****ting on your own car...

Also, FCA was doing well with the highly praised ecodiesel. They didnt give up anything. They had to halt production and sales due to pending litigation. That is how business works. In fact, they were stacking lots full of ecodiesels in anticipation of the lawsuit settling so that they could get back to selling them... and they are bringing it back full bore in 2020. Where the are you guys even getting this idea that FCA did away with the eco diesel due to "quality control." That's just downright ignorant. Go back to the history of production. FCA only planned on 5% of sales being Ed's and they ended up doing so well that production was increased to make up over 20% of sales. Totally opposite of what the tin foil hats on here seem to think.

Cars going on fire all on their own at 330am while everyone is sleeping? Yeah ok buddy... more like his gf left a cigarette burning in the seat.

TC might be a little rough around the edges, but you are in total denial. I know for a fact that FCA has replaced thousands of engines due to bottom end failures. We don't know the actual failure rate but it's somewhere between 5% and 8%. This is an insane amount of failures no two ways around it. Here's a screen shot of another internal email from FCA whereas they are calling the bearing failure a defect with no permanent solution other than a band aid fix with a thicker oil. Face the facts here if you own one. Either hope for the best or unload it. No sense in burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is honky dory.

 

[TCDiesel]

JJJ, I'm not a noble spokesmen that's for sure, My hearts in every keystroke.

Bnks334 is welcome to his view weather it be head in the sand or NOT, He's over line when promoting his view as fact. Your post and mine clearly show QC problems (Fact) and the solution is thicker Lube ....ugh, and they still are failing at alarming rates .Heck we machine are products to Lube, tighter for those that want to run 20-50w and looser for 50w race, all My race motors run 50w and are spec for that lube.

 

[Bnks334]

TC might be a little rough around the edges, but you are in total denial. I know for a fact that FCA has replaced thousands of engines due to bottom end failures. We don't know the actual failure rate but it's somewhere between 5% and 8%. This is an insane amount of failures no two ways around it. Here's a screen shot of another internal email from FCA whereas they are calling the bearing failure a defect with no permanent solution other than a band aid fix with a thicker oil. Face the facts here if you own one. Either hope for the best or unload it. No sense in burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is honky dory.

You realize that epa mandated oil specs are the issue presented there and not a manufacturing defect or "quality control," right? Playing telephone with tidbits of information and morphing it to mean something it doesnt... There is no rod bearing manufacturing defect or quality control issues with crank shafts or something along those lines presented in that e-mail.

Where is the evidence of these thousands of ecodiesel bottom end failures and the analysis that has proven it to be a manufacturing issue??? I'll still point to forum conjecture as your backing for that.

FCA was literally just investigated by the EPA. If there were an abnormally high rate of bearing failures pointing to a manufacturing defect that fca could be held liable for then the FTC would be all over it.

Just to drop a bit of knowledge on you... the only way a manufacturer can demand a certain oil must be used, like fca is demanding with rotella T6, is if they prove to the FTC that the vehicle will only perform correctly with that oil. So yeah I'm guessing the FTC already knows all it would need to bring suit against FCA for some negligent manufacturing defect you guys keep inferring exists.

 

[TFucili]

I never said it was, now did I?

I own two inline 6 turbos... an ecodiesel and a bmw 135i.

Misunderstood the above, I guess.

 

[Dan_69GTX]

Misunderstood the above, I guess.

Well... each 3 cylinders are in a line. And are parallel to the truck.

Maybe he is the one buying all of them from auction and storing them in a barn for the replacement engines he will need.

 

[TFucili]

Well... each 3 are in a line. And are parallel to the truck.

Maybe he is the one buying all of them from auction and storing them in a barn for the replacement engines he will need.

I've got no dog in this hunt. First off, I'd not own one for the same reasons I cited on another thread about the 5.0 Cummins, V configuration, aluminum heads, chain driven cams, and a CP4. Admittedly I am eating crow on the CP4, as my '19 CTD will have it, and believe me I am concerned. Secondly, I knew folks that had the cam gear issue, and when I spoke to a couple techs, without saying too much, it was pretty clear they did not care a lick for the ED, and there was much left unsaid. Thirdly, while I consider this my "home forum", I participate on others, and I saw too many folks with stacks of mtc records, with bone-stock trucks, not abused, that had catastrophic bottom-end failure while motoring along empty. Anecdotal? You bet, but much more than coincidence. Lastly, and this is just my pure dislike for GM showing, but remember the ED was originally developed with GM, and it has their fingerprints all over the scattered bottom ends.

Somebody can brag all they want about how many engines they put together. I have too. That and 86 cents will buy you a senior coffee at McDonalds.

I hope the revised ED rolling out soon is much improved, and a hit for Ram.

 

[TCDiesel]

Post 129 LMBO...Its next to impossible to prove legal negligence. Yep If Fiat was NOT sole owner of VM, it would be modern day Navistar/Ford 6.0 Lawsuit.

 

[TCDiesel]

Post 102-103 2015-18 VM 3.0
https://www.ecodieselram.com/forum/threads/2018-problems.2336/page-6#post-21697

 

[sag2]

The math does not add up. I looked at the engine numbers and they are running at 1500 engines per year. So if we can trust Todd's 260 per month failure rate at the end of 2016, (remember they were up 30% and 60% during 2016 to get to the 260 number) that is so somewhere around 2340 engines for 2016. The rate peaked sometime after 2016 and is back down to 1500 per year now. There were a little over 100,000 vehicles built with the ED, so the failure rate is actually closer to 5%-8%. As Bnks334 stated, you can't use the monthly failures compared to the monthly production, you have to compare the failures to the entire vehicle population.
We know the failure rate is very high for the ED, but I also have not seen any proof that it is a lack of quality control at VM as Todd keeps saying. It appears to be more of a design concern where they designed the engine for the lighter Euro spec oil, but it didn't protect the rotating parts as well as they expected.
If you review my article in Issue 104 you will see that the two engines I have at the college were replaced for technician error, yet they are also counted in those "rotating mass failure engine replacements" Todd keeps referring to. So just like Bnks334 said, all failures are lumped into the same group because they are only looking at the total number of engine replacements. I'm still in dealerships every week all over CA and some dealers have yet to replace an ED engine.

 

[JJJ]

You realize that epa mandated oil specs are the issue presented there and not a manufacturing defect or "quality control," right? Playing telephone with tidbits of information and morphing it to mean something it doesnt... There is no rod bearing manufacturing defect or quality control issues with crank shafts or something along those lines presented in that e-mail.

Where is the evidence of these thousands of ecodiesel bottom end failures and the analysis that has proven it to be a manufacturing issue??? I'll still point to forum conjecture as your backing for that.

FCA was literally just investigated by the EPA. If there were an abnormally high rate of bearing failures pointing to a manufacturing defect that fca could be held liable for then the FTC would be all over it.

Just to drop a bit of knowledge on you... the only way a manufacturer can demand a certain oil must be used, like fca is demanding with rotella T6, is if they prove to the FTC that the vehicle will only perform correctly with that oil. So yeah I'm guessing the FTC already knows all it would need to bring suit against FCA for some negligent manufacturing defect you guys keep inferring exists.

You're putting too much faith in the EPA and FTC. I know for a fact that FCA replaced over 3,000 engines per year for the MY 2014-2016. This is not public information and I will not share my source, but I can assure you it's accurate. Put your head back in the sand.

 

[TCDiesel]

I will concede their seems to be a drop in the failures, its related to the drop in sales... Coon Rapids Chry are selling 100-200 Gas 1/2 tons to every 1 3.0VM Per month We have over 300 1/2 tons on the lot and NOT 1 Ecodiesel New ,and the only ED we have is used is My 2015. Also recall NO 2017 were sold.

#ad

 

[Bnks334]

I will concede their seems to be a drop in the failures, its related to the drop in sales... Coon Rapids Chry are selling 100-200 Gas 1/2 tons to every 1 3.0VM Per month We have over 300 1/2 tons on the lot and NOT 1 Ecodiesel New ,and the only ED we have is used is My 2015. Also recall NO 2017 were sold.

The math does not add up. I looked at the engine numbers and they are running at 1500 engines per year. So if we can trust Todd's 260 per month failure rate at the end of 2016, (remember they were up 30% and 60% during 2016 to get to the 260 number) that is so somewhere around 2340 engines for 2016. The rate peaked sometime after 2016 and is back down to 1500 per year now. There were a little over 100,000 vehicles built with the ED, so the failure rate is actually closer to 5%-8%. As Bnks334 stated, you can't use the monthly failures compared to the monthly production, you have to compare the failures to the entire vehicle population.
We know the failure rate is very high for the ED, but I also have not seen any proof that it is a lack of quality control at VM as Todd keeps saying. It appears to be more of a design concern where they designed the engine for the lighter Euro spec oil, but it didn't protect the rotating parts as well as they expected.
If you review my article in Issue 104 you will see that the two engines I have at the college were replaced for technician error, yet they are also counted in those "rotating mass failure engine replacements" Todd keeps referring to. So just like Bnks334 said, all failures are lumped into the same group because they are only looking at the total number of engine replacements. I'm still in dealerships every week all over CA and some dealers have yet to replace an ED engine.

The even bigger issue here is that the information being regurgitated on these forums like the gospel is based off this guys friend giving him sales information from"coon rapids" dealership as if that is representative of the GLOBAL eco-diesel market. The other numbers claiming thousands of failures are not backed by anything as far as I know other than word of mouth. "I know this bro that told me his bro told him that there were 260 failures per month." The actual "leaked e-mail," which doesn't even look real and is magically the only thing that surfaced publicly out of supposedly 1600 non-existent leaked pages, doesn't give any numbers.

What if the supposed 260 failures/month are for GLOBAL eco-diesel sales? That cuts the supposed failure rate by a 1/3 AT LEAST. Further, since it's all word of mouth, no one knows for sure those numbers were even rod bearing failures. And even further, no one knows if 100% of those failures were defects or owner induced. You have people on here on these forums talking about doing 9k mile oil changes as if they are treating their engines extra good. What a joke... I wouldn't run the oil out past 5k miles in these things unless you're doing straight up hundreds of miles a day out on the highway without any stop/go.

I have yet to see any threads of people tearing down engines or showing any kind of actual mechanical inclination that they understand rod bearing failure or assessed actual failure mode of their engine. What is the factory rod bearing clearance? Has ANYONE torn down a low mileage eco-diesel and shown excessive rod bearing wear? If THOUSANDS of eco-diesels are blowing up, why are their literally only like 5 people posting on all these forums that can say they ACTUALLY experienced rod bearing failure? yes, here comes more made up BS to explain it all away...

99% of posts are people complaining about having to replace basic sensors at 100k miles and somehow grasping at straws to relate that to catastrophic engine failure. It's kind of a joke LOL. Go visit the BMW forums. Literally every generation of BMW engine produced over the past few decades has 100 pages+ of people tearing down engines because of a supposed rod bearing defect and there is STILL NO REAL ROD BEARING ISSUE. People replacing bearings in perfectly good engines because of fear-mongering: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1253084 And, how many S65 or S85 engines do you think BMW has sold? I bet a quite a bit less than the number of Eco-diesels Jeep has sold... You don't have anywhere near that level of effort on these forums to indicate anything is wrong. Again, it's all "vm quality control blah blah I don't know what I am talking about." Please enlighten us to what the rod bearing clearances were on all the engines you've torn down to indicate there is a QC issue causing rod bearing failure.

Why am I saying all this since it's all anecdotal? Because that's all everyone is doing on these forums too... People just don't like when someone comes along and points out how flawed their logic is by presenting plausible counter-points. Yeah I am going against the grain here, but, until you present something LOGICAL that can actually be PROVEN then you're just talking out your ass just like I am with my counter-points.

 

[sag2]

Spend a few dollars to join TDR and then read The Rest of the Story in the issue I referenced above. I think that'll answer several of your questions.

 

[Bnks334]

Spend a few dollars to join TDR and then read The Rest of the Story in the issue I referenced above. I think that'll answer several of your questions.

Real helpful. Just like these threads.