Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 24v gone at 14,000 miles

[whiteknight]

UPDATE: Saturday 11/09/02 My 38th birthday by the way.

My father-in-law and I were talking and he suggested that we do some tinkering on it figuring what was there to loose. So this afternoon my dad, my father-in-law and me decided that we would see what three shade tree mechanics could do. (The women called us the three stooges). We probably look redicules out there since we all have Dodge turbo diesels ( My father-in-law's 94, mine a 96 and dad's 01) . I crawled under it and since I had bought a barring tool, that I hadn't got to use yet, and tried turning the engine. It seemed to turn pretty easy so we decided what the heck. We drained what oil was left, about a quart or so and Dad had a new fleetguard filter and oil so we put the filter on and and filled'er up with oil.



It wouldn't hardly crank over at first and we noticed the lights would really dim so we hooked it up to some jumper cables and tried again. It would turn a little faster and would act like it would almost fire. We noticed that the little green "eye" on both batteries on dads truck were black. So we decided to just go a buy two new batteries. So we put two new batteries in and hooked the jumper cables back up for good measure and got in and tried again and after cranking for just a little bit it fired up and ran and idled as good as ever.



We were watching for any signs of leaks but found none. I was watching the oil pressure gauge and it was reading fairly high. I had the dads take a look because mine never showed that high and my father-in-law said that his never either. Dad had said that the oil pressure would peg at the top sometimes so we didn't know if it was the gauge or what. So after letting it idle for awhile we decided to take it for a short spin. I noticed as we pulled out on the highway that as the engine speed increased so did the oil pressure. Then as the engine began to warm up the pressure started dropping and going back up. It would drop down to about 20psi. At that pressure it would start knocking a little under acceleration. After getting it back to the house we were looking at it a discussing possibilities. I was watching the pressure and listening to it and then the pressure would drop to near zero so we shut it down and let it cool off for an hour or two and started it again. The pressure was up to about 40 then, so I turned it around in the driveway but the pressure would dip down pretty low even then. It never did have a light come on or the chime. The only indication was the gauge.



So the next thing we are going to do is have the oil pressure checked with a mechanical gauge to verify the readings. Our guess is the oil pump. It probably spiked the oil pressure so high that it was spraying oil out were ever it could. And now the oil pressure is just all over the place. We are hoping right now that maybe replace the oil pump and it might be alright. Lets hope.



We had half the family there as we were doing this and you never seen a crowd so happy to here a cummins deisel start in all your life. My mom was so happy that since my father-in-law suggested we give it a try that she asked him if she could give him a hug. Should have seen the look on his face!



I'll keep you posted as we continue to sort it all out. Thanks everyone for you replies and suggestions!



PS: Now all three of us have been given the title "the three wise men" by the women. Now that sure don't happen often.

 

[Sled Puller]

I have visions of a few thousand Diesel heads circling that dealership, pouring the coal in their doors... ... ... .

 

[Snow man]

Visions of Maximum overdrive come to mind-I can read the headline now A swarm of angry CTD;s surround the Dc dealer. Tracy i would drain a little oil out,if its full of metal,or shiny sliver/gold,dont run it anymore,your only making it worse,Also if your going to run it ,put a mechanical oil pressure guage on i,t the factory one isnt trustworthy,and its slow to respond to changes. Good luck

 

[whiteknight]

Hey snow man,

We looked at the oil we drained out of it and there was no sign of any shiny particles or metal. It didn't even smell burnt. But we have no intentions of running it any more until we get it to someone to find out why the oil pressure is doing what it's doing.

 

[JTroiano]

It sounds pretty good. I would keep a diary of all your time spent and all of the technical data. Take some more pictures. At this point if you took it to a Cummins dealer and had them check the oil pressure and pump and they determined that it was at fault I would take Dodge not the dealer to court for you head aches. We have reimbursed customers for things in the past. We also have much better customer service. Good luck and keep in mind that there could be a lot worse things that could happen in your life.

Jon T

 

[Motorhead]

I wonder if the pressure relief valve didn't stick and spike the oil pressure? It can go much higher than the 125psi test that Fleetguard tested the filter at. A filter seal can get pushed out but not destroyed. Chances are that the rod and mains are going to be toasted. Sure sorry for you guys. I think any members in the area of the dealer that the truck was bought should picket the dealer. I have been fighting a MUCH smaller battle with DC on a driveline noise with my truck. Keep us posted. Chris

 

[TowPro]

How long will it run before it starts to get noisy?

Can an un-experenced ear tell (dealers used car manager)?



IF DC ain't going to buy you a new motor, that money might be better spent on a down payment on a new one?

 

[jstarnes]

kinda off topic but

I have seen a Cat fork tift log 5 hours on an hour meter with NO oil in the pan under loaded conditions the operator called and said it had low power (turbo locked up)so we changed the turbo filled the engine to proper level with oil and tested the fork lift ran for about 25 more hours befor it started knocking (thinking of this makes me think of those old "Duralube" infomercials what a crock of crap those things were!)the fork lift was a TH83 w/a 4cyl percapillar (perkins made to Cat spech)

 

[Big_Daddy_T]

I would have cummins do the tests personally. If cummins proves its oil pump related you have a much better foot to stand on in court. A good dealer would just accept it wasnt the oil filters fault. Thats a good idea about having an independent lab retest the filter. I have been in battles that took months to resolve. A cool head and a reputable mechanic will do you alot of good. If they deny something that looks warranty to me I take it to cummins and get their professional opinion and go back to the dealer. They so far have listened to cummins.

So it looks like the oil pump over pressurized the motor and blew the oil out of ??? the filter. If you can prove it wasnt the filter the dealership will have to eat their words. But the gasket was intact. Dodge says filter is crap even though its oem. What scares me is that they didnt know it was oem. Where is the weak link in the oiling system? Where is the oil most likely to blow out of. They try to deny warrant because your dad does his own work. Is he ase certified. That would be a big help. Factory trained tech is cool sounding to a judge though.

Truck runs now but with sporatic pressure. What did dodge say, new motor? I think I would make them eat that. Dead battery on a new truck? Why.

Just cause its the dealership doesnt mean that they have competent people diagnosing the problems. My tech at the local dodge looked like he was 23(fresh out of tech school). I dont think he had worked on a diesel in his life. They were going to deny warranty on my bad out of the box 98 1/2 injection pump because of "too much pre fuel filter pressure". How is fuel pressure my fault?

 

[parcher]

Your Cummins center may be a D/C warrantee station for this repair. Call your customer service(?) number in the back of your owners manual. This is a relatively new agrrement with D/C and Cumming on the warrantee, (I got this info from my inside contact but have not verified yet)

 

[Pit Bull]

The guys they have changing oil around here are not ASE or any other kind of certified. They do the grunt work. Changing your own oil and filter should not void the warranty. They would have to prove you did it wrong. Any good lawyer can win this and get you a new truck out of the deal.

 

[Motorhead]

Changed the oil on my truck today and gave the filter a good look(Fleetguard). They have a good seal shoulder on it but I don't think that it would be impossable to blow out one.

I used to set up air-cooled VWs with full flow filters and they would occasionally blow a seal out if reved too much with cold engine and oil.

The Cumins oil pump has to be a pretty good capacity to be able to lube the engine AND have enough oil capacity and flow to keep the piston quenchers going.

My little VW diesel could generate 110 to 120 psi when cold with the oil pressure relief working.

Let Cummins look at the engine and get a bad a$$ lawyer. Chris

 

[whiteknight]

I don't have much to report. Dad did drain about a quart of oil out of the engine after the little test drive last Saturday and dad said it was full of metal so it looks as though there is at the very least some internal damage.



I was wondering about something though. I was looking through my warranty book on my 96 and there is a page that talks specifically about the Cummins diesel engine. It states that "ONLY the following engine parts and components are covered: cylinder block and all internal parts, cylinder head assemblies, core plugs, valve covers, oil pan, timing gear drive belts and/or chains and cover (I wondered if anybody has ever told them that there is no belts or chains), gaskets and seals for listed componets, oil pump, intake and exhaust manifolds, water pump and housing, turbocharger housing and internal parts, and fuel injection pump and injectors.



If we find that the cause was the oil pressure regulator valve, and since it is not specificly listed and is located outside of the engine block in the oil cooler and filter housing, Chrysler could actually be right in denying warranty. That could also be the case if the housing were cracked or the oil line to the turbo had ruptured.



I think mom and dad have decided that if they end up paying for this that they may have to take a loan out on the house. I hate to see them do that.

 

[Pit Bull]

Your engine is covered even if a non covered part caused the problem. Keep pushing your Dad will get a new engine.

 

[kevinthompson]

In the Maintenance schedule is there anywhere where it says to check or replace the oil pressure regulator? If not, and that is the cause then d/c should be at fault for not including it in the maintenence schedule. I would almost bet either that part or the owners manual will be in a future service bulletin.



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The dealer should want the engine to be covered under warranty. Business is slow right now and d/c pays for it if it is warranty.



Your dealers attitude should be "Lets get you back on the road asap and we will do everything we can to find out what went wrong. We will try everything we can think of to get fleetgaurd or d/c to pay for the job. If we can not then we will have to charge you for it but we will do it at our cost of parts + the mechanics actual wages.



If your dealer does not agree with the above two paragraphs then you really should find another dealer.

 

[kevinthompson]

I an an independent distributor for farm tractor parts. From time to time I have warranty issues come up. I would like to share with you my perspective.

1. Warranties are bad. Everbody loses.

2. First priority lets get the tractor back in the field asap.

3. Once that is done the next step is to figure who is going to pay for it?

4. The only time the customer pays is if it is caused from abuse and it can be proven.

5. If the mechanic installed the parts incorrectly then the he eats it. We can usually tell. We will usually provide the replacement parts at a cut rate to help him out.

6. When no reason can be found for the failure or we find the parts are defective then we assume full responsibility. Parts and labor on covered items.

7. Every time there is a warranty or possible warranty. People are going to talk about it. It can be good or it can be bad.



Sometimes we can get what we want if we understand what the others persons needs are. Hope this helps

 

[Snow man]

I worked for a few different manufacturers ,and ive never seen anything like this situation. Even extended warrantys cover the engine,and all internal parts. The companys i worked for always did the same,we would have had the truck back to the owner in 3-4 days,warrantied. DC must be really tightening its belt,this is clearly a warranty issue,not neglect,abuse,or the fault of cheap lube filters/poor quality work. At this point how long can you go without the truck?Did you write or have an your attorney write DC managemant yet?,or start a file with the attorney general/better business bureau. I feel for you,this is total BS.

 

[GDouglas]

I have an idea for you whiteknight. Since you said that after you ran the engine again with new oil and filter and it didn't make much noise for a little while, then take it to another Dodge dealer for a simple oil change. You may have to tow your truck to just around the corner from the dealer to avoid any more possible engine noises. Then be first in line in the morning for a top notch dealer performed oil change. Afterwards, you will have documentation in hand that your oil was changed by the professionals and your engine started making noises before getting around the corner from the dealership. Then double back to the dealership after a few minutes of driving and explain that your truck was not making that noise before the oil change they just performed. Being that you are well inside of the DC warranty, the dealer will go ahead and warranty your engine by pulling some strings that dealers always do when they make a mistake and you will probably get a new engine out of the deal. Heck, they may even refund your money for the oil change after all is said and done.



Good luck!

 

[JTroiano]

GDouglas, Thats BS No wonders the good dealers have to worry about people scamming them. Because there our people out there like you!



Sorry to the rest of you but thats not right. Keep the pressure on Dodge and I bet they will do the right thing. Be a broken record and take it to another dealer.



Jon T

 

[Big-D]

Trying to cheat the Dealer is not the way to go! That makes us no better than them. Stick with your story, be firm, serious, to the point and professional. I've found that wins in just about every case.



Two wrongs do not make a right. This whole situation makes me feel sick inside as I'm sure it does others, but at least you can hold your head high for not being like them. Stay the course.

Dave