Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) 2nd blow head gasket what gives

[Mhannink]

ok so my buddie has a 97 dodge 5 speed fueled about as much as stock equipment can it has a 4k gsk and arp custom 650 studs the head is new just put on and hes a handful of miles. we had a hg pop at 40 lbs both times the torgue specs say to torgue to 96ftlbs wich seems low to me though the service manuel says 85 or 89 but 96 still seems too low for high performance. what do ya'll think?

 

[Signal73]

With 625 studs I would tq to 150 ft lbs with moly, 96 is low. Im pretty sure they revised that...

 

[Forrest Nearing]

what he said... 96ftlbs on such an exotic alloy doesn't stretch the fastener NEAR as much as a stock bolt...

 

[Mhannink]

thats what i figured i had said something at the time but wasnt sure enough to say they(arp) where wrong. so we went with what arp said

 

[CumminsPower98]

You also need to re-torque them several times before you go to full boost because the HG settles some at first and the studs need to break in as well. On my first try I went 96, warmed it up and let cool then went to 110 and headed out towing. Well it finally let go at 35 psi and under. The next gasket got 125 with 3 re-torques before I topped it out at 30 psi on the stock turbo for towing and it's held that way for about 127k miles.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

what he said... 96ftlbs on such an exotic alloy doesn't stretch the fastener NEAR as much as a stock bolt...

Yeah but 96 ft/lbs using moly on fine thread studs gives you a lot more clamping force than 120 ft/lbs on stock bolts.



150 seems way too high IMO, shouldn't 120-125 be tops Signal 73?

 

[Woodenhead]

What are these custom 650 studs? Are they different than the 12mm ARPs I have? I thought there were only 12mm or 14mm.



Did you do a hot re-torque or any other re-torques? Is the head o-ringed or just a stock gasket?



Are you using a quality torque wrench? Probably a dumb question but sometimes I'm surprised how far out even a good wrench can be out when I sent it out for calibration, I can't imagine what an el cheapo would be not.



I know you said it's a new head but it couldn't hurt to check it for flatness while it's off. Is it one of those Chinese heads or?



I torqued it to 125 ft-lbs. I ran it up to temp, let it cool a bit to about 140 and did a hot re-torque. Ran it a few times and kept the boost under 20lbs, checked torque again (cold). Ran it a few more times over a couple hundred miles and took the nuts off, re-lubed with ARP lube and re-torqued it again tonight. My head is o-ringed and these were basically the recommendations from a guy that's built many performance B engines. I know after all this I'll be big time po'd if I spring a leak.



Good Luck,

Mike

 

[raychem]

Yeah but 96 ft/lbs using moly on fine thread studs gives you a lot more clamping force than 120 ft/lbs on stock bolts.



150 seems way too high IMO, shouldn't 120-125 be tops Signal 73?

On those studs... I would go 150 min and 165-170 is not out of the ordinary for that stud.





Vaughn, he is running the 650. . or is it the 625 sieres stud which is much stronger then the standard studs which are good for 125. the 625 sieres is good for 170 plus!





Richard



PS: I hope that head and block were both checked for deflection and that both surfaces were flat. . like . 002 to . 004 variation front to back and . 004 i don't like. If this was not done, do it now or many other HG will go south.





Richard

 

[fest3er]

For my '98 12V, the SM says:

• lube all bolts
• torque all bolts to 66 lb-ft
• re-torque all to 66 lb-ft
• torque long bolts to 90 lb-ft
• re-torque long bolts to 90 lb-ft
• turn all bolts 1/4 turn more

Do these studs need that final 1/4 turn?

 

[Signal73]

Yeah but 96 ft/lbs using moly on fine thread studs gives you a lot more clamping force than 120 ft/lbs on stock bolts.



150 seems way too high IMO, shouldn't 120-125 be tops Signal 73?

For the 12 mm Custom age 625's it's OK Vaughn, But for the regular 12mm ARP 2000's your 125 is correct. Guess thats why there $1200 vs. $400



Fest3er, That procedure is correct for factory headbolts, which are torque to yeild design, whereas ARP's are not.



Jim

 

[Mhannink]

the torque wrench is probably not right since the owner stores it set at whatever it was set at last. but it feels close so its not to bad. the 650 studs are 12mm studs that hold like 14s. but regardless i thought it was a little low. we will up the torque and see what it does. and no worries i know about retorqueing the studs

 

[Hammer]

Beware of the 650's though... .



They are just like using the 14mm's and will distort the block when you torque them that high. Unless you are planning excessive boost I would have stayed with the standard 12mm stud kits... ... . Andy

 

[tlgdiesel]

The first set of ARP studs I installed following the instructions to a T. That was A big mistake. I drove it about 3 miles befoere blowing the headgasket. The 96ft lbs is not enough with or without the molly lube. It might hold up to stock timing and boost levels but I blew my gasket at 17 degrees timing and 25 psi boost with the studs torqued at 96 with moly. I am now torqued to 125with 17. 5 timing and 50 max boost for 30,000 with no issue.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

For the 12 mm Custom age 625's it's OK Vaughn, But for the regular 12mm ARP 2000's your 125 is correct. Guess thats why there $1200 vs. $400



Fest3er, That procedure is correct for factory headbolts, which are torque to yeild design, whereas ARP's are not.



Jim

OK, thanks for the info Jim.

 

[JGK]

Just to redirect the thread slightly...



At one time there was talk of using a sealant on the gasket that is used by Yamaha on bike and/or snowmobile heads, which is supposed to greatly improve sealing and holding capability of the gasket. Now I doubt it will take the place of ensuring flat surfaces (milled head and/or block) and improper torquing, but I would think it would be worth using anytime the gasket it replaced. However I've never seen any mention of it again.



Was that a flash in the pan?



-Jay

 

[GDMRTN]

I don't know exactly what studs I have. They're ARP. That's all I know. I torqued them to 150 and snapped the one all the way at the back of the engine. I wouldn't recommend over 150 unless the studs are new. Or known to be able to take more.

 

[Jetpilot]

The ARP 625+ studs should be toqued to 150#, they are silver in color (stainless steel). The ARP 2000 studs should be torqued to 125# (they are black in color). ARP says to use the same torque for their moly or oil. Personally I use the ARP moly and lots of it!



If your instructions said to torque to 96# you have a very old set of instructions from an ARP 2000 set. The new instructions say to torque to 125# using moly. Also the ARP 625+ studs do not include ARP instructions, these studs were procured by PDW and only a few sets were made (about 50 total).



Doug

 

[Don Tanklage]

yamabond #4

Just to redirect the thread slightly...



At one time there was talk of using a sealant on the gasket that is used by Yamaha on bike and/or snowmobile heads, which is supposed to greatly improve sealing and holding capability of the gasket. Now I doubt it will take the place of ensuring flat surfaces (milled head and/or block) and improper torquing, but I would think it would be worth using anytime the gasket it replaced. However I've never seen any mention of it again.



Was that a flash in the pan?



-Jay

YMC makes some crazy sealers. i use yamabond #4 (which is a semi-drying sealant)for stuff like sealing the case halves when assembling a 1500cc pro stock bike engine. the stuff is awesome. those engines were designed for 60 hp and i can get over 325 out of one (and no leaky). i once used #4 for a boat motor i did. 16-71 blower, roller cam, copper head gaskets, etc. dont remember who built the first motor but the guy kept blowing head gaskets. everything was flat. head was o-ringed. studs, etc. so... i threw it together with yamabond #4. the guy took it out and loved the way it ran. then, he looked over the bill and saw that i had put a billet roller in it. (it had one in it when i took it apart and he didnt want me to change any specs, just wanted the head gskt to stop blowing and replace anything that needed replacing). well, one of the lobes was chipped and i couldnt find that exact cam any longer so i had one ground as close as i could get (but a little longer and bigger). when the guy saw it was a roller he - get this: paid me to take it apart and put a flat tappet in it. lol. so i explained that the springs i put in it had too much seat pressure for a solid lifter cam and they would have to come out too. he didnt care, said pull the heads and do it. bottom line - it took me half a day to get the heads off this thing. that yamabond is crazy. i ended up with about seven feet of 2x4 and my 200# hanging and bouncing on the other end to pry ea head off.



they make different models but that is what it is called - yamabond



don