Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting 45/70

[BIGNASTY]

Greg is this the gun that your talking about Marlin Model 1895M in 450 Marlin THIS HAS PROMIS I like the idea of 6 rounds of 400 or 405 gr of big time WOOP A**. Any others with idea's for MAJOR STOPPING POWER would be appreciated ( I dont know why it has 450 marlin on it but the pic and info is correct) I like the SS but not the scope mount

 

[goodguys75]

my vote is for 338 lapua:-laf

 

[BIGNASTY]

I have a 338/378 that's not real good when something angry is coming at you CLOSE UP AND P OFF 450 Marlin vs Grizzly Bears - YouTube I HAVE GOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO GET ME ONE OF THESE I think the 45/70 might be a little better JUST BECAUSE of brass avaliblity Starline has 45/70 1000 for $360. 00 not bad its not like im going to pop off rounds just to shoot it. Blastic's are about the same and the 450 brass has got to cost more because of the belt rather than the rimed case of the 45/70

 

[GHarman]

BIG, Both rounds are good. However, the . 45/70 is an outstanding versitile cartridge. The . 450 Marlin is proprietary. You cant make it from other belted cases as the belt is wider than the H&H based stuff, et al.

Heres the one I may trade for.

Marlin Model 1895GBL

There is the SBL stainless steel model, but I prefer the blue, for practical reasons.

Note, this has a capacity of 6 ROUNDS!

Comparison- a 12 Ga. 1 Oz slug; (one ounce is 435 Grains)

Conventional Foster type rifled slugs generally weigh 1 ounce in 12 gauge, 4/5 ounce in 16 gauge, 5/8 ounce in 20 gauge, and 1/5 ounce (or 87 grains) in . 410 gauge. The 12 gauge slug has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1560 fps from a 2 3/4" high-brass shell, 1680 fps from a 2 3/4" Magnum shell, or 1760 fps from a 3" Magnum shell. These are Remington figures from their 2004 catalog. The MV's of the other gauges are similar.

. 45/70 +P loads

Garrett Cartridges Inc.

From Hodgdons web site, 400 Gr. Data;

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon Varget . 458" 2. 540" 50. 0 1655 18,600 CUP 55. 0C 1845 25,000 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4064 . 458" 2. 540" 53. 5 1808 29,700 CUP 57. 0C 1918 36,400 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4895 . 458" 2. 540" 54. 0 1785 30,500 CUP 58. 0C 1930 38,600 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H335 . 458" 2. 540" 52. 0 1798 25,400 CUP 58. 0 1995 40,000 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H4895 . 458" 2. 540" 50. 0 1614 19,200 CUP 55. 0C 1859 26,500 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 3031 . 458" 2. 540" 51. 0 1809 26,900 CUP 55. 0C 1971 37,300 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon Benchmark . 458" 2. 540" 55. 0 1856 29,600 CUP 58. 5C 1986 40,000 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H322 . 458" 2. 540" 50. 0 1767 23,700 CUP 55. 0C 1984 39,200 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP IMR IMR 4198 . 458" 2. 540" 43. 0 1868 31,600 CUP 46. 0 1960 37,600 CUP

400 GR. SPR JFP Hodgdon H4198 . 458" 2. 540" 46. 0 1854 29,500 CUP 50. 5 2002 39,400 CUP

NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

The . 45/70 gains efficiency with a smaller diameter, longer projectile the same approximate weight(435 {12 ga} vs 420 and 400Gr. {. 45/70}) as the foster 12 ga slug, and moving slightly faster.

The . 450 Marlin is also a monster, but IMHO not as widely used as the . 45/70. However, here is an interesting point! The . 450Marlin 1895M barrel is threaded into the receiver with 60* V threads and a larger diameter barrel tenon. The . 45/70 barrels utilize a centuries old "square thread" design and smaller diameter barrel tenon where it threads into the receiver (Information from M. L. McPhersons, Accurizing the Factory Rifle) Pressures and velocities are similar between the two rounds loaded to their potential in the Marlin receiver.

Hope this sheds some light on your question! GregH

 

[JKreiss]

Are we talking about bear "hunting" or bear "defense?" I'm very interested in this because obviously it's important. I was always under the impression you wanted something you could bring up quick and start getting rounds off (pistol), is that correct? Are you thinking a rifle might be better suited for that? FWIW i have an 1895G and i love it, just wish i hadn't scoped it.

 

[GHarman]

Joe, GOOD Choice, 1895G! Horse and mule packing vs your particular needs. Its Your plan, practice it!

 

[JKreiss]

Thank you, it really is an exceptional rifle. I'm starting to get back to the bench now that winter is slowing setting in. I'm going to start experimenting with some recipes and see what kind of performance i can get out of it. I just ordered 100 rounds of brass and am still deciding on a bullet. Anyhow i've been thinking a lot lately on a self defense in the woods. I carry a . 44 but that means dropping the rifle, drawing the pistol, and squeezing rounds off. Out here in looney land are main problem is cats (you're lucky if you even get to see it before you get hit). I've seen lots of black bear but they tend to just go about there business. I'm going to Idaho or Colorado next year for elk/mule deer so i want to be ready. I guess just find what I feel most comfortable with? I'm uneducated on brown/grizzly bears, definitely don't want to learn the hard way.

 

[The patriot]

I have one of the older ported 1985's. The guide gun.

Mine had a williams peep sight on it when I got it. I took it off and put a set of AO Ashley sights on it with a picatinny rail/scope mount.

Like stated, the 45-70 can be loaded just about as hot as the 450 marlin, but it'll save some $$$ because of cheaper brass.

There was a good write up on the marlin in 45-70 in Accurate rifle a few years back.

A jacketed 405 flat nose @ 2000 more or less FPS is quite formidable.

We dont have many large angry black furry critters around here.

However I'd bet there isnt much deflection of one of these slugs going through windshields or car doors. :-laf I wouldnt think much light cover would be helpful either. :-laf:-laf

 

[BIGNASTY]

Defence

Thanks for the info Greg your always a big help on the gun end of this forum. I like the idea of 6 rounds of Woop A** at 400 gr. Im leaning toward the SS with just open sights I need to get it out of a horse mounted scabbard and not have any hang ups. The ss is nice as it is still raining in MT and if the rivers dont drop soon we will have to make a 37 mile ride to get into camp. The ss would hold up better in wet conditions im sure you can understand that. JKreiss yes it strickle a defensive weapon for me. I had as you said in your post A LEARNING experience last hunting season. Thing's I learned were DO NOT RIDE IN THE MOUNTAINS WITH YOU I POD and GET THE BIGGEST BADDEST most UNRULLEY GUN that you can use. . Black Bears are not usually a problem as they are more timid. Grizzly on the other hand fear nothing at least not some half witt mounted on a mule that is smarter than the rider(me) listening to his I pod (Richard Elliot) totaly unaware of what was or could have happened. Short of packing a LAW's rocket/ M79 grenade launcher/ M60 all of wich im sure would be illegal :-laf I had to find the Marlin 45/70

 

[GHarman]

A shoulder fired pack howitzer

One of my favorite thin skinned game loads is a 350 Gr Hawk hollow point with the . 025" thick jacket and Reloader 7 powder in WW . 45/70 cases. Not as big bear medicine, but as an efficient deer and elk smasher. I shot one Wyoming doe at about 80 yards, through the lungs with one of these and it left a 5" exit hole coming out the other side.

My rifle was an older 1895 Marlin with the micro groove barrel. It was suprisingly very accurate. It was carrying a 3X Lyman (steel tube) scope and a 22" barrel.

I've loaded and shot 400 Grain Speer bullets (Cow Elk at 175 yards. Complete penetration ,lengthwise!), 350 Gr. Hornady Round nose and the above mentioned Hawks in both hollow point and flat nosed configurations(Deer and Antelope as well as Coyotes and other "varmints"!). That rifle was a game killer!

It was originally my Alaska Bear medicine. Since I decided to not move there, the rifle was sold to a good friend that had need of a big bore saddle gun. They did not offer the Guide guns till much later. Reckon my Friend still has that . 45/70.

You can cast your practice bullets from wheel weights and save a bundle. 200 bullets would pay for your mould. It would just beat you to death:-laf! with full powered practice loads. A reduced Black powder equivalent load would get you plenty of trigger time without looking like you got beat on the shoulder with a 4X4. I'm here to tell you that a light weight rifle, launching heavy bullets at 2000 FPS, kills at both ends:-laf. Whiplash and bruises:-lafOo. . Pain is GOOD, Pain is CLEAN, Pain Promotes DISCIPLINE!Oo.

Have Fun!

Just remember, only hits count! GregH

 

[GHarman]

Further information on the .45/70

Hawk Bullets; see . 45 caliber, . 458 diameter

Hawk Precision Bullets PRICE LIST



These bullets do not have a cannelure for crimping.

With the soft copper jackets, the reloader can crimp directly into the jacket in a series of separate crimping operations. An additional "tight grip" loading procedure for tubular magazines eliminates the expander ball when full length sizing. This gives the brass maximum spring tension on the bullet as well as the crimp.



Barnes Reloading manual #4 Provides data for the marlin in a 24" barrel. The 400 gr. original style bullet is clocking 1996 FPS with Alliant Reloader 7 powder.



Heres a picture of some loaded . 45/70 configurations I have used in various rifles.

L-R, 350 Gr Hawk FP, 350 Gr Hawk HP, 300 Gr. Nosler Partition, 400Gr Barnes semi-spitzer (for single shot Ruger #1), 500Gr Lazer cast and an empty . 30/06 case for comparison. Only two samples are crimped. The others were loaded for a single shot rifle. However, the configuration is similar for the lever action rifle with the exception of the Semi-Spitzer load. GregH

 

[The patriot]

I havent finalized a load for mine, but I'm pretty much married to the 405 remington slug. I got a metric ton of them before the prices went wild. :-laf



I also layed in a good supply of winchester brass.

 

[GHarman]

Patriot, There is no "standard load" for this round. You load for your application:-laf. Back in the day when Trapdoor Springfields could be had for $20, I built several BP target rifles, a shotgun and other interesting toys. You can load multiple ball rounds, reduced plinking loads, and loads that I will not post publically! While it is not an artillery piece, it is a very versatile cartridge, especially in modern rifles. From hunting loads that will develop nearly 4ooo foot pounds of energy, to 1000 yard target shooting(you talk about wind doping skills:-laf), to indoor gallery loads. This cartridge excels with black or smokeless powder. Pistol powders like Unique and 2400 or as slow as H-4895 and IMR-4064. FFG Black, CTG Black.

If you shoot BP you need to scrub/wash your cases in hot soapy water(chlorine free detergent) as well as the rifle bore. The corrosivity is not near so severe as we no longer use mercuric primers as standard ignition for centerfire cartridges. However, the moisture absorbsion issue is real. Have fun! GregH

 

[GHarman]

Randy Garrett discusses the .45/70

Heres a link to some good commentary that may have been missed. He discusses the wound channel and how best to deliver the payload for maximum effect. Enjoy! GregH



Garrett Cartridges Inc.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Still have to run flat nose bullets in tubular mag's

 

[GHarman]

Still have to run flat nose bullets in tubular mag's

Absolutely! The Hornady flextip, excepted. However that bullet is a lightweight. All the 400Gr. bullets and loads are for a flatpoint bullet. With the recoil generated, it is an absolute necessity to prevent a chain discharge in the tubular magazine. Primers seated below flush are another necessity. Brass prep is extensive and primer pockets must be cut square(in the corners) for the primer to seat consistently and below flush with the base of the case.

 

[The patriot]

Greg, yea it's pretty dam versatile.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Got my Marlin today and some Rem. Ammo better than nothing I guess Greg. the SS guide came with a limbsaver recoil pad. Not that bad of a kick. 405 gr Rem Express. soft point. Order some of the Garret 420 gr the guy at the gun store said boy you are serious about something. :-laf I told him I want to go squirrel hunting next weekend.

 

[The patriot]

99% of the factory stuff in underpowered.

IIRC Cor-bon sells 40K psi+ ammo.

One or two other places do but I cant remember them off the top of my head.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Have dies powder slugs brass primers coming just dont have them yet. I guess it's the price I pay to live in the Boonies. Ill live with it LOL Just a min of sun but the water is still running high