$590.00 fine yesterday for not enough license

[CUMMINZ]

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Click here to see ticket...

 

[HBarlow]

Cumminz,

I regret that this learning experience cost you $590 but it is a good reason for an informative discussion for the rest of us.

The thread allowed some of us to dig into our memories to recall and clarify what we learned some time before and others to gain new information and understanding.

Many TDR members use their trucks to haul heavy trailers at least on occasion and towing often puts us out on the highways where we are visible to DOT cops. It is good to have an understanding of the laws.

I had owned and pulled heavy RV trailers for many years and work trailers occasionally without having a clue until I went to work for an RV transport company in January 2005. That company, Horizon Transport is one of the most professional in the industry. Horizon operates and requires its drivers to operate in strict compliance with DOT regulations in all states. I learned a lot in their orientation training and from my time on the road for them. Later I worked for another company that required me to pull heavier trailers (over 26k combined) so I got a CDL with ease because of what I had already learned. I don't haul commercially any more but it is good information to know.

 

[brods]

Cumminz,



I regret that this learning experience cost you $590 but it is a good reason for an informative discussion for the rest of us.



The thread allowed some of us to dig into our memories to recall and clarify what we learned some time before and others to gain new information and understanding.



... ... ...

X2



I remember the frustration trying to get answers about 10K GVW trailers out of PennDot years ago. Nobody had solid answers, not the DMV or the Troopers who are supposed to enforce the laws. So what do you do? Bet most people in PA do not realize trailers over 3K need annual inspections. No one ever did them, but its in the code! (Or used to be anyway).



NC has both CDL and non-CDL class A, B & C licences. NCDOT Division of Motor Vehicles: Driver Handbook: Chapter 1



Cumminz, did he say anything about the ties hanging over the edge of the trailer? Do you think that might have initially caught his attention?

 

[Pavemen]

My license was OK and got ticket because my truck license tag was for 10k. I did not exceed my GVWs. Neither truck or trailer. Simply I did not have enough tag to cover total load.

so what does the DMV there give as max tag weight for your truck? Do they use the MFG supplied GVWR or what? where is your allowed max weight stated on your registration?



are they comparing the actual combined weight to the trucks registration allowable weight? in NC, are you required to have registration for your combined weight, at the minimum? here in CA, I register for MFG gross weight (10,500 for my 3500) and max allowable as far as I know is based on combined and the 10k trailer, 26k combined rule. trailer is all by itself



i am getting confused by the slight tangents this thread has taken. am i wrong with my understanding of CA laws as well?

 

[SRadke]

95% of the diesel pickups towing trailers (rv's excluded) on the highway are doing so illegally. This is the first example I've heard of where the laws have actually been upheld.

 

[steved]

X2



Bet most people in PA do not realize trailers over 3K need annual inspections. No one ever did them, but its in the code! (Or used to be anyway).



Cumminz, did he say anything about the ties hanging over the edge of the trailer? Do you think that might have initially caught his attention?

PA still has the trailer inspection, but it is rarely enforced... they recently changed so you can register a trailer under 10k for five years. I try to play by the rules, but neither of my big trailers are currently inspected... one is only a couple months out, the other hasn't moved in several years. If I intend to use one or the other anytime soon, I'll drag them to the local garage and have them looked at...



I have found the more legal you appear, the less hassle you get in the long run. I thought the same thing when I looked at the picture... the front bunk of ties probably caused a red flag.



As a driller, we would use the same truck and only the person loading/strapping would be the difference. I take time to fold the loose strap ends (even with my own truck still), everything looks neat and secure. The other guy would haphazardly throw the loose ends back and forth across the truck, and while his load was as secure as mine, the load looked really bad. Nine times out of ten, he would get nailed going into New Jersey while I could drive back and forth for a week and never get a glance from the HP. In the two years drilling, I never got pulled over in any of the big trucks, he got pulled over almost every time we went out.

 

[Pavemen]

I went and looked up NC rules for weight and found that its a "declared weight" setup there. Given the section below, I suppose that the OP had his truck tagged for the truck only and did not allow for trailer weights? hence the 9300# overweight?

Chapter 20

§ 20‑88. Property‑hauling vehicles.
(a) Determination of Weight. - For the purpose of licensing, the weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles shall be the empty weight and heaviest load to be transported, as declared by the owner or operator; provided, that any determination of weight shall be made only in units of 1,000 pounds or major fraction thereof, weights of over 500 pounds counted as 1,000 and weights of 500 pounds or less disregarded. The declared gross weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles operated in conjunction with trailers or semitrailers shall include the empty weight of the vehicles to be operated in the combination and the heaviest load to be transported by such combination at any time during the registration period, except that the gross weight of a trailer or semitrailer is not required to be included when the operation is to be in conjunction with a self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicle which is licensed for 6,000 pounds or less gross weight and the gross weight of such combination does not exceed 9,000 pounds, except wreckers as defined under G. S. 20‑4. 01(50). Those property‑hauling vehicles registered for 4,000 pounds shall be permitted a tolerance of 500 pounds above the weight permitted under the table of weights and rates appearing in subsection (b) of this section.

 

[jelag]

Guys... . Guys... ... forget the state laws... they all comply to the FEDERAL DOT laws... .



Its the FEDERAL DOT standards that set the requirements for the class licenses...



Earlier it was mentioned that some farms and hay haulers don't follow the law... . Remember that FEDERAL law allows farmers to work within 150 (or 200) can't remember the exact law... anyway its a radius of their farm doing really strange things... but they than must follow state laws... In some of the states they make FARM plates for farm trucks so that law enforcement understand that those trucks work under different laws... . But the rules chance for farm operation...



Because we have several trucks and travel to several states and Canada we get a handbook of FEDERAL DOT regulations... its published by 4-5 different companies and is available on a federal web sight... .



At one stop, I didn't fully understand what the officer was telling me, he offered to pull up on the Federal web sight the law and a layman's interpretation of the law for me to better understand... . we just walked back to his vehicle and he pulled it up...



All of the commercial enforcement we've been check by in the past 3-4 years all have active software running on their laptops in there vehicles to run commercial vehicles. .



A couple of months ago I went through an inspection in UT and I can't remember the level of inspection... . but with the check list they put a decal in your window. . the guy pulled off our 08 and installed our 09 sticker... (level A or 1 inspection??) 2 hours later I'm in ID and go into a scale house and am pulled over for the same inspection... . I tell the officer that I just did this 2 hours ago in UT and showed him my inspection receipt... he smiled at me... said "" with the vehicle traffic down 40-50% in our state we've been told to step up enforcement to bring the revenue levels back up... . that means I'm inspection at least twice as many trucks, as all the bad drivers, and trucks are off the road... I know you've been inspected in UT just 2 hours ago... but I've got to do my job, please go sit down and let me do this... I'll be as fast as I can"""" 30 minutes later I've got a second clean bill of health now in 3 hours and am on my way again... .

 

[FFeiller]

the DOT sets the standard each individual state has the option to place more stringent requirements then the minimum guidlines set by the DOT.



CA is you pull a 10k utility trailer with a car you have to have a CDL A it has nothing to do with the 26k total allowed for a class C licese.



also too many guys just pay the minimum weight of their vehicle cost for their tags, that is the limit that can be towed or hauled. if your trucks empty weight is 8k and you pay the fees for the weight 8k you can not haul or tow 1 lb above that without being subject to a fine.



this is CA each state is different. i have a home in nm and their laws are different.



i have a class a because i have a utiltiy trailer that weighs over 10k, (it's 14k)



these discussions go in circles because the states a not consistant.

 

[HBarlow]

Jim is correct and stresses what I have also stated. All states use federal DOT rules as the foundation of their DOT codes. States DOT codes vary very little from federal and only in the driver's licensing and registration/taxation issues.

CA, TX, and other states have recently created a new requirement for a Class A non-commercial license for their own citizens pulling heavy fifth wheel travel trailes but they cannot and do not enforce that requirement on interstate drivers.

Each state does create their own registration/licensing rules for intra-state use but cannot impose their goofy revenue generating rules on interstate traffic.

All one has to do is look to the federal DOT code which is often more clear and easier to understand than some state codes.

A key to understanding sometimes confusing state DOT codes is states may have the power to impose additionally stingent rules on drivers licensed and registered in their own states and operating on their state highways/roadways but they do not have the power to impose their rules on interstate traffic. I am not certain about this but state legislatures may not even have power to impose more stringent weight vs. license rule on interstate highways either.

State codes do not vary when it comes to the fundamental gross tire/axle weight limits, gross vehicle weight limits, and 26,000# single or combined weight limit for non-commercial licensing.

The original poster got in trouble here because as steved pointed out his load appeared too heavy which caught the trooper's eye and two, because he had not paid sufficient road tax to haul that weight.

 

[steved]

Any state can enforce more stringent rules, Federal regs are an absolute "minimum" that must be followed by the states... but the states can enforce any rules they want provided they are more restrictive.



There are two exceptions to this... the state simply adopts Federal regs for their own, or the state accepts less Federal funding and has their own regulations (as with MI and KY, both states allow more than 80k pounds on highways within their borders provided you follow their rules).

 

[CUMMINZ]

X2



I remember the frustration trying to get answers about 10K GVW trailers out of PennDot years ago. Nobody had solid answers, not the DMV or the Troopers who are supposed to enforce the laws. So what do you do? Bet most people in PA do not realize trailers over 3K need annual inspections. No one ever did them, but its in the code! (Or used to be anyway).



NC has both CDL and non-CDL class A, B & C licences. NCDOT Division of Motor Vehicles: Driver Handbook: Chapter 1



Cumminz, did he say anything about the ties hanging over the edge of the trailer? Do you think that might have initially caught his attention?

BR.



He did pull out his tape measure and measured their width. It was 8'9"s. He did make a comment but did not cite me. Good thing,,, they were even with the fenders and my dually flairs were even with the width.

 

[CUMMINZ]

so what does the DMV there give as max tag weight for your truck? Do they use the MFG supplied GVWR or what? where is your allowed max weight stated on your registration?



are they comparing the actual combined weight to the trucks registration allowable weight? in NC, are you required to have registration for your combined weight, at the minimum? here in CA, I register for MFG gross weight (10,500 for my 3500) and max allowable as far as I know is based on combined and the 10k trailer, 26k combined rule. trailer is all by itself



i am getting confused by the slight tangents this thread has taken. am i wrong with my understanding of CA laws as well?

Pavemen,



Here in NC the way my truck is setup.



My door label shows GVW as 12,200#. I am licensed for 10k. I can only allow the weight of my truck to be 10k plus 500#s.

 

[CUMMINZ]

95% of the diesel pickups towing trailers (rv's excluded) on the highway are doing so illegally. This is the first example I've heard of where the laws have actually been upheld.

I agree with you. Most RVers need a class A drivers license.

 

[CUMMINZ]

I went and looked up NC rules for weight and found that its a "declared weight" setup there. Given the section below, I suppose that the OP had his truck tagged for the truck only and did not allow for trailer weights? hence the 9300# overweight?



Chapter 20



§ 20‑88. Property‑hauling vehicles.

(a) Determination of Weight. – For the purpose of licensing, the weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles shall be the empty weight and heaviest load to be transported, as declared by the owner or operator; provided, that any determination of weight shall be made only in units of 1,000 pounds or major fraction thereof, weights of over 500 pounds counted as 1,000 and weights of 500 pounds or less disregarded. The declared gross weight of self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicles operated in conjunction with trailers or semitrailers shall include the empty weight of the vehicles to be operated in the combination and the heaviest load to be transported by such combination at any time during the registration period, except that the gross weight of a trailer or semitrailer is not required to be included when the operation is to be in conjunction with a self‑propelled property‑carrying vehicle which is licensed for 6,000 pounds or less gross weight and the gross weight of such combination does not exceed 9,000 pounds, except wreckers as defined under G. S. 20‑4. 01(50). Those property‑hauling vehicles registered for 4,000 pounds shall be permitted a tolerance of 500 pounds above the weight permitted under the table of weights and rates appearing in subsection (b) of this section.

Pavemen, Your are exactly right.

 

[jgillott]

Cumminz,

I regret that this learning experience cost you $590 but it is a good reason for an informative discussion for the rest of us.

The thread allowed some of us to dig into our memories to recall and clarify what we learned some time before and others to gain new information and understanding.

Many TDR members use their trucks to haul heavy trailers at least on occasion and towing often puts us out on the highways where we are visible to DOT cops. It is good to have an understanding of the laws.

I had owned and pulled heavy RV trailers for many years and work trailers occasionally without having a clue until I went to work for an RV transport company in January 2005. That company, Horizon Transport is one of the most professional in the industry. Horizon operates and requires its drivers to operate in strict compliance with DOT regulations in all states. I learned a lot in their orientation training and from my time on the road for them. Later I worked for another company that required me to pull heavier trailers (over 26k combined) so I got a CDL with ease because of what I had already learned. I don't haul commercially any more but it is good information to know.

I agree, this thread has led to an excellent discussion on the law. It is also interesting to me how different the regulations have been presented from state to state and over the years.

As I was saying to steved last evening, when I went through my company sponsored training in 1993, things were presented somewhat differently. Even our PA photo cards included wording on the backs that differed from what should have been listed according to the Federal CDL guidelines. Even by 1998 when I added my tank vehicle endorsement, the license card still included what I assume to be pre-federal CDL wording. Amazing how something that seems as simple as moving to federal drivers standards can be such a complex issue.

 

[CUMMINZ]

I just love you guys..... :-laf:-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[HBarlow]

Any state can enforce more stringent rules, Federal regs are an absolute "minimum" that must be followed by the states... but the states can enforce any rules they want provided they are more restrictive.

There are two exceptions to this... the state simply adopts Federal regs for their own, or the state accepts less Federal funding and has their own regulations (as with MI and KY, both states allow more than 80k pounds on highways within their borders provided you follow their rules).

If you choose to continue believing that it is your right but for the benefit of open-minded readers wishing to understand the issues under discussion it is not accurate.

Your (socialist) state can obviously impose stricter requirements on the CA driver licenses issued by CA or can require CA drivers pulling their own privately owned heavy fifth wheel travel trailers for personal recreatioinal use to obtain a Class A non-commercial driver's license but CA COULD NOT require me to obtain such a license to pull my own fifth wheel from San Ysidro to Yreka on I-5. CA can choose to allow 100k combination truck weights (greater than the federal limit of 80k) on I-5 but cannot limit interstate traffic to 60k combination weights.

 

[HBarlow]

so what does the DMV there give as max tag weight for your truck? Do they use the MFG supplied GVWR or what? where is your allowed max weight stated on your registration?

are they comparing the actual combined weight to the trucks registration allowable weight? in NC, are you required to have registration for your combined weight, at the minimum? here in CA, I register for MFG gross weight (10,500 for my 3500) and max allowable as far as I know is based on combined and the 10k trailer, 26k combined rule. trailer is all by itself

i am getting confused by the slight tangents this thread has taken. am i wrong with my understanding of CA laws as well?

CA may require truck registration to be at maximum gvwr for the vehicle, many (some?) states do not.

Texas, my home state, still leaves registration weights up to the individual owner which really means the title clerk in the dealership and her counterpart, the title clerks in the local courthouse. Neither of these women has ever read the statute, probably couldn't intepret the statute, and has no idea about weights anyway.

In Texas, at least in the remote and rural couunties, when the dealership sells a pickup the dealership title clerk or finance and insurance manager fills in the blocks of the title application/registration application form block "TARE WEIGHT" with shipping weight, "CARRYING CAPACITY" with 1000lbs (1/2 ton), 1500 lbs. (3/4 ton), or 2,000 lbs. for a one ton truck. In the block GROSS WEIGHT he/she types in the total of the other two blocks.

Few if any title clerks have a clue that a new Ram dually now has a GVWR of 12,500. The dealer's title clerk stubbornly and angrily argued with me three years ago when I asked her to register my newly purchased '06 Ram 3600 drw for 26,000 lbs. She said I couldn't do that! Of course I could and did because at the time I was an RV transporter and the trailers we pulled carried only a transporter plate with no weight specified and no tax paid.

States are looking for additional revenue now and while they formerly overlooked registration weights on intrastate light trucks Cumminz can testify that NC is now looking at that.

IMO opinion everyone who ever carries or hauls a capacity load with their Dodge should review their registered weight. It is simple and easy to upgrade to GVWR of the truck (and trailer). Simply take your checkbook to your nearest courthouse or registration office and tell the clerk you wish to pay more taxes. What clerk will ever refuse that request? Increase the registration of your truck and your trailer to the GVWR printed on the VIN sticker, or higher, if you're hauling a heavy slide-in. It will be cheaper than the $590 Cumminz paid and he still has to go register his truck again and pay the additional weight fees.

 

[brods]

BR.

He did pull out his tape measure and measured their width. It was 8'9"s. He did make a comment but did not cite me. Good thing,,, they were even with the fenders and my dually flairs were even with the width.

I thought 102" (8'6") was max width and after that it is considered a wide load? Is 102" the incorrect maximum federal width?