$590.00 fine yesterday for not enough license

[RossCo]

Trip through US

This has been a great thread to watch.



I am planning a long trip, much of it will be through the states (I live in Canada).



I am just about to buy a heavier trailer but nothing over 10,000#. The problem is I have a '97 4X4 2500 with the 3. 56 rear end. My GCWR is 16,000#, and my truck with nothing in it weighs 7,000# (which leaves 9,000# for trailer, gear, family and dogs).



If I had the 4. 10's my GCWR would be 18,000# (the nice sales lady when I bought the truck new told me it had 4. 10's).



The truck is rated to pull trailer up to 11,900#.



Based on the discussions here (which I realize is mainly about CDL's) it looks like the problems drivers are running into are when their rigs are over 26,000# or the weight of the truck / trailer exceeds the license.



Sorry for the lengthly introduction, but, do I have to worry about the GCWR? and I assume, since I will only be about 17,000# I do not have to worry about upgrading my license.





I recently read an article in CanadianDriver.com where someone had interviewed the Chrysler and Ford tech's on how they come up with the GCWR and the companies used completely different methods - Fords were based on cooling system capacity - Chrysler was based on pulling power (the lesser of the auto or standard for that particular axle ratio).



Based on the different ratings for the 4X4's and the axle ratings I figured it was a way for the companies to reduce warranty claims.



Thanks

 

[CUMMINZ]

CS,



I did notice one difference in my license from yours. Where you have listing for sex is "M" mine is "N" for none. Ha.



#ad

 

[CStringer]

CS,



I did notice one difference in my license from yours. Where you have listing for sex is "M" mine is "N" for none. Ha.

ROFL! been married a few years have ya?? lol :-laf

 

[Grumpytrkr]

I'm going to jump in here if ya'all don't mind. Kind of off subject, and not to give my age away, I was grandfathered into the CDL, and I think it is a pain in the rear. I've been driving big trucks sence the late 70's, and I have never seen a hassle like this CDL thing is. I have never had a ticket or accident. I've got safety awards from Korea to Dow Chemical. The last time I had to renew my CDL, I was asked when the last time I took a exam was. Heck, I don't remember, just the haz-mat. Well, my name came up on the computer, and I had to take 7 written tests to renew my license. Basic knowledge test, basic CDL test, combo test, double test, air brake test, haz mat test, and tanker test. What a hassle.



Anyway, if I get stopped in my pick-up truck, I'll get a ticket, too. My truck set just shy of 9,000 pounds, and I have Veterans Plates, which are only good for 8,000 pounds. However, I got 10,000 pound plates on the trailer, and I don't hit the scales with truck and trailer at 18,000 pounds.



Fight the ticket... ... ... .....

 

[AMink]

While I find this thread interesting, the one thing that I fail to grasp is what is the difference between a 10,000# travel trailer and a 10,000# utility trailer? One you don't need a CDL, one you do? Why a CDL if you're never going to haul commercially? I have a Nevada class C and it says "Cars/Vans/Pickups: may tow a veh < 10,000lbs"



I imagine if NHP wanted to really rake in some money, it could hammer the bigger toy haulers and trailers, but I don't see it happening. Not to say it won't, or even shouldn't.



It seems like these laws are written to be confusing just to separate us from our money. What really takes the cake is when those who really should know what's what, don't.

 

[HBarlow]

RossCo from Victoria, BC: RVs are generally exempt from stopping at weight scales and overall DOT enforcement efforts in the US. As long as your truck and trailer weights do not exceed any tire, axle, or vehicle gross vehicle weight rating you should be ignored. DOT officers do not know or care what the towing rating of your Dodge is. My statement assumes, of course, that you and your equipment meet all the standard requirements of driver's license, vehicle inspection stickers, liability insurance, lights, brakes, tires, safe driving, etc.

Commercial trucks and trucks which could be used for a commercial purpose are required to comply with DOT rules and regulations. For example, the OP's trailer hauling railroad ties looked like he could be a landscaper or other contractor engaged in commercial activity.

The issue of who is subject to the regulations can be viewed as all the rules apply to all cargo carrying vehicles on the highways but recreational vehicles in private use are exempt.

 

[HBarlow]

While I find this thread interesting, the one thing that I fail to grasp is what is the difference between a 10,000# travel trailer and a 10,000# utility trailer? One you don't need a CDL, one you do? Why a CDL if you're never going to haul commercially? I have a Nevada class C and it says "Cars/Vans/Pickups: may tow a veh < 10,000lbs"

I imagine if NHP wanted to really rake in some money, it could hammer the bigger toy haulers and trailers, but I don't see it happening. Not to say it won't, or even shouldn't.

It seems like these laws are written to be confusing just to separate us from our money. What really takes the cake is when those who really should know what's what, don't.

You don't need a CDL for the situation you described. The need for a CDL is based on commercial activity, and weight, but not weight only. It is that detail which is often overlooked or a bit hard to comprehend in some of our discussions.

Many states are now requiring a Class A operator's license for towing heavy trailers including RV trailers, but not a CDL. The training is the same.

A CDL is not required, even for commercial activity, until the 26,000 lb. combined weight or combined weight rating is exceeded.

For example, as a commercial RV transporter working 48 states and Canada I was not required to hold a CDL Class A . . . as long as the trailers I pulled did not put me above a combined scale weight of 26,000 lbs. . . . or, combined rated weight of 26,000 lbs. If my truck's max GVWR added to the max GVWR of the trailer I was pulling totalled in excess of 26,000 lbs. , even though the trailer was empty and dry and actual weight was 2,000 lbs. under max GVWR, I was subject to fines w/o a CDL. Once I obtained a CDL A the rated weight no longer mattered, only the actual weight mattered.

The point here is DOT regulations allow a driver to haul commercially as long as he operates light equipment that does not exceed and is not capable of exceeding 13 tons.

Yeah, I know, it's all confusing.

 

[HBarlow]

Cumminz,

I was thinking of the discussion of yesterday and realized I may have been wrong because I got hung up in the commercial activity side of the issue and overlooked the exempt private use rules.

The NC DOT cop may have been telling you that you could legally drive a rental box truck rated at 26,000 lbs. AND pull a trailer weighing under 10k lbs. because that would be non-commercial activity not subject to DOT regulations.

I tend to think in terms of commercial applications when I get into this subject because everything I have learned and experienced was based on my experience as a commercial RV transporter. Before I was a transporter I didn't know anything about DOT regulations and didn't think I had to.

 

[CUMMINZ]

HB,



I think all the discussion here has been a great learning experience for all posters. It is a thread like this where there has been no mud slinging and just good old info coming out that makes TDR's efforts to provide the forum such a non-Obama good thing. :-laf:-lafTDR:-laf:-laf.



I think it really shows that an entire industry has been led down a wrong road. "RVers are exempt" Exempt from what? The RV saleman don't give a rats butt what kinda drivers license their buyers have. But making that statement at the time of sale burns into their memory that their customer is OK in pulling an travel trailer or 5er that is over 10k without a class A license. You better bet they will start cracking down.

 

[CStringer]

According to OH state law, if you pull a trailer with a gvw of 10,001 lb, (again, RV's exempt) you must have a COMMERCIAL DRIVERS LICENSE, CLASS A. Even if you are pulling that trailer empty, and you hit the scale at say, 11k (empty truck, empty trailer) gotta have a CDL class A... Here they dont care what you weigh, they go off of gvw's. Thats why the officer who stopped me, told me I need a class a. I was under 26k weight, but my gn had a gvw of 14k, which automatically falls into the class a category. Ill post up the lil picture in the cdl manual this afternoon which is actually very informative on who needs what for what reason

 

[CStringer]

ok, this isnt the exact page I was looking for but hopefully it helps. again, as weve discussed, laws differ from state to state but:

#ad

 

[brods]

For commercial use it is pretty straight forward when you need a CDL. For personal use it seems not so clear.



Michigan has this text under exceptions to who needs a CDL SOS - Who Needs a CDL? :

Individuals: Operating motor homes or other vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members, for non-business purposes.

I take that as meaning a CDL in Michigan is not needed to drive my personal use vehicle or combination over 26,000 lbs. Seems every state I’ve looked at has similar exceptions, but I do not see any personal use exceptions mentioned on the fed dot site. Since the states must meet or exceed the federal minimum standards, it follows that these state exceptions have to be allowed on the federal level, yes?



So the question is: If you are driving a vehicle or vehicle combination with a total GVWR over 26K, for personal use only, not for profit, not as part of a business or for any business related reasons and you are in compliance with all your home state licencing requirements, do you need a CDL to cross state lines?

 

[steved]

If you choose to continue believing that it is your right but for the benefit of open-minded readers wishing to understand the issues under discussion it is not accurate.

And how many of the people reading this very thread ever venture from their home state? The laws in YOUR home state are what matter, period. Unless you travel outside your home state, that is the law you need to know. If you hadn't noticed, CUMMINZ got ticketed in his own home state.



You also act like everyone on this forum is a professional truck driver, probably 90% reading this have never driven anything larger than a pickup. And most of us assumed that towing and hauling "laws" only applied to big commercial trucks, and not a private pickup. Until recently, pickups flew under the radar and were simply ignored... but now (as eluded to by others) the DOT has realized the revenue to be had by targeting pickups, mainly because most private pickup truck owners are often ignorant of the laws governing them on the highways.



The main issue stems from the fact that private pickup owners are not informed that they have rules they need to follow... when was the last time you bought a pickup and the salesman told you what you can legally haul?? Like a salesman would know, but just for example. Where do you find this info out? I have seen two different DOT officer recite the law (read: interpret) slightly different... obviously that doesn't help. The laws we've pulled from the state codes of regulation are confusing... what applies to a commercial and what applies to me?? And the RV industry is horrible... they just want to sell an RV, so whatever you have will tow/haul whatever you're looking at. How many here actually knew they had laws to follow (and not just a GVW/GVCW "recomendation" in the owners' manual)?



IMO, the hotshotters are one of the main reasons all pickup truck owners are now scrutinized, because there was such a increase in them just a few years ago (I am not saying hotshotters are illegal, just that it was such a large number for DOT to target for revenue). And unfortunately, their attempts to capture the outlaws has made the rest of us (private or commercial) out to be outlaws (guilty by association) and forced us to know the law that applies to us.



In short, CUMMINZ was nailed for "evading" registration fees, and was more/less legal otherwise (we'll over look the width thing)... he was well within his towing capacity and GVWs, and otherwise "safe". He got ticketed because he had not paid the government to haul that kind of weight... and the government does not like to be cheated of their money. It had nothing to do with safety, but the simple fact he failed to pay the government to use that equipment to haul that weight on their roads.



And NGM, if you have any race decal, numbers, names, sponsors, etc on your truck/trailer... some states (Virginia in particular) will use this to call you out as "commercial" (their reasoning is that you can potentially be paid for "winning", and therefore are using your equipment to make money) and will scrutinize you the same as OTR trucks. Just something to be aware of... I read about them harassing offroaders only a few years ago.

 

[steved]

So the question is: If you are driving a vehicle or vehicle combination with a total GVWR over 26K, for personal use only, not for profit, not as part of a business or for any business related reasons and you are in compliance with all your home state licencing requirements, do you need a CDL to cross state lines?

Once you cross the state line, you need to follow Federal DOT rules. I would assume, based on what Barlow has stated several times, as long as you don't exceed 26k combined, you don't need a CDL (outside your home state).

 

[HBarlow]

And how many of the people reading this very thread ever venture from their home state? The laws in YOUR home state are what matter, period. Unless you travel outside your home state, that is the law you need to know. If you hadn't noticed, CUMMINZ got ticketed in his own home state.

probably 90% reading this have never driven anything larger than a pickup. And most of us assumed that towing and hauling "laws" only applied to big commercial trucks, and not a private pickup. Until recently, pickups flew under the radar and were simply ignored... but now (as eluded to by others) the DOT has realized the revenue to be had by targeting pickups, mainly because most private pickup truck owners are often ignorant of the laws governing them on the highways.

The main issue stems from the fact that private pickup owners are not informed tha
t they have rules they need to follow... when was the last time you bought a pickup and the salesman told you what you can legally haul?? Like a salesman would know, but just for example. Where do you find this info out? I have seen two different DOT officer recite the law (read: interpret) slightly different... obviously that doesn't help. The laws we've pulled from the state codes of regulation are confusing... what applies to a commercial and what applies to me?? And the RV industry is horrible... they just want to sell an RV, so whatever you have will tow/haul whatever you're looking at. How many here actually knew they had laws to follow (and not just a GVW/GVCW "recomendation" in the owners' manual)?

IMO, the hotshotters are one of the main reasons all pickup truck owners are now scrutinized, because there was such a increase in them just a few years ago (I am not saying hotshotters are illegal, just that it was such a large number for DOT to target for revenue). And unfortunately, their attempts to capture the outlaws has made the rest of us (private or commercial) out to be outlaws (guilty by association) and forced us to know the law that applies to us.

In short, CUMMINZ was nailed for "evading" registration fees, and was more/less legal otherwise (we'll over look the width thing)... he was well within his towing capacity and GVWs, and otherwise "safe". He got ticketed because he had not paid the government to haul that kind of weight... and the government does not like to be cheated of their money. It had nothing to do with safety, but the simple fact he failed to pay the government to use that equipment to haul that weight on their roads.

And NGM, if you have any race decal, numbers, names, sponsors, etc on your truck/trailer... some states (Virginia in particular) will use this to call you out as "commercial" (their reasoning is that you can potentially be paid for "winning", and therefore are using your equipment to make money) and will scrutinize you the same as OTR trucks. Just something to be aware of... I read about them harassing offroaders only a few years ago.

I learned the phrase "ignorance of the law is no excuse" long ago, perhaps when I was still a student. No one else has a responsibility to educate you. Knowing the law is your responsibility.

The questions about towing come up quite frequently here. It is clear that most TDR members have at least a suspicion that laws apply to pulling trailers on the public roadways. That is often the reason we get threads to the effect that someone has been asked to move a heavy trailer across state lines and they wonder if they can do it.

It's interesting that you think I "also act like everyone on this forum is a professional truck driver. " Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. I am very aware that most here do not understand the DOT rules and that is precisely the reason I often attempt to correct misinformation or to explain so that other who don't know but wish to know can understand.

 

[Bigiron]

A little more info that may save someone a stop by the HP. I drive a 3500 tagged at 12000lbs and a 40' gooseneck in MN tagged for 15000lbs. I have a class A CDL so I am legal nation wide. I was pulled over in Iowa for not stoppping at the weigh station. I was told that ALL trucks over 10000lbs GVW have to drive across the scales or you can be fined 110. 00 for not doing so. I was given a warning and let go. The Farmers are exempt on many things we are not allowed to do. Also I do not have a Commercial Inspection because I am a Hobbiest for Drag Racing. That means I can not deduct my expenses and do not claim any winnings as income for a business. It is correct that you can not pull a trailer over 10000lbs on a C license.

 

[HBarlow]

For commercial use it is pretty straight forward when you need a CDL. For personal use it seems not so clear.

Michigan has this text under exceptions to who needs a CDL SOS - Who Needs a CDL? : I take that as meaning a CDL in Michigan is not needed to drive my personal use vehicle or combination over 26,000 lbs. Seems every state I've looked at has similar exceptions, but I do not see any personal use exceptions mentioned on the fed dot site. Since the states must meet or exceed the federal minimum standards, it follows that these state exceptions have to be allowed on the federal level, yes?

So the question is: If you are driving a vehicle or vehicle combination with a total GVWR over 26K, for personal use only, not for profit, not as part of a business or for any business related reasons and you are in compliance with all your home state licencing requirements, do you need a CDL to cross state lines?

The answer to your question as written is a clear NO. Crossing state lines does not change the basic premise. It is personal, private, not for profit, not for business, and remains the same when you cross state lines.

Federal DOT regulations generally lay out requirements, not exceptions.

For some who are following this thread it is worth mentioning, there are details to consider. No driver who is driving his or her own personal equipment for recreation or personal use, even when his combination weighs or could weigh in excess of 26,000 lbs. is required to have a CDL. Generally that often means only a recreational vehicle.

On edit: I forgot to mention that perhaps because states cannot require a private owner who is pulling his very heavy fifth wheel or driving his monster diesel pusher motorhome to have a CDL, some states are now requiring such owner/drivers to obtain a Class A or B operator's license which involves the same testing requirements as a CDL. I dislike and resist addional regulation but I have no strong argument against the states who do require drivers of heavy vehicles for personal use to obtain additional training and certification to pull huge fivers or drive huge diesel pusher motorhomes.

If, for example, the person is a landscaper who is pulling his own bulldozer or backhoe on his own trailer pulled by his own truck that is not personal use. That person is transporting equipment which he uses to earn his living ie provide a service to another person for compensation. That is commercial activity. The equipment is subject to federal DOT rules when crossing state lines but is also subject to the same rules within his own state, even if he never crosses state lines.

Likewise a plumber, HVAC contractor, painter, welder, roofer, or any other profession or employment that transports heavy equipment used to provide service for hire. Some believe or would like to believe that the word "commercial" when used in this context only means commercial transportation or transportation for hire. That is not true.

As I wrote in an earlier post, it is possible to engage in commercial transportation activity and still not be required to have a CDL. The transportation must be commercial AND involve equipment or a combination of equipment that has an actual weight in excess of 13 tons OR a rated weight in excess of 13 tons.

That is the reason that Freightliner, International/Navistar/Isuzu/Mitsubishi and other medium duty truck builders build some class 6 trucks with a GVWR of 25,999 lbs. Many box trucks are rated at 25,999 lbs. so company drivers won't have to hold a CDL.

As I explained in an earlier post, many RV transporters who pull commercially for-hire in 48 states do not have and are not required to have a CDL as long as they make sure they know exactly what the GVWR of their truck is as well as the GVWR of the trailer they are pulling. Some RV transporters prefer keeping their old high-mileage Gen II dually Dodges rather than having a new Gen III truck. Why? As most of you know 2wd '01 duallies had a GVWR tag of 10,500# so they could haul a heavy fiver rated at 15,500#. Their buddy with a later model Dodge dually w/GVWR of 12,500 is limited to a trailer w/GVWR of 13,500.

 

[domehead]

Hmm here in SC you have to have a P plate if you are planning on towing anything over a small lawn mower trailer. I have paid the addtional dollars to have a 26,000 pound rated plate just to stay legal.



It's all ambout the money the state can get nothing else.

 

[DodgeWarlock]

So this has been a point of interest for me for awhile. I have an aunt who pulls her 26' rv(might be 28') behind her F-350 single wheel 4x4. She was stopped for having standard plates on her truck by a trooper here in AL. So she went in and paid the bucks for commercial truck plates like the officer told her she needed.



After her warning I asked about this when we renewed our plates. We have a 20' 14000# gvw equipment trailer that we use for transporting our personal vehicles and occassionally some lumber. When I asked, I was shown a sign on the wall that stated that as long as my truck or truck/trailer combo was for personal use and did not exceed the 26000# commercial limit, all that was required was a standard plate. I asked for and received a copy of this posting, which now rides in my center console at all times.



As for my DL, when I recently renewed, I was told that the same rules applied to my license which is simply a standard DM operator's license. This from the troopers at the licensing office. They stated that the A,B,C classes were for commercial licensing only and did not apply to my usage.

 

[FFeiller]

someone ought to write a book on each states particular adaptation of the law.



of course just trying to get a consistent straight answer from the DMV in CA would be a book in itself.